I work in biologically controlled water system. Peggy sells toilets.

Typical atmospheric air will contain 30,000 particles per sq. ft. with a
small percentage of Stochybotris Autra and various Aspergillis spores.
These are removed by filtration. There is NO place on earth where these
spores are not present. Most folks are tolerant of these species, some
are extremely reactive - hence cumulative dosage can be fatal for some.
Play the odds and risk the 'trots' or worse - your choice.
An independent 'collection' tank, then filtration into a (sanitized)
storage tank is the prime recommendation.

One must remember that until the western world corrected and
biologically controlled its water systems and methods .... the leading
cause of death and illness ...and probably the reason for low
life-expectancy was waterborne diseases before that change. The reason
for the low life expectancy in the 'third world' is STILL uncontrolled
water systems/sources. Simply draining rainwater into your boat's tank
is risky and quite archaic in light of modern practices .... and can be
quite dangerous. Even the 'ancients' who filled cisterns from rain
run-off used sand bed filters to purify and create a barrier from
biologically aggressive species while having absolutely NO idea about
such microorganisms. How soon we forget!


Peggy's 'bleach treatment' is a one-size-fits-all case and doesnt apply
to most stagnant (boat) water situations; plus, free chlorine in potable
water is a small risk carcinogen - take your choice.

Peggy's 'bleach treatment' is a one-size-fits-all case and doesnt apply
to most stagnant (boat) water situations;

Why do you say that?

Mike

RichH wrote:

I work in biologically controlled water system. Peggy sells toilets.

Typical atmospheric air will contain 30,000 particles per sq. ft. with a
small percentage of Stochybotris Autra and various Aspergillis spores.
These are removed by filtration. There is NO place on earth where these
spores are not present. Most folks are tolerant of these species, some
are extremely reactive - hence cumulative dosage can be fatal for some.
Play the odds and risk the 'trots' or worse - your choice.
An independent 'collection' tank, then filtration into a (sanitized)
storage tank is the prime recommendation.


What would you recommend? I assume a pre filter and then a fine filter.
In your earlier post you gave the figures as "2-3 micrometers
absalute".When I see filters in our local hardware store they say what
they will do,i.e, protect from cysts, but not the actual size. Are
filter elements standard sizes?
Tony

What would you recommend? I assume a pre filter and then a fine filter.
In your earlier post you gave the figures as "2-3 micrometers
absalute".When I see filters in our local hardware store they say what
they will do,i.e, protect from cysts, but not the actual size. Are
filter elements standard sizes?
Tony


The hardware store filters are not accurate in their retention size. In
fact what they represent is "nominal" rating, which in filter-speak
jargon can mean anything from 50% to approx. 98% removal efficiency (by
weight) at the 'rated' retention size. The rating can be ANYTHING the
manufacurer wants it to be! .... and doesnt (usually) mean that such and
such 'micron rated' filter will retain all such and such particles!!!!
Hardware store type filters are not meant to be used as a 'single pass
filter'; but, are meant to be used wherin the fluid is re-circulated
several times throgh the filter to attain an 'approximation' of the
rating - such as in a (recirculation) swimming pool filtration set.

With cysts, etc. the (very loose) NSF regulations require approx. 98%
removal (by weight) at 1,0 micrometers per single pass of the fluid.
Without an accompanying validation statement on the filter package I'd
be quite dubious of its *true* retention rating ... yes, they will
remove cycts, but probably not to the level required by the NSF regs.
Sadly, most of the 'hardware store' types of filters are rated in the
same manner that manufacturers promote snake-oil. You usually get what
you pay for... a hardware store filter typically in the $2-$6 range, the
same (but precise and compliant) filter from a technical manufacturer
will be in the range of $15-25.

Forgive my snippage;

Tony wrote (snip)
What would you recommend?

RichH wrote (snip)

Hardware store type filters are not meant to be used as a 'single pass
filter'; but, are meant to be used wherin the fluid is re-circulated
several times

in a recent diesel polishing type thread it was suggested to use a
larger micron rated element and to recirculate as much as possible:
not really that much difference between setting up a diesel polishing
system and setting up a water polishing system, 12v water pump and
"standard?" filter housing (find a variety of off the shelf filter
elements at most any hardware store)
already in place on my boat so it would seem all that would be needed
for me to create water recirculation is a TEE with a couple onn/off
valves to divert water back to tank.


You usually get what
you pay for... a hardware store filter typically in the $2-$6 range, the
same (but precise and compliant) filter from a technical manufacturer
will be in the range of $15-25.

? get inexpensive ( cheap !) filters and change often --thats been
my strategy thus far ( string wound filters ), waters OK; but the
waters only passed through filter once on way to faucet..
probably wouldn't cost much ($10-$20 ??) to divert back to tank.....

how important is activated charcoal (AC) in a filter if main tank is
filled from municiple water supply : does AC (or other _______ (?)/
finer micron ratings) rank higher in importance when improvising water
supply ?

My Irwin 37cc is the perfect boat for catching rain off the deck, the
previous owner bought but never installed the valves, figuring the
water we catch on deck will not be of the quality delivered from our
municiple supply and when cruising captured rain will be our greatest
supplement; aside from treating tank/captured water with bleach; if I
added a circulation path to the water system what guidelines would you
suggest in filter selection?

Another angle on this water purification issue: Chlorine doesn't
necessarily kill all the bad things you want it to kill, notably giardia
cysts. I've researched the topic a bit and found that iodine is a better
solution to treat water with, This is the "Portable Aqua" method used by
campers but is way to expensive to use for a whole tank full of water
that we pump out of Lake Superior when we don't get it from the tap.

We bought a jar of crystal resublimed iodine (my 100 gram bottle will
likely last me my lifetime) and pour a tablespoon or so (quantity
doesn't matter) into a 24 ounce glass jar. The jar is then filled with
water, shaken up a bit and allowed to sit for an hour. This saturates
the jar of water with iodine.

We then add one ounce of this solution to every gallon we have in our
tank. This ratio supposedly will kill the bad things if it is allowed to
work for a couple hours and if the tank temp gets up to 70, which mine
does because the tank is right next to the motor. If we take the tank
down part way before adding more water, we add only an ounce for each
gallon we put back in so the concentration stays the same.

Some people can taste the iodine at this concentration, but most cannot,
especially if you don't tell them. I RECOMMEND THAT YOU TELL THEM!!!
Some people are very allergic to iodine. Also the iodine crystals are
deadly poison and the saturated water solution isn't going to be
anything you want to mistake for scotch, either. Keep them out of the
reach of others, and label appropriately. (POISON!!!! seems to be
effective). I also filter the water.

If you are using colder water and/or want to have the water ready for
consumption quicker, you need to use a more concentrated solution. You
also may want to check out this ratio for yourself, because I am not a
chemist, pharmacist, medical doctor or anyone else you could trust (or
sue, for that matter) for my expertise in this field.

For What It's Worth,
Capt. Jeff

Sounds interesting. I was hoping someone would mention the virtues of
silver too. This seems to have marked bacteriocidal properties.
But apart from placing some silver strip in a (plastic) water line,
nothing in the way of finely divided or large surface area silver
comes to mind.

Brian whatcott Altus OK

On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:36:03 -0500, Messing In Boats
wrote:

Another angle on this water purification issue: Chlorine doesn't
necessarily kill all the bad things you want it to kill, notably giardia
cysts. I've researched the topic a bit and found that iodine is a better
solution to treat water with, This is the "Portable Aqua" method used by
campers but is way to expensive to use for a whole tank full of water
that we pump out of Lake Superior when we don't get it from the tap.

We bought a jar of crystal resublimed iodine (my 100 gram bottle will
likely last me my lifetime) and pour a tablespoon or so (quantity
doesn't matter) into a 24 ounce glass jar. The jar is then filled with
water, shaken up a bit and allowed to sit for an hour. This saturates
the jar of water with iodine.

We then add one ounce of this solution to every gallon we have in our
tank. This ratio supposedly will kill the bad things if it is allowed to
work for a couple hours and if the tank temp gets up to 70, which mine
does because the tank is right next to the motor. If we take the tank
down part way before adding more water, we add only an ounce for each
gallon we put back in so the concentration stays the same.

Some people can taste the iodine at this concentration, but most cannot,
especially if you don't tell them. I RECOMMEND THAT YOU TELL THEM!!!
Some people are very allergic to iodine. Also the iodine crystals are
deadly poison and the saturated water solution isn't going to be
anything you want to mistake for scotch, either. Keep them out of the
reach of others, and label appropriately. (POISON!!!! seems to be
effective). I also filter the water.

If you are using colder water and/or want to have the water ready for
consumption quicker, you need to use a more concentrated solution. You
also may want to check out this ratio for yourself, because I am not a
chemist, pharmacist, medical doctor or anyone else you could trust (or
sue, for that matter) for my expertise in this field.

For What It's Worth,
Capt. Jeff

Jeff,

If you're going to go this route, I'd strongly suggest you that
you add a point of use (for drinking / cooking) carbon filter to
remove the majority of the iodine. While *no* iodine in the diet
is real bad, long term ingestion of higher levels appears to be
linked with risk of thyroid cancer (it accumulates in the thyroid).

Also, since the solubility of idodine changes dramatically with
temperature, the concentration of your (and other folks) 'stock
solution' will vary considerably. You can purchase test strips
that are selective for Iodine, and I'd suggest that it would be a
good idea to use them as a means to gauge your final
concentration. About 0.5 - 1.5 ppm should be effective if you have
sufficient contact time (several hours at least). Also, be aware
that if you're in a cold area and your tanks don't get above, say,
15°C, the biocidal effect will be considerably diminished,
increasing your risk.

Keith Hughes

Messing In Boats wrote:
Another angle on this water purification issue: Chlorine doesn't
necessarily kill all the bad things you want it to kill, notably giardia
cysts. I've researched the topic a bit and found that iodine is a better
solution to treat water with, This is the "Portable Aqua" method used by
campers but is way to expensive to use for a whole tank full of water
that we pump out of Lake Superior when we don't get it from the tap.

We bought a jar of crystal resublimed iodine (my 100 gram bottle will
likely last me my lifetime) and pour a tablespoon or so (quantity
doesn't matter) into a 24 ounce glass jar. The jar is then filled with
water, shaken up a bit and allowed to sit for an hour. This saturates
the jar of water with iodine.

We then add one ounce of this solution to every gallon we have in our
tank. This ratio supposedly will kill the bad things if it is allowed to
work for a couple hours and if the tank temp gets up to 70, which mine
does because the tank is right next to the motor. If we take the tank
down part way before adding more water, we add only an ounce for each
gallon we put back in so the concentration stays the same.

Some people can taste the iodine at this concentration, but most cannot,
especially if you don't tell them. I RECOMMEND THAT YOU TELL THEM!!!
Some people are very allergic to iodine. Also the iodine crystals are
deadly poison and the saturated water solution isn't going to be
anything you want to mistake for scotch, either. Keep them out of the
reach of others, and label appropriately. (POISON!!!! seems to be
effective). I also filter the water.

If you are using colder water and/or want to have the water ready for
consumption quicker, you need to use a more concentrated solution. You
also may want to check out this ratio for yourself, because I am not a
chemist, pharmacist, medical doctor or anyone else you could trust (or
sue, for that matter) for my expertise in this field.

For What It's Worth,
Capt. Jeff

how important is activated charcoal (AC) in a filter if main tank is
filled from municiple water supply : does AC (or other _______ (?)/
finer micron ratings) rank higher in importance when improvising water
supply ?
Activated carbon is used for decolorization, odor control, chlorine
reduction, etc. ab/adsorbtion. Its best to use such filters when
*filling* the tank but you need to have sufficient 'contact time' of the
fluid within the filter matrix so the absorbtion process can take place.
Unless the filter manufacturer specifies the flow rate, use such filters
as s-l-o-w as possible to gain maximum residence/contact time of the
fluid inside the filter. Use of a carbon packed filter as on onboard
installation is the least effective: 1. the carbon will strip (by
chemical equilibrium) most of any chlorine you add to the water as a
sanitization agent. 2. activated carbon is very good nutrient source for
bacteria and other microorganisms and will promote a large bloom of bio
growth.


My Irwin 37cc is the perfect boat for catching rain off the deck, the
previous owner bought but never installed the valves, figuring the
water we catch on deck will not be of the quality delivered from our
municiple supply and when cruising captured rain will be our greatest
supplement;
Rain water is probably better than most municipal supply (from surface
water) as the zoocysts, bacterial and viral load, heavy metals, etc. is
greatly reduced - just filter out the ambient/airborne molds/mildews and
a few airborne bacteria, airborne particulate and all should be OK. Just
remember that just about every rain drop forms on a microscopic piece of
dirt, etc.

aside from treating tank/captured water with bleach; if I
added a circulation path to the water system what guidelines would you
suggest in filter selection?
For a recirc. system that has a high flow pump, 5 to 10 micrometers
would probably be OK, then into a single pass filter of 1 micrometer
rating of at least 98-99% efficiency before charging the main storage tank.

I purchased a bottle of Micropur, made by Katadyn from a web site awhile
back. It's 1% silver (Ag+) according to the label. I haven't had a chance to
use it yet though... anyone else heard of this? A little bottle treats 2500
gallons according to the instructions... usage at .035 oz./25 gallons.

"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
...
Sounds interesting. I was hoping someone would mention the virtues of
silver too. This seems to have marked bacteriocidal properties.
But apart from placing some silver strip in a (plastic) water line,
nothing in the way of finely divided or large surface area silver
comes to mind.

Brian whatcott Altus OK

On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:36:03 -0500, Messing In Boats
wrote:

Another angle on this water purification issue: Chlorine doesn't
necessarily kill all the bad things you want it to kill, notably giardia
cysts. I've researched the topic a bit and found that iodine is a better
solution to treat water with, This is the "Portable Aqua" method used by
campers but is way to expensive to use for a whole tank full of water
that we pump out of Lake Superior when we don't get it from the tap.

We bought a jar of crystal resublimed iodine (my 100 gram bottle will
likely last me my lifetime) and pour a tablespoon or so (quantity
doesn't matter) into a 24 ounce glass jar. The jar is then filled with
water, shaken up a bit and allowed to sit for an hour. This saturates
the jar of water with iodine.

We then add one ounce of this solution to every gallon we have in our
tank. This ratio supposedly will kill the bad things if it is allowed to
work for a couple hours and if the tank temp gets up to 70, which mine
does because the tank is right next to the motor. If we take the tank
down part way before adding more water, we add only an ounce for each
gallon we put back in so the concentration stays the same.

Some people can taste the iodine at this concentration, but most cannot,
especially if you don't tell them. I RECOMMEND THAT YOU TELL THEM!!!
Some people are very allergic to iodine. Also the iodine crystals are
deadly poison and the saturated water solution isn't going to be
anything you want to mistake for scotch, either. Keep them out of the
reach of others, and label appropriately. (POISON!!!! seems to be
effective). I also filter the water.

If you are using colder water and/or want to have the water ready for
consumption quicker, you need to use a more concentrated solution. You
also may want to check out this ratio for yourself, because I am not a
chemist, pharmacist, medical doctor or anyone else you could trust (or
sue, for that matter) for my expertise in this field.

For What It's Worth,
Capt. Jeff