In article ,
Larry wrote:

tlindly wrote in news:1180424314.345874.99050
@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

show something less depending {I reckon} on their quality]

I love the "quality" hype. One plate is lead. One plate is lead
dioxide. The electrolyte is gauze soaked with a dilute solution of
H2SO4. The quality is in the label and plastic case.

Torn apart, and I have torn them apart, I don't see any quality inside.
You gotta go to a "quality" battery factory to believe it. Exide makes
"quality" batteries. Their plant was in Sumter, SC. It wasn't like a
laboratory, I can tell you. It's a dirty, nasty, smelly business making
batteries. You wouldn't wanna work there....(c; None of them are made
in a laboratory just for you.

snip

This reminds me of an article in a 1950's 'Practical Motorist' regarding
resuscitating old batteries.

It showed diagrammes of the old battery with the bottom edge of the
plates eaten away (before). Their article explained that you should cut
off the top of the battery and reverse these plates (after), as the
electrolysis worked at the bottom and reversing the plates doubled the
life...

They also had an article about how to build a sidecar out of an old
greenhouse..

:-)

Molesworth

"Molesworth" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Larry wrote:

tlindly wrote in news:1180424314.345874.99050
@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

show something less depending {I reckon} on their quality]

I love the "quality" hype. One plate is lead. One plate is lead
dioxide. The electrolyte is gauze soaked with a dilute solution of
H2SO4. The quality is in the label and plastic case.

Torn apart, and I have torn them apart, I don't see any quality
inside.
You gotta go to a "quality" battery factory to believe it. Exide
makes
"quality" batteries. Their plant was in Sumter, SC. It wasn't like
a
laboratory, I can tell you. It's a dirty, nasty, smelly business
making
batteries. You wouldn't wanna work there....(c; None of them are
made
in a laboratory just for you.

snip

This reminds me of an article in a 1950's 'Practical Motorist'
regarding
resuscitating old batteries.

It showed diagrammes of the old battery with the bottom edge of the
plates eaten away (before). Their article explained that you should
cut
off the top of the battery and reverse these plates (after), as the
electrolysis worked at the bottom and reversing the plates doubled the
life...

They also had an article about how to build a sidecar out of an old
greenhouse..

:-)

Molesworth

Jay Leno has a couple of old electric cars in his garage. There was an
article in Popular Mechanics a month or so ago about his Baker electric
that had batteries that were re-buildable. (alkaline batteries???) Said
they have lead plates and use acid??There was a picture of him holding
one and it looked about the same size and shape as a 12volt starting
battery size 27. It said they could be rebuilt indefinitely which is
good since they were about a hundred years old already.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...e/4215940.html

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in news:ew%
:

Jay Leno has a couple of old electric cars in his garage. There was an
article in Popular Mechanics a month or so ago about his Baker electric
that had batteries that were re-buildable. (alkaline batteries???) Said
they have lead plates and use acid??There was a picture of him holding
one and it looked about the same size and shape as a 12volt starting
battery size 27. It said they could be rebuilt indefinitely which is
good since they were about a hundred years old already.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...e/4215940.html

Wilbur Hubbard



Those batteries are Nickel-Iron "Edison" cells, like those used in older
fork lift trucks. They don't need rebuilding, almost ever. I have a set
of them that makes 14VDC for emergency power on my ham station. They
only require distilled water, which they do consume naturally with
charging. My cells came out of the Holiday Inn in Orangeburg, SC, in
1973. The date on them is 1958 when the Holiday Inn bought them for
backup power supply for their operator plugged internal telephone system.
When I got them, that system was scrapped for an automatic Bell$outh
exchange. The innkeeper was a ham radio friend of mine.

The cells are like NiCd or Ni-Mh...only 1.2V/cell. I have 12 cells in
series. They are not very efficient batteries, as you can read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_battery
Waldemar Jungner, a Swede, invented them, but didn't produce them. As
with lots of other devices, Thomas Edison stole the design and called it
his, producing them in 1903. His interest, of course, was to put them in
every home to power the house with Edison's biggest mistake, DC power.
Tesla put an end to that nonsense at Niagara Falls, powering Rochester
and Buffalo with multiphase AC that's in your house today with his
flourescent and vapor arc lamps.

Reliability in constant use, which just kills lead-acid batteries as you
all know, is the reason for NiFe's use in high use forklifts until the
government bureaucrats forced Exide, who bought Edison's company and
patents, out of the nickel battery business in 1972. They made them in
Sumter, SC, where I lived, but made the stupid mistake of polluting the
ground with Nickel, ruining the ground water to peoples' wells for miles
and miles around the plant. Exide paid dearly in court, to the lawyers,
of course, not the well owners who had to fend for themselves with a
pittance. Only China produces Nickel batteries now, unconcerned with
pollution, of course.

You don't want them on your boat. Only problem with that use is you MUST
be able to water them, frequently. The electrolyte is potassium
hydroxide, a base not an acid. Unlike lead sulphate, which precipitates
and consumes lead batteries, the ions in a NiFe battery are fully
recoverable, even years after being left for dead. My cells were all
dead when I got them. Two required more potassium hydroxide to bring
them back to life and balance their odd specific gravity. You also
cannot confine them. The caps are explosion proof filtered vents on
mine. They gas something awful all the time the charger is on them...not
good in a boat. I leave them on a wooden pallet under my house, outside.
They are so heavy, I doubt anyone will just haul them away. They'd make
great ballast...(c; My cells weigh about 300# EACH and are 850AH. I run
a float charger I built for them in the 1970's on them, constantly,
because they leak a lot, self discharging in a month or two.

They are super rugged. You cannot overcharge them! If you charge too
hard or too long or overvoltage, they simply gas off your water and turn
your cells into a hydrogen generator. WHATEVER you do DO NOT SHORT THEM!
They will simply vaporize #0 welding cable in a flash! They have an
amazing current producing capability and very low internal
resistance...as long as they are not cold, not an issue in SC.

Noone makes them, any more, because of the pollution problem of
manufacturing and EXPENSE. AGM batteries would look really cheap next to
a new NiFe bank. Nickel is amazingly expensive in microdollarettes. You
need LOTS of Nickel in them. The other thing is our throw-away
mentality. We can't see beyond the end of our noses to any long-term
investments like having a set of batteries you'd move from place to
place, not needing to replace them....maybe ever. Long term, their price
point is cheaper than lead, but it wouldn't sell.

Larry
--
Many hams here are already waiting for me to kick the bucket so they can
take my set home.....(c;

Interesting insight. Thanks.

Wilbur Hubbard


"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in news:ew%
:

Jay Leno has a couple of old electric cars in his garage. There was
an
article in Popular Mechanics a month or so ago about his Baker
electric
that had batteries that were re-buildable. (alkaline batteries???)
Said
they have lead plates and use acid??There was a picture of him
holding
one and it looked about the same size and shape as a 12volt starting
battery size 27. It said they could be rebuilt indefinitely which is
good since they were about a hundred years old already.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...e/4215940.html

Wilbur Hubbard



Those batteries are Nickel-Iron "Edison" cells, like those used in
older
fork lift trucks. They don't need rebuilding, almost ever. I have a
set
of them that makes 14VDC for emergency power on my ham station. They
only require distilled water, which they do consume naturally with
charging. My cells came out of the Holiday Inn in Orangeburg, SC, in
1973. The date on them is 1958 when the Holiday Inn bought them for
backup power supply for their operator plugged internal telephone
system.
When I got them, that system was scrapped for an automatic Bell$outh
exchange. The innkeeper was a ham radio friend of mine.

The cells are like NiCd or Ni-Mh...only 1.2V/cell. I have 12 cells in
series. They are not very efficient batteries, as you can read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_battery
Waldemar Jungner, a Swede, invented them, but didn't produce them. As
with lots of other devices, Thomas Edison stole the design and called
it
his, producing them in 1903. His interest, of course, was to put them
in
every home to power the house with Edison's biggest mistake, DC power.
Tesla put an end to that nonsense at Niagara Falls, powering Rochester
and Buffalo with multiphase AC that's in your house today with his
flourescent and vapor arc lamps.

Reliability in constant use, which just kills lead-acid batteries as
you
all know, is the reason for NiFe's use in high use forklifts until the
government bureaucrats forced Exide, who bought Edison's company and
patents, out of the nickel battery business in 1972. They made them
in
Sumter, SC, where I lived, but made the stupid mistake of polluting
the
ground with Nickel, ruining the ground water to peoples' wells for
miles
and miles around the plant. Exide paid dearly in court, to the
lawyers,
of course, not the well owners who had to fend for themselves with a
pittance. Only China produces Nickel batteries now, unconcerned with
pollution, of course.

You don't want them on your boat. Only problem with that use is you
MUST
be able to water them, frequently. The electrolyte is potassium
hydroxide, a base not an acid. Unlike lead sulphate, which
precipitates
and consumes lead batteries, the ions in a NiFe battery are fully
recoverable, even years after being left for dead. My cells were all
dead when I got them. Two required more potassium hydroxide to bring
them back to life and balance their odd specific gravity. You also
cannot confine them. The caps are explosion proof filtered vents on
mine. They gas something awful all the time the charger is on
them...not
good in a boat. I leave them on a wooden pallet under my house,
outside.
They are so heavy, I doubt anyone will just haul them away. They'd
make
great ballast...(c; My cells weigh about 300# EACH and are 850AH. I
run
a float charger I built for them in the 1970's on them, constantly,
because they leak a lot, self discharging in a month or two.

They are super rugged. You cannot overcharge them! If you charge too
hard or too long or overvoltage, they simply gas off your water and
turn
your cells into a hydrogen generator. WHATEVER you do DO NOT SHORT
THEM!
They will simply vaporize #0 welding cable in a flash! They have an
amazing current producing capability and very low internal
resistance...as long as they are not cold, not an issue in SC.

Noone makes them, any more, because of the pollution problem of
manufacturing and EXPENSE. AGM batteries would look really cheap next
to
a new NiFe bank. Nickel is amazingly expensive in microdollarettes.
You
need LOTS of Nickel in them. The other thing is our throw-away
mentality. We can't see beyond the end of our noses to any long-term
investments like having a set of batteries you'd move from place to
place, not needing to replace them....maybe ever. Long term, their
price
point is cheaper than lead, but it wouldn't sell.

Larry
--
Many hams here are already waiting for me to kick the bucket so they
can
take my set home.....(c;

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

Both Batteries were charged on full last night for 3 hours .
I put some lights on them for 2-3mins before checking voltage to
remove the surface charge (as advised by Ken Heaton).
They showed 12.69V and are sitting steady. Will leave them to settle
until till tomorrow evening then start using them and try and figure
out their performance over the next few days.

* navti wrote, On 5/30/2007 2:29 AM:
UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

Both Batteries were charged on full last night for 3 hours .
I put some lights on them for 2-3mins before checking voltage to
remove the surface charge (as advised by Ken Heaton).
They showed 12.69V and are sitting steady. Will leave them to settle
until till tomorrow evening then start using them and try and figure
out their performance over the next few days.

This means they are not totally dead. Only a load test (which could
simply be running a bright light for a while) will tell if the
capacity is seriously diminished. Unfortunately, the capacity could
be well below 50% and they would still behave like yours. With
traditional wet cells, the electrolyte can be sampled, making this a
bit easier. With AGM's you really have to measure how much they can
deliver before the voltage gets too low. Each battery is a bit
different, so there's no formula that says if "10 Amp hours drops the
voltage 0.1V, you have X capacity." You should get guidance from the
factory - they may be able to give a procedure that would be far more
accurate than the guesses you get on this board.

On May 30, 1:22 pm, Jeff wrote:
* navti wrote, On 5/30/2007 2:29 AM: UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

Both Batteries were charged on full last night for 3 hours .
I put some lights on them for 2-3mins before checking voltage to
remove the surface charge (as advised by Ken Heaton).
They showed 12.69V and are sitting steady. Will leave them to settle
until till tomorrow evening then start using them and try and figure
out their performance over the next few days.

This means they are not totally dead. Only a load test (which could
simply be running a bright light for a while) will tell if the
capacity is seriously diminished. Unfortunately, the capacity could
be well below 50% and they would still behave like yours. With
traditional wet cells, the electrolyte can be sampled, making this a
bit easier. With AGM's you really have to measure how much they can
deliver before the voltage gets too low.

Jeff

I am curious as to how the battery capacity can be 50 % diminished and
still deliver 12.6 volts (or thereabouts.

Are the individual cells in the battery wired in series or parallel ?

If I had four 12 volt cells wired in parrallel each with a capacity of
10 amp hours then I would have 40 amp hours at 12 volts,

If one cell went dead then I would have 30 amp hours at 12 volts,

If I had four 3 volt cells wired in series each with a capacity of 10
amp hours then I would have 10 amp hours at 12 volts,

If one cell went dead then I would have 10 amp hours at 9 volts,

How does it go with my battery ? Is it a combination of series and
parallel ?

navti wrote in news:1180506549.946816.47150
@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

They showed 12.69V

Dead cell. 13.6 to 13.8V is "normal" on a fully charged battery....



Larry
--
Grade School Physics Factoid:
A building cannot freefall into its own footprint without
skilled demolition.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
navti wrote in news:1180506549.946816.47150
@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

They showed 12.69V

Dead cell. 13.6 to 13.8V is "normal" on a fully charged battery....



Larry
--
Grade School Physics Factoid:
A building cannot freefall into its own footprint without
skilled demolition.

If the battery was dead when you got it and you charged it for 3 hours I
would suspect that that it is about 50% charged. 12.69V seems reasonable.
I would suggest you continue charging.

* Larry wrote, On 5/30/2007 4:50 PM:
navti wrote in news:1180506549.946816.47150
@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

They showed 12.69V

Dead cell. 13.6 to 13.8V is "normal" on a fully charged battery....

This is total nonsense and mis-information. Once the charger is
turned off, and the surface charge is "burned off" the voltage will
drop to around 12.7V, give or take a tenth. This is the norm for
flooded batteries, but there is more variation for gel (which is often
a tad higher) and AGM. The float voltage used for AGMs is usually
rather low, around 13.2, so claiming that it has to be at 13.6 to be
fully charged is nonsense.

Here's a data sheet for Lifeline AGM batteries, one of the major
brands in the USA. You can clearly see the "Open Circuit Charge" for
100% charge is 12.8 Volts.

Note also, that as I mentioned in a previous post, AGMs can be
equalized to restore some lost potency.

http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/mch...procedures.php