"Capt. JG"

Like all these threads, this one shows that different priorities are at work
in different parts of the world, and give rise to different practices.

UK winter sailing is a cool affair - 6degC is not uncommon. I lost an
aviator friend who bailed out into our North sea. He was recovered from the
water within 15 minutes, but died. A couple of years later a very
experienced skipper (James) went over the side in light conditions off
Salcombe, Devon, 10degC. With a strong crew of four aboard, they were unable
to recover him quickly enough (they estimated 15 minutes) and he died. A
second crew member who went in to tie a line around him also became
seriously hypothermic, but survived. No ladder.

I make two points now.

First, the variability of different people's ability to withstand cold shock
is great. An average of 20 minutes covers a range from 5 minutes to an hour
and a half.

Second, the majority of MOBs occur in benign conditions when people aren't
wearing harnesses, and don't have them attached - a passing wash, peeing
over the stern, transferring from dinghy to boat, slipping when stepping
from shore to vessel (alcohol doesn't help). These are common situations,
and people are off gaurd. Also, more MOB occur in crowded and moderately
sheltered waters - 'cos that's where the yachts are, often racing.

In my opinion there's too much emphasis on the more remote situations among
trainers, leading them to dismiss the mundane. I was guilty once - til I
started analysing the stats.

And, JG, it's naughty of you to assume I'm stupid enough to jump into the
sea to attempt to rescue an MOB. And equally naughty to dismiss the stern
ladder because, in your opinion, it doesn't work in very rough weather.
Remember the common situations . . .

You trained people to use halyards. So did I. In the same sessions I also
trained people to use stern ladders, and left them to choose which technique
they preferred. As I said above, horses for courses . . . depends on the
conditions. I still think it's stupid to go to sea on a boat which doesn't
have a stern bathing ladder which can be deployed from within the water . .
..

JimB
www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
Comparing European Cruise areas, with detail on Greece.

"News f2s" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG"

Like all these threads, this one shows that different priorities are at
work in different parts of the world, and give rise to different
practices.

Yes, absolutely true.. I think there are some basic similarities, but
different areas require different knowledge and possible different
techniques.


UK winter sailing is a cool affair - 6degC is not uncommon. I lost an
aviator friend who bailed out into our North sea. He was recovered from
the water within 15 minutes, but died. A couple of years later a very
experienced skipper (James) went over the side in light conditions off
Salcombe, Devon, 10degC. With a strong crew of four aboard, they were
unable to recover him quickly enough (they estimated 15 minutes) and he
died. A second crew member who went in to tie a line around him also
became seriously hypothermic, but survived. No ladder.

In the SF bay, we lose people every year due to the cold water (a bit over
10 deg. C.) Some people survive the plunge but then have a heart attack from
the stress for example. Some are in the water for several hours, some for
just a few minutes. Most MOBs don't happen in benign conditions (well,
20+kts wind, 4+ kts current, 55 degree water, 4-5+ foot chop) in the bay.

I make two points now.

First, the variability of different people's ability to withstand cold
shock is great. An average of 20 minutes covers a range from 5 minutes to
an hour and a half.

True enough.

Second, the majority of MOBs occur in benign conditions when people aren't
wearing harnesses, and don't have them attached - a passing wash, peeing
over the stern, transferring from dinghy to boat, slipping when stepping
from shore to vessel (alcohol doesn't help). These are common situations,
and people are off gaurd. Also, more MOB occur in crowded and moderately
sheltered waters - 'cos that's where the yachts are, often racing.

Also true, but I don't think that's where this thread was going.... when
people do stupid things, such as peeing off the stern, all bets are off.
But, these don't require a full-blown effort to rescue them unless there are
other facts involved... e.g., more than the MOB under the influence of
alcohol for example. There are lots of people chopped up by their own props
from PWCs too... I think that's a different discussion.

In my opinion there's too much emphasis on the more remote situations
among trainers, leading them to dismiss the mundane. I was guilty once -
til I started analysing the stats.

Well, perhaps were you are... out here you have to be able to get back to
the person, to stop the boat, attach them to the boat, and recover them if
you want to save their life. The mudane conditions are usually preventable.
Our concern is when someone goes up on deck in the bay or near shore in less
than idea conditions, slips and goes over.

And, JG, it's naughty of you to assume I'm stupid enough to jump into the
sea to attempt to rescue an MOB. And equally naughty to dismiss the stern
ladder because, in your opinion, it doesn't work in very rough weather.
Remember the common situations . . .

If I implied that I apologize. I will say that we've seen incidents where
otherwise intelligent people have jumped in to save someone and became
victims themselves. I will continue to insist that a stern ladder recovery
generally does not work in very rough conditions. I also will continue to
insist that it is not the best way to try, and that there are other methods
(previously outlined) that are more effective and more safe. Out here, rough
conditions are commonplace.

You trained people to use halyards. So did I. In the same sessions I also
trained people to use stern ladders, and left them to choose which
technique they preferred. As I said above, horses for courses . . .
depends on the conditions. I still think it's stupid to go to sea on a
boat which doesn't have a stern bathing ladder which can be deployed from
within the water . . .

We don't train people in every possible technique for crew recovery. We do
train them in the techniques we feel are likely to be useful in the
conditions at hand. It's kind of like the joking that goes on when there's
no wind on a warm day at slack, while we're at anchor for lunch. I ask
students what they would do if someone fell off right now... what technique
would you use to get them back in the boat. I typically get all sorts of
answers... use the halyards, break out the Lifesling... you name it. I say
no to all of it... I tell them to tell the MOB to get back in the damn boat.
g


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:

We don't train people in every possible technique for crew recovery. We do
train them in the techniques we feel are likely to be useful in the
conditions at hand. It's kind of like the joking that goes on when there's
no wind on a warm day at slack, while we're at anchor for lunch. I ask
students what they would do if someone fell off right now... what technique
would you use to get them back in the boat. I typically get all sorts of
answers... use the halyards, break out the Lifesling... you name it. I say
no to all of it... I tell them to tell the MOB to get back in the damn boat.
g




Don Wo