In article ,
"Olecapt" wrote:

OK - I will go for it. This couple seems unsuited for short handed sailing.
Helping them out simply helps them to kill themselves.

Why would you do that?


Evidently, you haven't been following them for very long.

As I see it, an understandable enthusiasm dulled their normal
cautiousness, compounded by the *many* dock mates wanting to say
farewell and the flurry of activity attending finally getting away
after so many years' hard work that we've been following, sometimes in
excruciating detail. They have many friends here.

I know they know the first rule of cruising: never sail to a "date", I
called them on it before they left the dock, but I can certainly
sympathize with a "just this one time".

Had they been in a similar situation after a week's settling in and
getting the watch schedules set, I'm sure they would have handled it
better.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Olecapt" wrote:

OK - I will go for it. This couple seems unsuited for short handed
sailing.
Helping them out simply helps them to kill themselves.

Why would you do that?


Evidently, you haven't been following them for very long.

As I see it, an understandable enthusiasm dulled their normal
cautiousness, compounded by the *many* dock mates wanting to say
farewell and the flurry of activity attending finally getting away
after so many years' hard work that we've been following, sometimes in
excruciating detail. They have many friends here.

I know they know the first rule of cruising: never sail to a "date", I
called them on it before they left the dock, but I can certainly
sympathize with a "just this one time".

Had they been in a similar situation after a week's settling in and
getting the watch schedules set, I'm sure they would have handled it
better.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

You are all making excuses. If these folk are your friends I would think
counsel that they not go off shore without at least a third capable member
on board would be in order.

Skip regardless of his skills or abilities ended up with a lady made ditzy
by seasickness on the helm in dangerous conditions in dangerous waters.
How much more can one screw up?

From long experience one has to be very careful with those who have a sea
sickness proclivity. They can get totally out of it particularly if they
dehydrate.

Sure it was the start of the voyage. That is one of the standard times when
things go wrong.

And no I have never run into anything hard on a bad weather night on the
deep blue. If I ever do I think that will be it.

Sure I can get demasted. Or charged by a whale I suppose. Those however
are problems that were inflected on me. Completely different from those I
inflect on myself.

I would very strongly suggest this couple is unsuited for double handling
anything more than day runs. Other than that they should have a good third
crew.

..

"Olecapt" wrote in message
...

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Olecapt" wrote:

OK - I will go for it. This couple seems unsuited for short handed
sailing.
Helping them out simply helps them to kill themselves.

Why would you do that?


Evidently, you haven't been following them for very long.

As I see it, an understandable enthusiasm dulled their normal
cautiousness, compounded by the *many* dock mates wanting to say
farewell and the flurry of activity attending finally getting away
after so many years' hard work that we've been following, sometimes in
excruciating detail. They have many friends here.

I know they know the first rule of cruising: never sail to a "date", I
called them on it before they left the dock, but I can certainly
sympathize with a "just this one time".

Had they been in a similar situation after a week's settling in and
getting the watch schedules set, I'm sure they would have handled it
better.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

You are all making excuses. If these folk are your friends I would think
counsel that they not go off shore without at least a third capable member
on board would be in order.

Skip regardless of his skills or abilities ended up with a lady made ditzy
by seasickness on the helm in dangerous conditions in dangerous waters.
How much more can one screw up?

From long experience one has to be very careful with those who have a sea
sickness proclivity. They can get totally out of it particularly if they
dehydrate.

Sure it was the start of the voyage. That is one of the standard times
when things go wrong.

And no I have never run into anything hard on a bad weather night on the
deep blue. If I ever do I think that will be it.

Sure I can get demasted. Or charged by a whale I suppose. Those however
are problems that were inflected on me. Completely different from those I
inflect on myself.

I would very strongly suggest this couple is unsuited for double handling
anything more than day runs. Other than that they should have a good
third crew.

Hmm silence. Is it the "we are not going to offer an opinion because Skip
and Lydia will see it?" Or is the subject simply too painful to raise.
That is how we avoid a lot of the truths in blue water sailing.

Hmm silence. Is it the "we are not going to offer an opinion because Skip
and Lydia will see it?" Or is the subject simply too painful to raise.

Maybe just too obvious. The mans boat was on the reef. What can you
say??

That is how we avoid a lot of the truths in blue water sailing.- Hide quoted text -

Id say truth at times is very painful:
Kennedy.... Bay of Pigs............. origin of the term "Group Think"
Bush.........Iraq....... stay the course.

And many wont speak up for a varity of reasons. And those who do are
punnished with frowns for not being a team player or raining on
somebodies parade.

I was 17 years old when i saw my first crusing boat sanded in on a
beach. It think it was 1969 or so. Same story thats been repeated
countless times on every sho Couple in their early 60s retire
early, sell everything to spend a their life in blissful cruising.
Never sailed much, physical conditioning??? Sailing is HARD work. In
my case they left southern CA late in October and headed north. Got
tossed around about Cape Blanco, Or. Got seasick-bounced and bruised
no longer able to sail the boat and ended up on the beach at Waldport,
OR. It happens way too often.

Bob

"Bob" wrote:


Hmm silence. Is it the "we are not going to offer an opinion because Skip
and Lydia will see it?" Or is the subject simply too painful to raise.

Maybe just too obvious. The mans boat was on the reef. What can you
say??

Having read Skip's assessment of the situation, I'd say a lot of the
problem was the newness of the cruising experience, the inadequacy of
the weather reports, and, yes, the inexperience of Lydia.
Inexperience can be remedied. On our first cruises, I also had to
rely a lot on Bob even though I had taken some sailing lessons.

The part of Skip's story where he went forward to reef was similar to
something that happened to us, except that we didn't have jack lines,
and Bob had to do it twice (during the day, but we were not setting
off on a big cruise, we were just going down around the peninsula on a
day trip). I knew that if he fell overboard I would not be able to
retrieve him. Our experience was in April in the Chesapeake so cold
water would also have been a problem. Bob was very careful, and
obviously did NOT go overboard, and installed jacklines the very next
thing. (In our defense I have to say that he did have a harness, and
we had practiced retrieving each other from the water)

We've also been in a bad storm (right after Bob's heart attack) where
he didn't listen to the weather report and I let him persuade me to
leave. I was worried about his getting rest then too, as once out
there we had nowhere to go except to keep on going as we were doing.

But by that time (we'd been cruising for 2 years and we had been
married for 43 years), I was in charge of the route planning so we
both knew where we were (we could both read the charts and the radar),
and I let him stay at the wheel all night. After we made port the
next day I insisted that he take a nap and I made him go to bed early
the next night (which he didn't want to do).

Rosalie B. wrote in
:

Inexperience can be remedied. On our first cruises, I also had to
rely a lot on Bob even though I had taken some sailing lessons.



You are right...inexperience can be remedied. But, alas, ABILITY cannot.
A 40' cruising sailboat is a handful for a 250 pound, able male. I'm
sure glad I sail on one with roller furling main and mizzen. Sailing the
Endeavour in bad conditions where you had to take the main down and lash
it to the rolling, rocking boom was a handful for 2 big people, not one.
Lazy jacks are really nice until there's a gale. The finest thing about
Lionheart's roller furling mast is its GEARBOX. I can furl the main,
alone, hanging on for dear life strapped to the base of the mast cranking
in a sail at full load. Coming into the wind, possibly rolling over
because that's not necessarily coming into the wave train, isn't
necessary at all. Roller furling mains make sail handling for less
experienced hands just so simple. It's not necessary for them to figure
out which line reefs which section and how to set it under pressure.
Just roll the damned thing into the mast until what's left outside
relieves the pressure trying to rip it off the boat and that, although
not really "nautical" to brag about at the yacht club bar, way good
enough in 40 knots of wind and 12' seas. Try it sometime...even you
diehard traditionalists.

For a 120 pound female teacher who has had all the sailing classes in the
best schools in the nation....a 40' cruising sailboat in a gale is a
recipe for disaster. She's just not big enough, weighs enough and is
strong enough to do it. It's not politically correct, it's truth. Even
standing at the wheel, to say nothing of going forward to do anything
about reefing the main and furling the ripping jib, she won't be strong
enough for long. I'm 255 and moved pianos for a living for many years.
I'm not "physically fit", but I'm strong. Lifting an end to a 900 pound
piano became easy. I cannot haul the wheel back and forth fighting to
hold any kind of course with the swells against the rudder for hours and
hours to keep the boat off those reefs. My strong arms get so sore and
my back in so much pain, I'm sure glad there are 5 other big souls to
relieve me. What about the "cruising couple"? The man is totally
exhausted. His arms have given out. The 120 pound teacher must now
stand at the helm, hauling the wheel back and forth in a losing battle
with the rudder and course. She has no more relief aboard. She's
DOOMED! Face it...it's true!

But, every one of you know who the "dock hermits" are who go off way out
there for adventure, him and her, in their fancy sailing clothes and
bushy beards trying to look like sailors of 1852. They'd rather die
first than take some really strong 20-somethings with them who know how
to sail, for hours and hours if necessary....

The boat manufacturers are also to blame. We've no place to SLEEP those
boys on a 35' Endeavour, except on the cabin deck or that little cubby
hole of a quarterberth. Berths are ugly, especially berths that are
USEFUL rolling 35 degrees over so you don't get thrown out. That won't
do.....

Good enough? Amazing how many survive out of just luck.

Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!

Larry wrote:
....a 40' cruising sailboat in a gale is a
recipe for disaster. She's just not big enough, weighs enough and is
strong enough to do it.

Larry,

While I agree with your comments regarding a schedule, I'm not sure the
above is universally true. No doubt on some boats it is, but certainly
not all. Ours is a Tayana 37 with a 42' sail plan (5' bow sprit).
We've got no roller furling on either the main, jib or staysail, just
regular old hank on sails. While it's true that when it comes to some
jobs such as retensioning the main after reefing, I sure get it done a
lot faster than Kathryn (and probably a little tighter), but Kathryn is
certainly able to perform all of the sail handling tasks and does
perform them when she is on watch and I'm alseep (if I'm awake, I
usually offer to do the muscle jobs).

As to your comments on steering the boat, I've met very few cruisers who
routinely steer for hours on end in good weather, let alone when things
pick up. That's what the vane is for. Even if something were to happen
to the vane (and our wheel pilot and backup tiller pilot) and we had to
hand steer like that, if there's a lot of pressure on the helm, that's a
sure sign on our boat that we've got way too much sail up. Reduce sail,
let the boat stand upright and take the strain off everything. As far
as we are concerned, we aren't racing anybody. We are far better off
taking a bit longer to get there than to push things and break
something. Enough things break as it is. If all else fails and you've
got sea room, heave to until things settle down. If you haven't figured
out how to get your boat to heave to, then you're in too much of a hurry
(refer to your comments regarding schedules). Take the time to
experiment and figure these things out before your in a position such
that you really need it.

One of the legacies that my father left me with was the concept that
"Good Seamanship" means mostly never letting yourself get into a
situation that requires good seamanship to get safely out of it. In
other words, keep things under control at all times. Being even a
little bit out of control is a recipe for disaster. The sea holds no
animosity towards us, but it can be coldly unforgiving of any mistakes
we make.

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:56:25 -0800, Olecapt wrote:

snip

I guess you feel compelled to **** in these folks' corn flakes at this
time in an effort to be helpful. Just because we can say a thing, doesn't
mean we have to.

On Feb 11, 4:08 am, "mr.b" wrote:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:56:25 -0800, Olecapt wrote:


I guess you feel compelled to **** in these folks' corn flakes at this
time in an effort to be helpful. Just because we can say a thing, doesn't
mean we have to.


Dear mr.b:

As I said a few post ago.......................

"....And many wont speak up for a variety of reasons. And those who do
are
punished with frowns for not being a team player or raining on
somebodies parade....."

Or in this case where mr.b. said, "...I guess you feel compelled to
**** in these folks' corn flakes..." See how we punish the "Devils
Advocate." Another way we keep good info/intel from seeing the light
of day is, "...If you can not say anything good. Don't say anything
at all...." Or "there is no reson to be rude." Thats real common with
women, southerners, and the people over 60 generation. These are just
a few of several examples that tell people to keep your mouth shut
even if you know some one is about to FU or just FU. Very subtle how
we punish people back into line. Or as the many Asian cultures say,
"...the nail that stands up gets hammered down...." Personally I
recruit asshole opinion regularly just so I get EVERY option/opinion/
observation possible. Assholes have soemvery good advice at times and
are more than willing to share it. My advice: seek out assholes.

Did any of Skips so called friends stop and ask, "...when was the last
time you spent 2 consecutive nights at sea in small craft warnings? If
its been more than a year, why not go 50 miles out and sit in some
rough weather just to see how everything goes...." Did anybody say
that?!?!?! Why not?!? If not, you aint no friend! People who are truly
Good Friends wont let the people who they care about go diddy bopping
down the blissful trail of destruction.

I say we need more cornflake ****ers, parade rainers, and you just
aint a team player types in our life.
Ya its a damn shame they ran their boat on reef. So give them a hug
and a helping hand. But NEVER avoid the reason how they got there.
Some reader hear might LEARN somthing!
Bob

Bob wrote:
I say we need more cornflake ****ers, parade rainers, and you just
aint a team player types in our life.

Bob,
Constructive criticism can be given in a positive manner. In the Pig's
case, mistakes were certainly made and Skip has been the first one to
admit that. In fact, he has bent over backwards to analyze everything
that happened while it is still fresh in his mind and share his
conclusions with us. He has been frank and open with the events that
led up to the grounding and the mistakes he sees that were made.

I've never been in a boat in that part of the world, so I refrain from
forming any opinions based on the local conditions, but I have done a
fair amount of double handed cruising (17,000+ miles in the last 2
years). From my perspective, the primary problem that led up to the
grounding was that Lydia was not yet a full partner in the team when it
came to running the boat. Specifically in her understanding of
navigating with the chart plotter. Skip, himself admits this.

...since she'd not been monitoring it,
and making range adjustments to look ahead and also in detail at where we
were headed by zooming in along the intended route - she really couldn't
comprehend...

A major contributing factor seems to be a reluctance to get out of the
cockpit and reef the main. With more on-the-water experience, I suspect
it would have been reefed much earlier, thus allowing them to stay on a
more optimal course. By letting the boat stand more upright, it would
also have reduced the fatigue factor among the crew of the Pig.

I think that what this incident points up most of all is the need for
both members of a double handed crew to be comfortable performing all
tasks: navigating, reefing, trimming the sails, anchoring, avoiding
traffic, etc.. Further, they should be comfortable performing the
various evolutions on the boat in all conditions. The difficulty is in
acquiring these abilities without actually getting out there and doing it.

In retrospect, perhaps it would have been wise to take a few more baby
steps with the boat once it was finally ready (day sails, some easy
coastal cruising, etc.) before taking off on a multi-day leg in
challenging waters so early in the adventure.

We've all made mistakes and most of us have been lucky and gotten away
with them without major consequences. Skip and Lydia were not so
fortunate and their lessons came at a very expensive cost. I'm just
thankful no one was hurt.

- Dan