On 11 Feb 2007 09:59:25 -0800, "Bob" wrote:

But NEVER avoid the reason how they got there.
Some reader hear might LEARN somthing!

The lessons are there for all to see.

No need to belabor the obvious.

Bob wrote:
I say we need more cornflake ****ers, parade rainers, and you just
aint a team player types in our life.

Bob,
Constructive criticism can be given in a positive manner. In the Pig's
case, mistakes were certainly made and Skip has been the first one to
admit that. In fact, he has bent over backwards to analyze everything
that happened while it is still fresh in his mind and share his
conclusions with us. He has been frank and open with the events that
led up to the grounding and the mistakes he sees that were made.

I've never been in a boat in that part of the world, so I refrain from
forming any opinions based on the local conditions, but I have done a
fair amount of double handed cruising (17,000+ miles in the last 2
years). From my perspective, the primary problem that led up to the
grounding was that Lydia was not yet a full partner in the team when it
came to running the boat. Specifically in her understanding of
navigating with the chart plotter. Skip, himself admits this.

...since she'd not been monitoring it,
and making range adjustments to look ahead and also in detail at where we
were headed by zooming in along the intended route - she really couldn't
comprehend...

A major contributing factor seems to be a reluctance to get out of the
cockpit and reef the main. With more on-the-water experience, I suspect
it would have been reefed much earlier, thus allowing them to stay on a
more optimal course. By letting the boat stand more upright, it would
also have reduced the fatigue factor among the crew of the Pig.

I think that what this incident points up most of all is the need for
both members of a double handed crew to be comfortable performing all
tasks: navigating, reefing, trimming the sails, anchoring, avoiding
traffic, etc.. Further, they should be comfortable performing the
various evolutions on the boat in all conditions. The difficulty is in
acquiring these abilities without actually getting out there and doing it.

In retrospect, perhaps it would have been wise to take a few more baby
steps with the boat once it was finally ready (day sails, some easy
coastal cruising, etc.) before taking off on a multi-day leg in
challenging waters so early in the adventure.

We've all made mistakes and most of us have been lucky and gotten away
with them without major consequences. Skip and Lydia were not so
fortunate and their lessons came at a very expensive cost. I'm just
thankful no one was hurt.

- Dan

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:13:21 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

Their plan was good

On that point I disagree but will not discuss here.

On Feb 11, 1:12 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:13:21 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

Their plan was good.

On that point I disagree but will not discuss here.


Hello Wayne:

I second your comment. And hope others will look closely to what
preceeded their departure.
Bob

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:59:25 -0800, Bob graced the ethernet with:

yadda, yadda, yadda

snip

psst Bob...switch to decaf, and take some time to look up the 'tact' in
the dictionary. Skip and Lydia drove their boat onto the rocks, not you
and the olecapt. The last thing they need right now is a couple of
armchair admirals telling them about their competence.
Grow a brain.

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:13:21 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

Their plan was good

On that point I disagree but will not discuss here.

Their original plan was to do daylight-only, pulling in at night for
that stretch. That's pretty conservative and I think appropriate.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Olecapt" wrote in
:

Hmm silence. Is it the "we are not going to offer an opinion
because Skip and Lydia will see it?" Or is the subject simply too
painful to raise. That is how we avoid a lot of the truths in blue
water sailing.


As I was talking to Skip on Skype, I told him we don't take Lionheart
offshore to do anything serious without 6 sailors aboard, 2 per watch
section, 3 watch sections so you can get some REST under any conditions.
Most everyone out there trying to get away from humanity is sailing with
way too few actual sailors, not professionals but able hands strong
enough to haul in a fouled main tearing up in the wind at 2AM.

It's none of my business how others sail, but as we're talking about it,
I think an able man sailing with a wife who couldn't bring the boat
around and save his life if he simply fell overboard is really too
dangerous for all. Even if she doesn't get him back aboard, able or even
alive, what is she to do, stand and scream? She MUST be properly trained
and be able to handle the boat in fair, not just wonderful,
conditions....especially alone offshore.

You all know what I'm talking about.....It's not about Skip and Lydia.
How many of you have told your best sailing friends, "John, I don't think
you and Julie should go offshore by yourselves like you do."......do you?

Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

Inexperience can be remedied. On our first cruises, I also had to
rely a lot on Bob even though I had taken some sailing lessons.



You are right...inexperience can be remedied. But, alas, ABILITY cannot.
A 40' cruising sailboat is a handful for a 250 pound, able male. I'm
sure glad I sail on one with roller furling main and mizzen. Sailing the
Endeavour in bad conditions where you had to take the main down and lash
it to the rolling, rocking boom was a handful for 2 big people, not one.
Lazy jacks are really nice until there's a gale. The finest thing about
Lionheart's roller furling mast is its GEARBOX. I can furl the main,
alone, hanging on for dear life strapped to the base of the mast cranking
in a sail at full load. Coming into the wind, possibly rolling over
because that's not necessarily coming into the wave train, isn't
necessary at all. Roller furling mains make sail handling for less
experienced hands just so simple. It's not necessary for them to figure
out which line reefs which section and how to set it under pressure.
Just roll the damned thing into the mast until what's left outside
relieves the pressure trying to rip it off the boat and that, although
not really "nautical" to brag about at the yacht club bar, way good
enough in 40 knots of wind and 12' seas. Try it sometime...even you
diehard traditionalists.

For a 120 pound female teacher who has had all the sailing classes in the
best schools in the nation....a 40' cruising sailboat in a gale is a
recipe for disaster. She's just not big enough, weighs enough and is
strong enough to do it. It's not politically correct, it's truth. Even
standing at the wheel, to say nothing of going forward to do anything
about reefing the main and furling the ripping jib, she won't be strong
enough for long. I'm 255 and moved pianos for a living for many years.
I'm not "physically fit", but I'm strong. Lifting an end to a 900 pound
piano became easy. I cannot haul the wheel back and forth fighting to
hold any kind of course with the swells against the rudder for hours and
hours to keep the boat off those reefs. My strong arms get so sore and
my back in so much pain, I'm sure glad there are 5 other big souls to
relieve me. What about the "cruising couple"? The man is totally
exhausted. His arms have given out. The 120 pound teacher must now
stand at the helm, hauling the wheel back and forth in a losing battle
with the rudder and course. She has no more relief aboard. She's
DOOMED! Face it...it's true!

But, every one of you know who the "dock hermits" are who go off way out
there for adventure, him and her, in their fancy sailing clothes and
bushy beards trying to look like sailors of 1852. They'd rather die
first than take some really strong 20-somethings with them who know how
to sail, for hours and hours if necessary....

The boat manufacturers are also to blame. We've no place to SLEEP those
boys on a 35' Endeavour, except on the cabin deck or that little cubby
hole of a quarterberth. Berths are ugly, especially berths that are
USEFUL rolling 35 degrees over so you don't get thrown out. That won't
do.....

Good enough? Amazing how many survive out of just luck.

Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!

"Bob" wrote in news:1171228147.825891.228200
@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

My prayer for S&L and others is to
take a long hard look at the events that preceed their departure and
know that more of the same will only bring more of the same.
Bob


My analysis long before the event was that they HAD to be in the Bahamas
on a certain day to meet the kids. They "HAD to get there". I think
that is patently wrong on any sailboat that has less than a 1000 HP
engine.

No sailboat can be forced to "get there" on a certain day...sometimes
even a certain week! It's just not going to happen....safely. There's
way too many SUV drivers who are used to making Miami in 7.5 hours behind
that helm. We get there when we get there....and not a minute before we
get there. If we don't get there on schedule, we screwed up not because
we did it wrong....but because there was a schedule in the first place.

We left on schedule, no matter whether everything was running right and
everything was fixed.

We sailed on schedule, taking a chance heading into Marathon from the
wrong direction because the stupid Florida Keys are just AWFUL in a boat.

The schedule was the problem.

The solution is easy. You sail to the Bahamas, safely, no matter how
long it takes, even weeks. Isn't that great?! AFTER you've settled into
a slip or anchorage, THEN you call the kids and say, "We've arrived in
the Bahamas, safely, and will wait any length of time it takes for you to
get here and enjoy it with us!" There was no schedule to get there, no
timetable to disaster. There was no schedule for the kids to get there,
either, even though they are flying which is less of a schedule problem.

Damn everyone in a sailboat that's always in a HURRY! I sure hate to
sail with them. So doesn't my captain.... Becalmed 90 miles S of
Charleston on 80W in flat seas and NO WIND, he asked me what I thought.
"I think I'm going to get some sleep, how about you? The wind will come
up sometime this week, probably, maybe, enough to make it worth our while
to put the sails back out. I need to be home by November." (It was July
or something like that.) Isn't that why we took $400 in gourmet food
aboard and cases of beer? We weren't transporting them from Florida to
Charleston to resell..(c; "Hmm...which pate will we serve with cocktails
at happy hour this afternoon?....should we break out the sliced Salmon?"
Decisions, decisions..... "Hand me that half gallon of single malt
Scotch, will you? My glass has a leak.....God the stars are beautiful in
flat seas 90 miles out totally becalmed, laying here on the aft cabin on
my back looking straight up.....and it's SO PEACEFUL!" If it's like this
in the morning, we'll check the water in the batteries and pull that
cable for the XM antenna we forgot for the stereo.

Larry

RELAX-----WE'LL GET THERE--------------------SOME DAY!

Larry wrote:
....a 40' cruising sailboat in a gale is a
recipe for disaster. She's just not big enough, weighs enough and is
strong enough to do it.

Larry,

While I agree with your comments regarding a schedule, I'm not sure the
above is universally true. No doubt on some boats it is, but certainly
not all. Ours is a Tayana 37 with a 42' sail plan (5' bow sprit).
We've got no roller furling on either the main, jib or staysail, just
regular old hank on sails. While it's true that when it comes to some
jobs such as retensioning the main after reefing, I sure get it done a
lot faster than Kathryn (and probably a little tighter), but Kathryn is
certainly able to perform all of the sail handling tasks and does
perform them when she is on watch and I'm alseep (if I'm awake, I
usually offer to do the muscle jobs).

As to your comments on steering the boat, I've met very few cruisers who
routinely steer for hours on end in good weather, let alone when things
pick up. That's what the vane is for. Even if something were to happen
to the vane (and our wheel pilot and backup tiller pilot) and we had to
hand steer like that, if there's a lot of pressure on the helm, that's a
sure sign on our boat that we've got way too much sail up. Reduce sail,
let the boat stand upright and take the strain off everything. As far
as we are concerned, we aren't racing anybody. We are far better off
taking a bit longer to get there than to push things and break
something. Enough things break as it is. If all else fails and you've
got sea room, heave to until things settle down. If you haven't figured
out how to get your boat to heave to, then you're in too much of a hurry
(refer to your comments regarding schedules). Take the time to
experiment and figure these things out before your in a position such
that you really need it.

One of the legacies that my father left me with was the concept that
"Good Seamanship" means mostly never letting yourself get into a
situation that requires good seamanship to get safely out of it. In
other words, keep things under control at all times. Being even a
little bit out of control is a recipe for disaster. The sea holds no
animosity towards us, but it can be coldly unforgiving of any mistakes
we make.