On 18 Aug 2006 09:10:24 -0700, "Akka" wrote:

Larry and all other responders,

Thanks for all the advice. We learned a lot from it.

On the R12/R134a issue: too late. We converted from R12 to R134a years
ago, and the system was working fine with R134a for a long time -- now,
no longer. When we installed the last compressor (marked clearly
'R134a' all over it) last month, we evacuated the system and put in a
new dryer, a big accumulator, and of course, gas. The compressor comes
with oil in it, as does the gas, so we didn't add any more.

We put in enough R134a to just barely fill the sight glass -- maybe
that was too much! The expansion valves are on the original factory
settings -- 2 turns closed from fully open. There are 2 low spots
below compressor level in the low-pressure copper tubing: one where the
tube runs under the floorboards from the fridge to the engine
compartment, and one at the bottom of a full loop just before the
compressor.

When we last charged the system, we had 140 psi on the high side, and
something below atmospheric pressure on the low side, when the system
was running and the plates were cold. When we closed the valve on the
high-pressure side, we got 150 psi on the high side and a full vacuum
on the low side. That was the day before the compressor blew. Now it
doesn't draw down to a vacuum (only to about atmospheric pressure) and
doesn't hold the pressure differential at all, after shutoff. So we
figure it's blown.

We didn't hear any knocking sound before the compressor blew but of
course the engine was running at the time and the engine room is
sound-insulated from the cabin. Initially, we did see a light fast
flow of freon across the bottom of the sight glass, then nothing. We
waited 5 minutes, turned off the system, hooked up the gauges, and
discovered we had no pressure -- and a blown compressor.

We don't have a high-pressure valve. We do have an electric clutch,
but in practice it never cuts out because we never run the fridge more
than about an hour at a time, to avoid freezing the lines. We also
check fairly regularly after we've recharged the system with R134a that
we're not frosting the return lines.

So right now I'm concentrating on three possibilities: (1) we may have
overcharged the system, causing fluid to be forced through the
expansion valves and back into the compressor at startup; (2) the
expansion valves might be clogged up and the compressor starved for oil
because of the lack of a return supply; or (3) the new compressor
simply blew -- we discovered that 3 of the nuts on the compressor head
weren't fully tight. But that in itself wouldn't cause the compressor
to fail, would it?

The gunk on the valve filters certainly could have come from
incompatible gasses. We used to get the unit refilled from time to
time by 'professionals' and we're pretty sure at least one of them put
in the wrong gas. That was 2 years ago, but still ...

So, what to do? Apparently, compressors can't be repaired (though it
sure looks like one could replace the head gasket), so we have to buy a
new one. When we do, we'll open up the valves and inspect them,
replace the dryer, vacuum-pump the system, then barely fill it until we
see liquid running across the bottom of the sight glass. What else?
More oil? Lighter-weight oil because of the low operating
temperatures?

You don't fill to a mark - you fill to a pressure for given
temperatures. So for me: the low side looks about 60 psi low.

But what do I know?

Only this - no pressure into the compressor
means no lube oil.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

On 18 Aug 2006 09:10:24 -0700, "Akka" wrote:

So, what to do? Apparently, compressors can't be repaired (though it
sure looks like one could replace the head gasket), so we have to buy a
new one. When we do, we'll open up the valves and inspect them,
replace the dryer, vacuum-pump the system, then barely fill it until we
see liquid running across the bottom of the sight glass. What else?
More oil? Lighter-weight oil because of the low operating
temperatures?

If you can find a good refrigeration expert in your area, I would
highly recommend that you sign him up. In the long run it will be
money well spent. There are a lot of subtle complexities to be
considered, from the size and adjustment of the expansion valve, the
amount of charge, compressor size, purging, leak detection and
protective circuitry. Without all of that working together as a
coordinated system, it will be either unreliable, inefficient or both.
I've had one system completely overhauled, and another replaced in the
last year, learning enough along the way to know it is not a job for
amateurs, even serious amateurs.

Akka wrote:
We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong.


After reading all the posts so far, I got to admit I do not think I
make enough money and lack the skill to maint a refer system.

So why do you "need" a refer system when most the worlds population
lacks such amenities?

This morning I got up had my oat meal, soy milk, and a few raisins.
Umm........ The soy milk aint milk but the light chocolate soy is
great! Shelf life is about on year. For lunch I think I'll have some
rice, fish, and some veggies. Maybe for dinner a little pasta, veggies,
olive oil, parmesan. Ummmmmm. Oh, and a nice 84 degree F beer. The hops
really stand out over 80 F! Get a good south pacific beer brewed
locally and its got to taste good at 84 degrees. Why? Uhh, who do think
is buying it? Later a snack: fruit salad, pineapple, mango, banana, and
that weird pokey thing that tastes like Juicy Fruit Gum. And speaking
of Hawaiian styled Poke. Nothing like a nice bowl of raw fish. Ummm.

Hey........ just a second! Non of that needed a refer?!?!?

So why do you need a refer? Oh I forgot. For all the visitors when tied
at the dock. I do not do much entertaining. I enjoy sailing. One of the
first things I threw overboard was that cocktail table in the cockpit.
Damn thing kept flapping around when surfing down 20' seas. Also
removed the salon table. Now that was a waste of space. But will be
able to recycle both for various boat projects.

And no I do not think cursing should be "camping in the sixteenth
century."

All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart. But if everyone did that our economy
would crash. How much of our GNP is from consumer purchasing????

Hi Bob,

From your post it seems as if you are advocating one specific standard
for all cruisers. Perhaps I'm reading in more than you intended, if so
I apologize, but it seems to me that there is no one "true" solution to
how much luxury or hardship one should endure while cruising.

Instead, I would suggest that the would be cruiser treat it as an
economics issue similar to "How much luxury can you afford while on
vacation?" To better illustrate this I'd use two extreme examples, then
work towards the middle.

If you are the Prince of Monaco, then anything short of 5 star hotel
service on a mega yacht is roughing it - but only because he can afford
it - this would mean having unlimited water, ice, fresh food,
communication, entertainment, etc.

If you are dirt poor, than anything that requires power (all of the
above) are beyond one's means and would be sacrificed in order to allow
for the basic costs of cruising. There are many famous boaters who've
written books about sailing with only limited water on a small boat
without a motor or VHS. Joshua Slocum sailed around the world this way,
but I doubt most others would have enjoyed the trip.

In them middle are the rest of us. I'd suggest that one's standards
should reflect what one feels is appropriate for their life style and
economic situation. Perhaps the original poster would be happy without
fresh milk, but perhaps they wouldn't.

It seems unreasonable to me to say "Don't go cruising unless you are
willing to sacrifice". Instead, I'd suggest that one take only those
amenities one can afford.

In understanding exactly how much refrigeration (or any other amenity)
does cost, including maintenance and repair, especially if one is unable
to do this themselves, one can then judge whether an item is
appropriate. That means having a very real budget a priori and placing
all of one's requirements in the perspective of what can be included in it.

Not a definitive answer to the original question, but certainly an
algorithm that can be applied to any cruiser's "luxury" issue.

Cheers,

Robb


Bob wrote:
All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart. But if everyone did that our economy
would crash. How much of our GNP is from consumer purchasing????

"Akka" wrote in news:1155917423.995950.135660
@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

We put in enough R134a to just barely fill the sight glass -- maybe
that was too much!

Absolutely too much R134a! That's what's happening. The cold plate
overflows with R134a which dumps excess liquid into the compressor. This
blows the hot compressor apart as the liquid instantly turns into high
pressure gas, boiling off inside the little cylinders.

There is a specific amount of R134a to put in every system, just enough to
make the whole cold plate cold, but not enough to dump excess into the
compuressor. You can no longer look at the sight glass and just keep
filling it like the old days.

There's your compressor blown problem.



--
There's amazing intelligence in the Universe.
You can tell because none of them ever called Earth.

"Bob" wrote:


Akka wrote:
We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong.


After reading all the posts so far, I got to admit I do not think I
make enough money and lack the skill to maint a refer system.

So why do you "need" a refer system when most the worlds population
lacks such amenities?

What does that have to do with anything? Most of the world's
population doesn't have good health care. Some of them don't have
enough food or water. Why should you assume that I would want to be
like most of the world's population?

This morning I got up had my oat meal, soy milk, and a few raisins.
Umm........ The soy milk aint milk but the light chocolate soy is
great! Shelf life is about on year. For lunch I think I'll have some

My husband drinks soy milk because he is lactose intolerant. I
normally have a bagel (untoasted and with no cream cheese) for
breakfast, or we have bacon. But what I have for breakfast and
whether I need refrigeration to have that isn't really any of your
business. And it isn't really helping with this question is it?
Which was NOT how can I get by without refrigeration.

I have enjoyed reading Annie Hill's book - she does without
refrigeration, as do the Pardeys. But I can decide on what to take
from their books by myself.

rice, fish, and some veggies. Maybe for dinner a little pasta, veggies,
olive oil, parmesan. Ummmmmm. Oh, and a nice 84 degree F beer. The hops
really stand out over 80 F! Get a good south pacific beer brewed
locally and its got to taste good at 84 degrees. Why? Uhh, who do think
is buying it? Later a snack: fruit salad, pineapple, mango, banana, and
that weird pokey thing that tastes like Juicy Fruit Gum. And speaking
of Hawaiian styled Poke. Nothing like a nice bowl of raw fish. Ummm.

Hey........ just a second! Non of that needed a refer?!?!?

So why do you need a refer? Oh I forgot. For all the visitors when tied
at the dock. I do not do much entertaining. I enjoy sailing. One of the
first things I threw overboard was that cocktail table in the cockpit.
Damn thing kept flapping around when surfing down 20' seas. Also
removed the salon table. Now that was a waste of space. But will be
able to recycle both for various boat projects.

And no I do not think cursing should be "camping in the sixteenth
century."

All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart. But if everyone did that our economy
would crash. How much of our GNP is from consumer purchasing????

Rosalie B. wrote:
"Bob" wrote:

But what I have for breakfast and
whether I need refrigeration to have that isn't really any of your
business.

Granny, I do belive you are baiting me into a fight.


And it isn't really helping with this question is it?
Which was NOT how can I get by without refrigeration.


Sure it is. rip it out and free himself of the frustratin and down time
fixing it.


I have enjoyed reading Annie Hill's book - she does without
refrigeration, as do the Pardeys. But I can decide on what to take
from their books by myself.

True, personally I belive the marketing stratigies in the united states
are rather robust and efective. It certainly has you bamboozled.

All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart.

Are you still angry from our last conversation?

Benevolent Bob

"Bob" wrote:


Rosalie B. wrote:
"Bob" wrote:

But what I have for breakfast and
whether I need refrigeration to have that isn't really any of your
business.

Granny, I do belive you are baiting me into a fight.

I thought that was you baiting me g


And it isn't really helping with this question is it?
Which was NOT how can I get by without refrigeration.


Sure it is. rip it out and free himself of the frustratin and down time
fixing it.

Our boat (which is a very old boat -1979) has a huge fridge
compartment something like 14 cu. ft. Way to big for just the two of
us. But it works, and Bob can keep it running so it isn't a problem
except for figuring out what to fill it up with.

There are all kinds of possibilities for boats - including a portable
12V fridge, or ripping the current fridge out and putting a newer
system in, or doing without. We are going with what we have for now.

But that doesn't help the OP, and I really think that he (or she -
don't remember which) could think of 'rip it out' for himself if it
was something he wanted to do. Possibly his SO doesn't want to do
without refrigeration.

I have enjoyed reading Annie Hill's book - she does without
refrigeration, as do the Pardeys. But I can decide on what to take
from their books by myself.

True, personally I belive the marketing stratigies in the united states
are rather robust and efective. It certainly has you bamboozled.

Marketing strategies for what? The books? The refrigeration? I'm
not buying anything.

All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart.

Are you still angry from our last conversation?

Benevolent Bob

I don't shop if I can possibly avoid it - not at Wal-Mart or anywhere
else. I bought Annie Hill's book at one of the first boat shows I
went to after we got our boat, and it made me want a junk rig (which
Bob wouldn't go for of course). Even people who shop at Wal-Mart may
have good ideas on occasion and I'm always on the lookout for such.
(although I'm not going to eat sushi)

Bob wrote:

Sure it is. rip it out and free himself of the frustratin and down time
fixing it.


Benevolent Bob

OK...so burn your house down and move into a tepee on the empty lot.
Don't forget to close off the water/sewer lines.

As to trying to convert me to your chosen lifestyle...you sound like a
lot of religious fundamentalists (pick any religion you want). "You
WILL _______ what I tell you to".

Steve Thrasher wrote:


OK...so burn your house down and move into a tepee on the empty lot.
Don't forget to close off the water/sewer lines.

As to trying to convert me to your chosen lifestyle...you sound like a
lot of religious fundamentalists (pick any religion you want). "You
WILL _______ what I tell you to".



Hi Thrasher:

Gezz. I did not think eating oatmeal and soymilk would get you so
upset.

I would not like to see your reaction when something important happens.

As far as the whole high v. low tech sailing philosophy you might want
to read some of that drive-by-mainstream-media for an interesting
discusssion on this topic. The article describes how a guy basically
spent his two week island cruise fixing the refer and other stuff. If I
remember right, it was printed in that liberal-tree hugging-commie rag
titled Cruising World a few months back.

Besides, most of us have, at one time or another, watched somebody
toiling over a task that you knew how to do safer, faster, cheaper, and
easier. True...no?

As I said earlier I neither have the money to hire someone to fix a
refer, the knowledge to do it myself, nor the desire to spend any more
time mucking about elbow deep in work.
So I chose to eat oatmeal and soymilk, raw or boiled fish, cabbage,
carrots, onions, pasta, and drink crisp 80 degree beer. Travel light-
Travel easy-Travel fast.

So I'll end here and hope that somebody can help the guy fix his
refrigerator. Personally I don't have one. I have better things to do
than fix stuff on a boat.

Bob