perhaps you needed a stiffer bungie cord?
"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:IoM%g.11278$iM2.8992@trndny08...
Tom,,

So, you have used it ... ok ok ... what and where does the jib sheet
attach to? Say we go with a starboard tack.

Wind from abeam to a beat... the sheet on the port side will be tight,
right. // the sheet on the starboard side is loose, right?

If the boat pulls into the wind { to starboard } the tiller is pulled to
port, right? So, this means that something must pull the tiller back to
starboard to keep the boat from pulling into the wind, right?

How is pressure applied to the windward side of the tiller ?? Is that
the stretch tuding that pulls it back to windward side?

I did this last summer with a bungy cord. I got her on course, attached
my cord and when the boat pulled into the wind the cord would pull a
little. Could hole a course for a few minutes, not long. But this was not
a very good set up.

If she would hold for one half an hour that would be great. Give me lots
of time to do other things.

If you could try to explain just a little better ... please?



"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
...
There's a really good book that describes how to do this. It's by John
Letcher and was published in the early 70's. Go to Barnes and Noble's
used and out of print books section (www.bn.com), search on John Letcher
as author, and see if you can find a copy.

I used that book to set up sheet to tiller steering on the 28' 3/4 keel
sloop that I owned back then, and it worked great. Wouldn't steer
straight down wind, of course, but on a beam reach to a beat it worked
just fine. Unless the boat got thrown way off course by a wave, it
steered like a champ. I'd set it up and sit back and read while it
steered the boat. I don't remember now, after all this time, how far aft
the wind could be before it stopped working, but it seems to me that the
wind could be a fair distance aft of the beam.

Best regards,
Tom Dacon

"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:J2s%g.8604$gZ2.6181@trndny07...
Found this info on the net, all about sheet to tiller self steering.
Since I have a tiller ,,

I read and re-read the web site info for the sheet to tiller set up.. I
still can't understand it. The pictures don't help and there are no
diagrams.

Figured one of you could explain better or send me to a site that shows
diagrams, and pictures that actually show the set up.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:56:07 GMT, "Chi Chi"
wrote:

perhaps you needed a stiffer bungie cord?

One of the points that Letcher makes in his book, is that bungie cord
makes a lousy spring because of its non linear stretch
characteristics. He recommends surgical tubing instead.

That made sense to me so I went out to my local drug store, endured
their 3rd degree questioning regarding purpose, and took it to the
boat.

It didn't work either.

Wayne,, work or not ,,, I still can't figure out the attachment system.

On the lee side of the boat, away from the wind, the sheet gets pulled
tight, usually wrapped around a winch and then pulled tight and cleated.

On the wind side of the boat the sheet ( I am talking jib here ) is left
loose.. until the boat is tacked and then that side gets pulled in..

Now, if the tiller is attached to an elastic line, to a cleat ... ( like my
bungy cord system ) ,, the tiller needs to be controled from pulling into
the wind.. Or, on a starboard tack ,,,, the tiller needs to be controled
from moving to the direction of port .. that way the boat doesn't turn into
the wind..

Ok ok ok ... so how does the sheet on the loose side come into play, ,,
or does it?

This is what has me confused.... only one side has a tight sheet or a sheet
under pressure. Is the pressure side controling the non pressure side?


================

Even though this might not work... I must admit some interest after my bungy
cord system.

==================

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

=========
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:56:07 GMT, "Chi Chi"
wrote:

perhaps you needed a stiffer bungie cord?

One of the points that Letcher makes in his book, is that bungie cord
makes a lousy spring because of its non linear stretch
characteristics. He recommends surgical tubing instead.

That made sense to me so I went out to my local drug store, endured
their 3rd degree questioning regarding purpose, and took it to the
boat.

It didn't work either.

In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat" writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make
that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going.

Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a
permanent system?

I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a s...t,
eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss,
............. then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for boss
to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to
helmsman,,,,,, and then .............................. ???????????????????
another hour of self steering is called for.


==============================
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat"
writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

NE Sailboat wrote:
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Slocum had no self steering. He'd balance the boat out and she'd self
steer ok once so balanced.

Beats me why you are making yourself crazy here. Many have told you that
we tried and it didn't work. Lauri did try and it worked so that means
it doesn't work for all boats and I'll tell you it won't work nearly as
well as a tiller master or vane.

How many replies saying we tried and it didn't work will it take?

In ebS%g.7278$ke4.1160@trndny02 "NE Sailboat" writes:

Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

Then you use it mainly in nice and easy conditions.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

If you reaad Joshua Slocums book about his circumnavigation he just tied
the tiller down. He said Spray would keep it's course for days.

As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make
that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going.

I believe that if you look around you will find some stores that sell
various components for shelfs and storage systems and tarpaulin
supports, that have tubes and different kind of angled and straight
joining elements, so you can build anything you want.

Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a
permanent system?

There are some laws in physics about the energy, there are systems that
use the power created by the wane to steer the boat, but the wane is
then a small sail. Look more carefully to the system Sir Francis
Chichester used on his journeys.

I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a s...t,
eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss,
............ then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for boss
to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to
helmsman,,,,,, and then .............................. ???????????????????
another hour of self steering is called for.

It is hard to make any realistic proposals without knowing more about
your boat. On the wind it should be easy just by using a shockcord or a
piece of rope, on a reach or a run it is more complicated. The
electronic tiller pilots are just done for this purpose and even the
small ones will do on nice conditions and then they do not draw too much
energy to ruin your batteries.

- Lauri Tarkkonen



==============================
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat"
writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:12:10 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Their routes were carefully chosen to be dead down wind or nearly so.
You can do that if you are going around the world, much harder
Portland, ME to Portsmouth, NH.

They would typically use a double head sail rig: Two jibs wung-out on
opposite sides, each with its own pole. The jib sheet on each side
would be led aft to a turning block, and then tied to the tiller. As
the boat would begin to head up too much in one direction or the
other, jib sheet tension would increase on one side and decrease on
the other, thus pulling the tiller in the correct direction to head
down wind again.


Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

Yes. They could go downwind for days and weeks at a time with little
or no adjustment.

In article ebS%g.7278$ke4.1160@trndny02, says...
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system. Not
for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along the
coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

The Spray had several advantages that you might lack when it comes
to setting up the boat to self-steer:

1. A full keel to make the boat more stable in holding a course.
2. A yawl rig.

The yawl (or a ketch) rig makes it easier to balance the sails for
limited self steering.

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

I was able to keep my Islander 24 (full keel sloop) on course for
15 to 20 minutes in light seas and moderate winds by doing the
following:

1. Trim the sails for a moderate amount of weather helm
2. Attach a bungee cord from the tiller to the weather
cockpit coaming.
3 run the main sheet through a block on the leeward cockpit
coaming and to a jam cleat on the tiller. (4-part tackle
on the mainsheet)
3. Adjust tension on the bungee cord until it pulled hard
enough to overcome the weather helm and mainsheet pull.

If the boat fell off to leeward, the extra strain on the
mainsheet overcame the bungee and pulled the tiller to leeward.

If the boat pointed too high, reduced tension on the main
sheet allowed the bungee to pull the helm to weather.

This system worked only over a narrow range of courses and
wind speeds. I could go below for a few minutes if the
wind was somewhere between 30 degrees off the bow to
about 20 degrees aft of the beam. With some watching
and tweaking, it could get me time to eat lunch and
read a guide book or charts for a while.

I would never trust it with the wind further aft for fear
of an unintentional jibe.

I did try one of the simply plywood vanes with lines to
the tiller for a while. It never worked very well except
under optimum conditions. In light winds, there
was just too little energy to pull the tiller lines.

I never did take that boat very far offshore, and traffic
in San Francisco Bay wasn't very amenable to an
untended helm in any case, so the bungee/tiller/sheet
arrangement served for head calls and snacks.

If the winds were light and aft of the beam, heaving to
was the alternative.


SNIP

Mark Borgerson

The technique that Slocum used downwind was to sheet the main out as one
normally would, but the jib, w/ a club foot I believe, was sheeted in tight.
When the main caused Spray to head up, the jib would force her head back
down. Helm was probably lashed.
I suspect that sheet to tiller requires so much trial and effort that one
turns to other means. But as in many things, if there are no other options,
one would be more determined to make the solution at hand work.

"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:ebS%g.7278$ke4.1160@trndny02...
Lauri,,, I agree and disagree ... both.

Yes, a wind vane that will work in all conditions must be of high quality,
and probably expensive..

No, a wind vane that will work ok, but not great, and won't be used in all
conditions, just something to take the edge off.

That is why I got looking at the sheet to tiller self steering system.
Not for going around the world, just a system to take the edge off along
the coast of New England.

The question in my mind is: what did the lone sailors do before the wind
vane? How did Joshua Slocum steer the Spray?

Did they tie off the helm? And if yes, how long would the boat stay on
course?

As far as the "Vane" part of the system goes, even a dope like me can make
that. It is the stainless and pendulem etc that gets the trouble going.

Couldn't a vane be set up that would work with the tiller, but not a
permanent system?

I'm looking for the one hour wind vane. One hour to go below, take a
s...t, eat, grab some charts, change the music, get a wine for the boss,
............ then back top, sit behind the helm ,,..... and wait for
boss to drink said wine,,,,, then boss will get hot and come sit next to
helmsman,,,,,, and then ..............................
??????????????????? another hour of self steering is called for.


==============================
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
...
In woR%g.4294$Wp3.2820@trndny05 "NE Sailboat"
writes:

I would love to get a wind vane system ............ but at $3,000 ???
Probably won't happen.

I wonder if there is a Poor Man's Wind Vane... a system that could use
the
apparent wind to steer and the controls would go to the tiller in the
cockpit.

The problem is that if you want a windvane that works in almost any
conditions and lasts for years and years and does not let you down when
you have gone in the cabib to make some coffee and sandwiches or to goo
to the loo, then it is not a cheap system to build.

If you think that the power generated by the wind will be the one used
to actually steer the boat, then you need some wind or your wane must be
very big. In the best windvanes the steering action is geretade by the
boats speed through the water with a servo pendulum oar and the wind is
just controlling the angle of this oar to the water.

They say, that a poor man can not afford to buy cheap,he must buy
quality.

I would not recommend anyone to depend on a cheapo windvane, this does
not mean, that one should not be avare of ways to make tackles for
temporary use, as it is possible you need it for various reasons while
underway.

- Lauri Tarkkonen