This seems to be the best thread in which to insert this...

George Huffman, of "The Dinghy Dock" newsletter, made a post in
Renegades, offering his help as soon as his own vehicular challenges
are resolved...

Hi, George, and onlookers,

It keeps getting better...

The transportation issue isn't yet resolved - but there's a distinct
possibility in the area.

I just got a mail from my surveyor, ex-QC and Service Manager for
Morgan during the entire time of building our boats.

The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the
bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.),
just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will
rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your
uncle!"

I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs,
e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity,
or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will
suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already
labor intensive project into something far more manageable.

I'm already into project management mode, but Lydia's still in full
depression, as the enormity of the elephant she has to eat is still
too close to analyze. She doesn't do patience, or methodical long-
term results. "Lord, give me patience - and I want it *right now!!!*
- funny, but unfortunately true for her generally, let alone under
these circumstances.

Yet, all this will pass, and we'll have the most amazing stories to
tell around the potlucks out in the Caribbean, or to the BoyScouts we
might do charters for on their Extreme Adventure series "Sail the
Keys" once this is all settled.

Not quite Robinson Cruso, or the other which escapes me about the
swiss family, but still entertaining, if you don't have to deal with
the pain of the real possibility of losing your home and every one of
your possessions.

Yet, I'm struck by how fortunate we are in comparison, for example, of
some of the Rita/Katrina/Wilma/Ivan survivors. We're truly blessed,
including by such as you all.

Love to all of you kind souls, most of whom we don't even know exist,
having never even corresponded, let alone met...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip,

Regarding the "pulling it apart and flowing-in epoxy" -- yes, that will work
with certain caveats: How clean is the material on either face which will be
epoxied together? Oil-free is good, of course, but if the two surfaces
pulled cleanly away from each other, leaving little glass on the wood or
wood on the glass, they weren't bonded strongly-enough to begin with. Trying
to rebond them with epoxy won't be very strong, and eventually that joint
will fail again. New epoxy won't form a primary bond with old polyester
resin.

If, in pulling apart, plenty of glass was left in the wood or visa-versa,
then the glue joint was as strong as it could have been. But in either case,
rebonding without mechanical fasteners will be weaker than the original
joint which failed. You might want to consider, rather than screws through
the glass into the bulkheads, using through-bolted hardwood battens at least
half an inch thick to help spread the load and reinforce that joint. If at
all possible, I would want to laminate those battens into place, making a
"wood-glass-wood-glass-wood" sandwich bolted and epoxied together.


"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
This seems to be the best thread in which to insert this...

George Huffman, of "The Dinghy Dock" newsletter, made a post in
Renegades, offering his help as soon as his own vehicular challenges
are resolved...

Hi, George, and onlookers,

It keeps getting better...

The transportation issue isn't yet resolved - but there's a distinct
possibility in the area.

I just got a mail from my surveyor, ex-QC and Service Manager for
Morgan during the entire time of building our boats.

The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the
bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.),
just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will
rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your
uncle!"

I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs,
e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity,
or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will
suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already
labor intensive project into something far more manageable.

I'm already into project management mode, but Lydia's still in full
depression, as the enormity of the elephant she has to eat is still
too close to analyze. She doesn't do patience, or methodical long-
term results. "Lord, give me patience - and I want it *right now!!!*
- funny, but unfortunately true for her generally, let alone under
these circumstances.

Yet, all this will pass, and we'll have the most amazing stories to
tell around the potlucks out in the Caribbean, or to the BoyScouts we
might do charters for on their Extreme Adventure series "Sail the
Keys" once this is all settled.

Not quite Robinson Cruso, or the other which escapes me about the
swiss family, but still entertaining, if you don't have to deal with
the pain of the real possibility of losing your home and every one of
your possessions.

Yet, I'm struck by how fortunate we are in comparison, for example, of
some of the Rita/Katrina/Wilma/Ivan survivors. We're truly blessed,
including by such as you all.

Love to all of you kind souls, most of whom we don't even know exist,
having never even corresponded, let alone met...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

If it were my boat and the joint were structurally important, i'd gain
access to the loose tabbing, cut away the separated leaf of tabbing, grind
both sides of the joint and lay up new tabbng with epoxy.

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et...
Skip,

Regarding the "pulling it apart and flowing-in epoxy" -- yes, that will
work
with certain caveats: How clean is the material on either face which will
be
epoxied together? Oil-free is good, of course, but if the two surfaces
pulled cleanly away from each other, leaving little glass on the wood or
wood on the glass, they weren't bonded strongly-enough to begin with.
Trying
to rebond them with epoxy won't be very strong, and eventually that joint
will fail again. New epoxy won't form a primary bond with old polyester
resin.

If, in pulling apart, plenty of glass was left in the wood or visa-versa,
then the glue joint was as strong as it could have been. But in either
case,
rebonding without mechanical fasteners will be weaker than the original
joint which failed. You might want to consider, rather than screws
through
the glass into the bulkheads, using through-bolted hardwood battens at
least
half an inch thick to help spread the load and reinforce that joint. If at
all possible, I would want to laminate those battens into place, making a
"wood-glass-wood-glass-wood" sandwich bolted and epoxied together.


"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
This seems to be the best thread in which to insert this...

George Huffman, of "The Dinghy Dock" newsletter, made a post in
Renegades, offering his help as soon as his own vehicular challenges
are resolved...

Hi, George, and onlookers,

It keeps getting better...

The transportation issue isn't yet resolved - but there's a distinct
possibility in the area.

I just got a mail from my surveyor, ex-QC and Service Manager for
Morgan during the entire time of building our boats.

The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the
bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.),
just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will
rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your
uncle!"

I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs,
e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity,
or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will
suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already
labor intensive project into something far more manageable.

I'm already into project management mode, but Lydia's still in full
depression, as the enormity of the elephant she has to eat is still
too close to analyze. She doesn't do patience, or methodical long-
term results. "Lord, give me patience - and I want it *right now!!!*
- funny, but unfortunately true for her generally, let alone under
these circumstances.

Yet, all this will pass, and we'll have the most amazing stories to
tell around the potlucks out in the Caribbean, or to the BoyScouts we
might do charters for on their Extreme Adventure series "Sail the
Keys" once this is all settled.

Not quite Robinson Cruso, or the other which escapes me about the
swiss family, but still entertaining, if you don't have to deal with
the pain of the real possibility of losing your home and every one of
your possessions.

Yet, I'm struck by how fortunate we are in comparison, for example, of
some of the Rita/Katrina/Wilma/Ivan survivors. We're truly blessed,
including by such as you all.

Love to all of you kind souls, most of whom we don't even know exist,
having never even corresponded, let alone met...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Hi Skip:

If I were looking at my crunched boat I think I would walk away with a
pocket full of insurance money and go find a nice 28' Cascade or
something and go sailing the next day.

After the 1000s of hours invested in Pig I'd think you would be ready
for a vacation. Are you ready to spend the next 2 years in the
yard............ again? Personally as hard as you have worked on her Id think
some fun is in order.

On a slightly related topic.... I read Lydia's comment she logged the
night before the crash. I get the impression she does not like
sailing:

"...There are sailors, and then there are sailors. Some of us sail
because
we're addicted to sailing - that catagory of people usually race
sailboats.
And then there are the others, who sail to get from A to B in order
to
enjoy what's at B. That's us. You're thrilled when you leave port
for your
new desination, and you're thrilled when you arrive. You endure the
in between part...." Lydia

Endure the in-between part? Isn't that called sailing?
Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hi Skip:

If I were looking at my crunched boat I think I would walk away with a
pocket full of insurance money and go find a nice 28' Cascade or
something and go sailing the next day.

After the 1000s of hours invested in Pig I'd think you would be ready
for a vacation. Are you ready to spend the next 2 years in the
yard............ again? Personally as hard as you have worked on her Id
think
some fun is in order.

On a slightly related topic.... I read Lydia's comment she logged the
night before the crash. I get the impression she does not like
sailing:

"...There are sailors, and then there are sailors. Some of us sail
because
we're addicted to sailing - that catagory of people usually race
sailboats.
And then there are the others, who sail to get from A to B in order
to
enjoy what's at B. That's us. You're thrilled when you leave port
for your
new desination, and you're thrilled when you arrive. You endure the
in between part...." Lydia

Endure the in-between part? Isn't that called sailing?
Bob


Might be more enjoyable to fly to a destination (eg. BVI) and rent a
sailboat for a couple of weeks.

In article . com,
"Skip Gundlach" wrote:

I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs,
e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity,
or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will
suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already
labor intensive project into something far more manageable.

I suspect it's like doing glue & nail in woodworking: The nails are
really there only to get a good bond; you could pull them after it's set
up. But you want a really good bond....

Agreement with KLC's assessment on the "cleanness" of the break. Rough
is better, polyester probably your best bet, fortified with something
strong that you can shoot in with, say, a caulk gun.

It does keep sounding better and better.

Just a thought that you might toss around: to get pressure on the
joints, you might intentionally put jackstands at those areas,
intentionally a bit too "tight"; the hull will probably flex outward
afterwards, pulling the bulkheads back in place.


--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Feb 13, 3:13 am, Jere Lull wrote:


Just a thought that you might toss around: to get pressure on the
joints, you might intentionally put jackstands at those areas,
intentionally a bit too "tight"; the hull will probably flex outward
afterwards, pulling the bulkheads back in place.


Excellent thought. So far what iI can see (pictures, soon, I promise!)
suggests it's already tight, as there's not a gap top/bottom of the
line where it used to be attached.

As to KLC's comment about reinforcement, if I could get to them all
the way, the discussion of shims/wedges wouldn't be necessary. And,
if I could get to them all the way, I'm enough of a belt and
suspenders man that I'd likely grind it off and put on new, building
up in exactly the same form as original (Pete provided me with the
type of cloth used). I can't see how adding wood over an existing tab,
and then going over it with FG/resin would improve matters; you're
relying on the existing part, and not connecting the new to the
bulkhead (I may not have a picture of what was intended, I realize).

Thanks for all the commentary and support, in whatever fashion. Today
it looks like we'll have a beater Suburban for use in transport and
hauling; I'll know for sure by the end of the day.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog


The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

Stamp out Sesquipedalianism
--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages:http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics)http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On 13 Feb 2007 07:24:57 -0800, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:


Excellent thought. So far what iI can see (pictures, soon, I
promise!)


Hi Skip,

You'd better hurray or we will send Geoff out to beat you to the
scoop -

-Lee

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...

As to KLC's comment about reinforcement, if I could get to them all
the way, the discussion of shims/wedges wouldn't be necessary. And,
if I could get to them all the way, I'm enough of a belt and
suspenders man that I'd likely grind it off and put on new, building
up in exactly the same form as original (Pete provided me with the
type of cloth used). I can't see how adding wood over an existing tab,
and then going over it with FG/resin would improve matters; you're
relying on the existing part, and not connecting the new to the
bulkhead (I may not have a picture of what was intended, I realize).

Thanks for all the commentary and support, in whatever fashion. Today
it looks like we'll have a beater Suburban for use in transport and
hauling; I'll know for sure by the end of the day.

L8R

Skip

Skip,

My outline may have left out steps that I have clearly in mind, but didn't
translate into dots on the screen. The way I see it, yes -- you could grind
off all the old tabbing and install it new, but then you would have TWO
secondary/mechanical bonds, rather than the one secondary (tabbing to
bulkhead) and one primary (tabbing to hull, laid-up when the resin was still
fresh and molecularly active.

My method does rely upon glue (epoxy) between the bulkhead and old tabbing,
clamped together with the bolts and battens, all laminated together into one
thick tabbing. Unfortunately, if you don't have the access, you don't have
the access. So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough
without that access?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:00:08 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

My method does rely upon glue (epoxy) between the bulkhead and old tabbing,
clamped together with the bolts and battens

In addition to using epoxy resin (instead of polyester), I recommend
thickening the resin with chopped glass fibers to improve its
strength.

This is a difficult repair without having full access on at least one
side of the bulkhead.