Its a 'reverse' bowline
Very weak and can 'trip'


In article , BarelyAwake
wrote:

http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg

and indeed, in dutch instructions, this form sometimes shows up

And in English instructions, too. From one Dutch knot tyer I read
that the two forms are known--in parlance but not in the literature--
as, roughly translated, Naval & Merchant Naval ("Marine"?).

e.g.: In the 19th century for the German navy the correct bowline
was tail outside, while for the german mercantile marine the
correct bowline was tail inside.

Peter, where'd you learn this? --sounds much like my source
re the Dutch, and as Dutch/German are so close, I think one
or the other has it wrong (and I just noticed one mistake re
"respectively" in my source, so ...).

in english texts it is mentioned as the wrong bowline
---
Its a 'reverse' bowline Very weak and can 'trip'

There is so much silly stuff re knots! These knots have
been tested in kernmantle ropes and found to be of equal
strength--though with each there is a range of dressing
and orientation that might affect such strength. As for
"trip"ing, if anything the common Bowline is more
vulnerable to capsizing, as the part of the knot to turn
over--i.e., the nipping loop in the standing part--will
have begun this by pulling the end in that direction
(whereas in the end-outside bowline the corresponding
part will bear load).

with the bad press that the bowline gets for loosening
when the load is removed, I wonder if I might be better
off using a buntline hitch instead.
---
FWIW, bowline failures are quite rare - while its often
discussed few people can offer a recent example

It would help the understanding were such knot failures
(and successes--"behavior", either way) presented as
behavior ***of a material so knotted***,
and NOT of a *knot* (which means a schema for making
some physical entity). In rockclimbing kernmantle nylon
ropes--which are considerably firmer/stiffer than the
yachting double-braid shown here, a bowline can loosen
readily and come untied--from jiggling, or by capsizing
upon a fall. Black Diamond Equipment's recent catalogue
featured the story of one of their employees who suffered
this fate (and is recovering). No amount of success in
using bowlines in material-X can influence how things
to in material-W.

--dl*
====

Sorry, I lost the attribution to this

FWIW, bowline failures are quite rare - while its often
discussed few people can offer a recent example


But I saw a bowline failure last weekend! My knife lanyard is tied with a
duobled figure-8 knot to the knife, and the other end is left straight.
When rigging down our ship, I tied the other end to a loop in my pocket
with a bowline. I kept the knife in my jacket pocket (folded) on my right
side, and lanyard was tied to an upper pocket on the left. When ever I
needed the knife, I could just grab the lanyard and yank it out of the
pocket. This produced a load pattern with the line slack most of the time,
with some hard pulls in between. After about two hours I suddenly realised
that the bowline had come undone. The line was regular white flag line,
double-braided, about 3mm thick.

I don't know the name of the improved bowline I used for reattaching the
lanyard, but that held for the rest of the day. (googling shows a water
bowline that looks quite much like what I did)


- Heikki

"Heikki" wrote in message
...

But I saw a bowline failure last weekend! My knife lanyard is
tied with a
duobled figure-8 knot to the knife, and the other end is left
straight.
When rigging down our ship, I tied the other end to a loop in my
pocket
with a bowline. I kept the knife in my jacket pocket (folded) on
my right
side, and lanyard was tied to an upper pocket on the left. When
ever I
needed the knife, I could just grab the lanyard and yank it out
of the
pocket. This produced a load pattern with the line slack most of
the time,
with some hard pulls in between. After about two hours I
suddenly realised
that the bowline had come undone. The line was regular white
flag line,
double-braided, about 3mm thick.

I suffered that failure regularly too, and stopped using bowlines
in light line for attaching knives/marline spikes etc, switching
instead to round turn and (3) half hitches. Critical factors were
that the flag line was very smooth - even slippery - and
relatively stiff for its diameter, so tended not to jam up.

Never had a failure in heavy line though, even when the stress
cycle was similar (on a secondary bow line made up to a quay in
surging conditions).

Which all goes to confirm the importance of a particular type of
line and stress cycle when assessing which knot to use. There is
no 'universal' knot.
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
Compares the cruise areas of Europe