What is this boat worth paying for???

The one I'm interested in is a Cheoy Lee Robb 35 built in 1964 Teak
over Ipol with bronze and copper fastners. The engine is an Isuzu
Pisce 3 40hp 3 cylinder (which was new in 1976 and has 910 hours). The
boat can be view at: http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/Sale/Tigre.htm

I did an inspection this weekend and found the following:

1. Plywood rot (delamination) under deck above V-berth
2. Worse plywood damage around cockpit area.
3. There are a number of steel frames near toilet that had various
degrees of rust.
4. Near the engine I found a number of what looked like cracked ribs.
There seems to have been an attempt to sister these frame but the job
does not look very good.
5. Also there is alot of rust on engine (maybe the deck over engine is
leaking).
6. A few of the thru hulls seem extensively corroded.
7. Extensive rot of hatch (but not the hatch frame) over V-berth
8. Some rot (discoloration) of teak below hatch at base of V-berth and
floor.
9. Teak deck seems to be heavily worn. A shipwright, who looked at it
the other day claims that it will cost $60K to replace the deck in
teak and $30K to replace deck in fibreglass.

However: if you look at this boat is hard not to have a very favorable
impression. Its a beautiful boat. And for the novice like myself it
seems very well maintained. Of all the wooden boats that I've looked
at in awhile, it seems to be in the best shape (maybe thats the nature
of wooden boats). Yet still, I'm looking at having to put alot of
money into her.

A little history on the boat. I believe the boat has been on the
market for almost 2 years. The original asking price was $35,000. In
June, the price was reduced to $26,000. Just this month the price has
been reduced to $22,000. The owner has left on a long cruise on his
new boat and the sale of the boat is being now handled by a broker,
although the owner can still be reached through email.

Here is a link to the photos I took:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eha...tos.yahoo.com/

and

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eha...CheoyLeeRobb35


After talking with a number of Cheoy Lee Robb 35 owners, one purchased
his boat, which he claims was in similar condition for $5K. Another,
purchased his for $16K (this boat had laid teak deck so didn't have
the plywood delamination problem). However, a surveyor that I talked
to claims the Blue Book value a 1964 Robb 35 is about $20K. For a
boat in perfect condition I hear the max one could sell it for is
$40K.


What do people at this forum think?

O'Rourke wrote:

What is this boat worth paying for???

The only sensible answer to that question is: what exactly is it worth *to you*?




The one I'm interested in is a Cheoy Lee Robb 35 built in 1964 Teak
over Ipol with bronze and copper fastners. The engine is an Isuzu
Pisce 3 40hp 3 cylinder (which was new in 1976 and has 910 hours). The
boat can be view at: http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/Sale/Tigre.htm

Personally, I wouldn't accept it as a gift, but then I have been spoiled by a long succession of boats that were lots of fun and not much
trouble.

Two points of view- one, you have given this boat a careful inspection and found much work needed. But you still obviously want it, so the
next step is to quantify everything that you want to do to it... added gear, upgrade/modernization, outright repair... cost that out, and
see what it leaves you as a range of possible purchase prices. It seems likely to me that even with free labor, the cost of your work on
this boat is going to much exceed even the most optimistic future sale value.

Two, look around the market and see what else is out there in the same price range. You can almost take your pick of wood or ferrocement
boats in this size/price range. That, plus the fact that nobody else is qeueing up to plunk down money on this boat, suggests that it is
still overpriced.





....... A shipwright, who looked at it
the other day claims that it will cost $60K to replace the deck in
teak and $30K to replace deck in fibreglass.

Which means that it will probably cost at least $5K~ 10K in materials alone (and that, using the cheap stuff) to rebuild the deck. Listen
to the man!



However: if you look at this boat is hard not to have a very favorable
impression. Its a beautiful boat.

It's pretty, but it's not on a scale with a Herreshoff or an Alden. It's a copy of a 1950s racer-cruiser yacht, built in the Far East by
cheap labor. Nice, but it's hardly an heirloom. Not trying to be mean, just giving a somewhat-informed opinion.



.... talking with a number of Cheoy Lee Robb 35 owners, one purchased
his boat, which he claims was in similar condition for $5K. Another,
purchased his for $16K (this boat had laid teak deck so didn't have
the plywood delamination problem). However, a surveyor that I talked
to claims the Blue Book value a 1964 Robb 35 is about $20K.

That's silly. There is no 'blue book value' for sailboats, especially old wooden ones. There are not enough of them sold in any given year
to form a statistical field, and the prices & condition vary so widely that an attempt to draw one would be meaningless, besides which the
field of yacht sales is not that well organized.

I would treat all info from that source with at least a slight dosage of salt.

.... For a
boat in perfect condition I hear the max one could sell it for is
$40K.

What do people at this forum think?

Well, I have a number of friends who own (and avidly race) Herreshoff S-Boats, which are true museum-piece classics. Among them, the
common saying is that the way to have an S-Boat worth $40K is to spend $60K on it. Do you want to deal yourself a hand in this game?

If you love the boat, go for it. But hammer the price down as far as you possibly can first. And acknowledge that this boat is from an era
when sailing was an expensive and work-intensive sport. Good luck!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

i think you've answered your own question ... it's worth 20k bluebook
.... and you'd have to spend 50k to get it there .... then wait 2 years
to sell it for 5 - 16k.

Subject: What should I pay for this boat?
From: (O'Rourke)

What is this boat worth paying for???


snip

Nothing. And I'm not trying to be funny.

Capt. Bill

O'Rourke wrote:

What is this boat worth paying for???

The one I'm interested in is a Cheoy Lee Robb 35 built in 1964 Teak
over Ipol with bronze and copper fastners. The engine is an Isuzu
Pisce 3 40hp 3 cylinder (which was new in 1976 and has 910 hours). The
boat can be view at: http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/Sale/Tigre.htm

I did an inspection this weekend and found the following:

snip of some very bad stuff
A little history on the boat. I believe the boat has been on the
market for almost 2 years. The original asking price was $35,000. In
June, the price was reduced to $26,000. Just this month the price has
been reduced to $22,000. The owner has left on a long cruise on his
new boat and the sale of the boat is being now handled by a broker,
although the owner can still be reached through email.


I'd run, not walk, away from this one. There are too many structural
questions that even your novice eye caught. I would bet that there are
even more substantial ones that you didn't see. Only 910 hours on a 25
year old boat is a warning sign to me. (we have 1200 hours in 10 years'
use.)

This sounds like a boat that'll be worth $15k after you've sunk $60k
into it and you still shouldn't trust the basic structure out of
protected waters.

If we haven't dissuaded you, hire a surveyor that really knows wooden
boats. Best would be one that has built them and is a naval architect.
He may not be able to dissuade you with the litany of ills HE finds, but
at least you won't be able to come back and blame us for your being too
starry-eyed to listen to reason...

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

O'Rourke wrote:
What is this boat worth paying for???

The one I'm interested in is a Cheoy Lee Robb 35 built in 1964 Teak
over Ipol with bronze and copper fastners. The engine is an Isuzu
Pisce 3 40hp 3 cylinder (which was new in 1976 and has 910 hours). The
boat can be view at: http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/Sale/Tigre.htm


A wooden boat can certainly exert a strong pull on the heart strings.
Buying one is an emotional, not rational or business type decision.

You become a caretaker of a piece of history.
However, unless you have a whole lot of available cash you need to make
disappear, be careful.

It is virtually impossible to find a fixed price quote for any
substantial renovations on a wood boat, and I would double or triple any
estimates. You really need to do the work yourself. If you can't, it
doesn't matter what you pay for the boat, it will outstrip your resources.

In 1991 I got a 30 ft Carl Alberg designed wooden sloop for free. My
wife and I put over 600 hours into it the first year, to 100% refasten
below the water line (2,400 1-1/4 x #12 silicon bronze wood screws), do
laminate scarfed in rib repairs on 12 broken ribs, and completely strip
and recoat all the decks and bright work.

You can put any labor rate you want into this and do the math.

How much, or if, you pay for it is just the start.

As has been mentioned, try and locate a competent surveyor for a wooden
boat. They sometimes act as construction managers on larger refits, so
he can give you some additional insight into repair costs.

Good luck,

Jonathan

Wood boats are beautiful. Wood boats are maintenance-heavy. If you
work with wood, you will work on this boat forever. The bad news is
that it will be constant, the good news is that you can do 99% of it
yourself..because to pay another to fix it will cost the earth.

The thru-hulls look dangerously shot and it's generally in poor
repair. Interior alone looks like a year of weekends to bring it to
snuff...if you know what you're doing. Does it even float? Be aware
that the seams are opened and it will immediately sink unless pumped
out massively...until the caulking swells after 24-48 hours.

Wood boats "work" and are rarely dry because of this. Teak is
expensive.

Personally, I wouldn't give you $5,000 for it, but that's because I've
seen guys working year round on the very few wood boats left in our
club and seen how most of 'em don't, in fact, go sailing. The
exception is a guy who spent two seasons restoring an R-boat (think
eight meter 1920's racer) and who is able to design and install his
own custom fibreglass components, cockpit, floors, decking, etc. It's
a beautiful boat....but you have to REALLY love sand, sand, caulk,
caulk, paint, paint, scrape, scrape.

Your call, but I bet the owner would practically give it away at this
point.

R.


On 7 Oct 2003 11:18:32 -0700, (O'Rourke)
wrote:

What is this boat worth paying for???

The one I'm interested in is a Cheoy Lee Robb 35 built in 1964 Teak
over Ipol with bronze and copper fastners. The engine is an Isuzu
Pisce 3 40hp 3 cylinder (which was new in 1976 and has 910 hours). The
boat can be view at: http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/Sale/Tigre.htm

I did an inspection this weekend and found the following:

1. Plywood rot (delamination) under deck above V-berth
2. Worse plywood damage around cockpit area.
3. There are a number of steel frames near toilet that had various
degrees of rust.
4. Near the engine I found a number of what looked like cracked ribs.
There seems to have been an attempt to sister these frame but the job
does not look very good.
5. Also there is alot of rust on engine (maybe the deck over engine is
leaking).
6. A few of the thru hulls seem extensively corroded.
7. Extensive rot of hatch (but not the hatch frame) over V-berth
8. Some rot (discoloration) of teak below hatch at base of V-berth and
floor.
9. Teak deck seems to be heavily worn. A shipwright, who looked at it
the other day claims that it will cost $60K to replace the deck in
teak and $30K to replace deck in fibreglass.

However: if you look at this boat is hard not to have a very favorable
impression. Its a beautiful boat. And for the novice like myself it
seems very well maintained. Of all the wooden boats that I've looked
at in awhile, it seems to be in the best shape (maybe thats the nature
of wooden boats). Yet still, I'm looking at having to put alot of
money into her.

A little history on the boat. I believe the boat has been on the
market for almost 2 years. The original asking price was $35,000. In
June, the price was reduced to $26,000. Just this month the price has
been reduced to $22,000. The owner has left on a long cruise on his
new boat and the sale of the boat is being now handled by a broker,
although the owner can still be reached through email.

Here is a link to the photos I took:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eha...tos.yahoo.com/

and

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eha...CheoyLeeRobb35


After talking with a number of Cheoy Lee Robb 35 owners, one purchased
his boat, which he claims was in similar condition for $5K. Another,
purchased his for $16K (this boat had laid teak deck so didn't have
the plywood delamination problem). However, a surveyor that I talked
to claims the Blue Book value a 1964 Robb 35 is about $20K. For a
boat in perfect condition I hear the max one could sell it for is
$40K.


What do people at this forum think?

to claims the Blue Book value a 1964 Robb 35 is about $20K. For a
boat in perfect condition I hear the max one could sell it for is
$40K.


What do people at this forum think?

For what you'll pay, it's best to walk away until you can find a more sound
boat to start with. Even a boat of this type "in good condition" will require
plenty of work.
Then again these old boats are often restored at what appears to be an
irrational expence. The result are boats that are appreciated wherever they
sail. I'm glad that some odd folks pursue this seemingly insane hobby of boat
restoration.

Good luck,

Capt RB

That you denote yourself as "a novice" is probably reason to Stay Away
from such a 'project' boat.
Just ask yourself the following question: Do I want to spend LOTS of
TIME and perhaps a LOT of money in such a restoration OR do I want to
go sailing?
Without specific experience in restoration you will undoubtedly make
some very costly mistakes in the learning process.
If you want to go sailing buy yourself a good well founded old boat that
doesn't need much work, learn on that boat .... then decide if you want
a 'project' boat. Any boat will take a lot of maintenance and repair
time (or money), its usually better to maintain than repair/restore.
How much is your *time* worth?

DSK wrote:
O'Rourke wrote:


What is this boat worth paying for???


The only sensible answer to that question is: what exactly is it worth *to you*?




The one I'm interested in is a Cheoy Lee Robb 35 built in 1964 Teak
over Ipol with bronze and copper fastners. The engine is an Isuzu
Pisce 3 40hp 3 cylinder (which was new in 1976 and has 910 hours). The
boat can be view at: http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/Sale/Tigre.htm


Personally, I wouldn't accept it as a gift, but then I have been spoiled by a long succession of boats that were lots of fun and not much
trouble.

Two points of view- one, you have given this boat a careful inspection and found much work needed. But you still obviously want it, so the
next step is to quantify everything that you want to do to it... added gear, upgrade/modernization, outright repair... cost that out, and
see what it leaves you as a range of possible purchase prices. It seems likely to me that even with free labor, the cost of your work on
this boat is going to much exceed even the most optimistic future sale value.

Two, look around the market and see what else is out there in the same price range. You can almost take your pick of wood or ferrocement
boats in this size/price range. That, plus the fact that nobody else is qeueing up to plunk down money on this boat, suggests that it is
still overpriced.





....... A shipwright, who looked at it
the other day claims that it will cost $60K to replace the deck in
teak and $30K to replace deck in fibreglass.


Which means that it will probably cost at least $5K~ 10K in materials alone (and that, using the cheap stuff) to rebuild the deck. Listen
to the man!



However: if you look at this boat is hard not to have a very favorable
impression. Its a beautiful boat.


It's pretty, but it's not on a scale with a Herreshoff or an Alden. It's a copy of a 1950s racer-cruiser yacht, built in the Far East by
cheap labor. Nice, but it's hardly an heirloom. Not trying to be mean, just giving a somewhat-informed opinion.



.... talking with a number of Cheoy Lee Robb 35 owners, one purchased
his boat, which he claims was in similar condition for $5K. Another,
purchased his for $16K (this boat had laid teak deck so didn't have
the plywood delamination problem). However, a surveyor that I talked
to claims the Blue Book value a 1964 Robb 35 is about $20K.


That's silly. There is no 'blue book value' for sailboats, especially old wooden ones. There are not enough of them sold in any given year
to form a statistical field, and the prices & condition vary so widely that an attempt to draw one would be meaningless, besides which the
field of yacht sales is not that well organized.

I would treat all info from that source with at least a slight dosage of salt.


.... For a
boat in perfect condition I hear the max one could sell it for is
$40K.

What do people at this forum think?


Well, I have a number of friends who own (and avidly race) Herreshoff S-Boats, which are true museum-piece classics. Among them, the
common saying is that the way to have an S-Boat worth $40K is to spend $60K on it. Do you want to deal yourself a hand in this game?

If you love the boat, go for it. But hammer the price down as far as you possibly can first. And acknowledge that this boat is from an era
when sailing was an expensive and work-intensive sport. Good luck!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

RichH wrote:

That you denote yourself as "a novice" is probably reason to Stay Away
from such a 'project' boat.
Just ask yourself the following question: Do I want to spend LOTS of
TIME and perhaps a LOT of money in such a restoration OR do I want to
go sailing?

I liked the advice given by a former regular contributor here, Fishmeal:

"If you find yourself seriously contemplating buying an old wooden boat & restoring it, first go and get a rubber mallet like the surveyors use.
Then whack yourself over the head with it, and ask yourself 'Do I still want to buy the boat?' Repeat as necessary."

As much as I admire the boats & the people who do it, it's special kind of purgatory to own an old classic and restore and/or keep her sailing.
Been there, done that....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King