Bob opined:
On that same show they tested 2 people and 1 said that the drug that
worked best was the placebo (sugar pill). Of course when they tested
him, they told him that it was a new drug and he didn't get sick at
all. That tells me for some it is a mind game. If you feel relaxed
and believe it what you are taking will cure you, you will be fine.


This is an excellent point................ What is the expected placebo
effect for any given sample/study group? Cant remember but I think the
folks who submit to the NJM mentioned, maybe 6%-12% of people are head
cases.

Anybody know the typical expected placebo effect for humans?

Bob

A few years ago there was a widely published study (released to the news
media) that pitted placebo against the well known SSRI's like Paxil,
etc. What they found was that several drugs made people worse, the drug
that worked the best scored a 15% improvement (subjective, rated by the
patients on standardized scoresheets) and the placebo rated 45%.

Evidently, since the brain controls the body, and the mind controls the
brain - then changing the mind can change the body's responses. This is
borne out by studies of people with multiple personalities: several
documented cases of M.P's have a serious disease in the body during the
manifestation of one personality, but not during another. One case I
remember reading about the patient had type I diabetes (non-insulin
producing) in one personality, but produced normal levels of insulin in
another personality as measured during blood tests.

A good demonstration is when a hypnotist has the subject believe they
are as stiff as a board, and is then placed horizontally over two chairs
- one under the head, the other under the feet. Then the hypnotist
stands on the suspended person's belly with no apparent strain by the
subject to hold him up for an extended time period. Most demonstration
subjects report that they felt no strain or effort during the
demonstration. Beliefs are powerful.

Sailaway wrote:
A few years ago there was a widely published study (released to the news
media) that pitted placebo against the well known SSRI's like Paxil,
etc. What they found was that several drugs made people worse, the drug
that worked the best scored a 15% improvement (subjective, rated by the
patients on standardized scoresheets) and the placebo rated 45%.
Beliefs are powerful.

Geeze.......... 45%!?!?!

But I gotta ask who were the test subjects? Were they or had been SSRI
users?

If so I would think the study was skewed with a bunch of head cases. I
just can not believe that 45% of the general population would say they
felt better after swalling a sugar cube.

But hey, may be I am just ignorant and not in touch with my inner
spiritual healing center. I'll sell my boat buy an 18' teepee, eat
tofu, shove alfalfa up my ass, and find some fat chick with hairy legs
to share my spiritual quest while living on USFS land and collecting
food stamps?

SantaCruze-SF-Ashland-Eugene.....

"Bob" wrote in message


and the placebo rated 45%.
Beliefs are powerful.

Geeze.......... 45%!?!?!

But I gotta ask who were the test subjects? Were they or had been SSRI
users?

If so I would think the study was skewed with a bunch of head cases. I
just can not believe that 45% of the general population would say they
felt better after swalling a sugar cube.


Placebo effects are interesting, and the effects can be large, but vary with
type of intervention and condition.

As an example, some years ago I read a trial of the different placebo
effects of different coloured pills- white ones didn't have much of an
effect, red and yellow a bit more, pink, candy-striped and other wilder
colours a bit more again, but the best of the lot were the black pills!

Likewise physical interventions like back manipulation/ acupuncture etc have
a higher placebo effect than simply taking a pill.

Also, the condition treated affects the placebo response- for example trials
of migraine remedies often exhibit a placebo response of over 50%, but it is
not sustained over time. I suspect seasickness would have a high placebo
response.

All this explains why we in medicine go to the trouble of double blinded,
placebo controlled trials to take out the errors of observer bias and
placebo response.

Peter HK (physician)

"Peter HK" wrote in news:RZ1ng.15080$ap3.4397
@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

As an example, some years ago I read a trial of the different placebo
effects of different coloured pills- white ones didn't have much of an
effect, red and yellow a bit more, pink, candy-striped and other wilder
colours a bit more again, but the best of the lot were the black pills!



I apologize, but I just have to post a story that goes along with this
hypothesis.....

A psychologist was researching the way small children react to colors. In
his research, he used various flavors of life savers getting the children
to match the color to the taste.

He gave the childred red and they quickly identified it as cherry....green,
lime....yellow, lemon and so on.

A stumbling block came when he gave them the beige colored honey life
savers. They couldn't identify the flavor because most of them had never
tasted honey, so he gave them a hint to move the program along.

"It's something Mommy calls Daddy at night.", he told them.

IMMEDIATELY this little girl spit her beige life saver out on the floor and
stuck out her tongue to clear the taste!

"Oooooh, Yuck! It's ASSHOLE!", she yelled puckering up her face.

Bob wrote:
Geeze.......... 45%!?!?!

But I gotta ask who were the test subjects? Were they or had been SSRI
users?

If so I would think the study was skewed with a bunch of head cases. I
just can not believe that 45% of the general population would say they
felt better after swalling a sugar cube.
Snip

Hi Bob,
I don't recall all the details of the study , I just had the small
newspaper article about it a few years ago. From what I recollect all
the patients were people who had mild depression, which is what SSRI's
are generally supposed to be for. I don't recall if the article stated
if the patients had experience using SSRI's prior to the study.

A good demonstration is when a hypnotist has the subject believe they
are as stiff as a board, and is then placed horizontally over two chairs
- one under the head, the other under the feet. Then the hypnotist
stands on the suspended person's belly with no apparent strain by the
subject to hold him up for an extended time period. Most demonstration
subjects report that they felt no strain or effort during the
demonstration. Beliefs are powerful.

So has anyone had any luck with getting a hypnotist/hypnotherapist do
their anti-seasickness magic on board, or before boarding? Anyone knows
a hypnotherapist would you please invite the person to do the work on
samples (if possible, a number large enough to be statistically
significant and on double-blind studies, but for this early stage any
reports will be just fine) please......? Please report back on this
forum, it will be just revolutionary.

Solo Thesailor
http://sailingstoriesandtips.blogspot.com Read the story about the
missing yacht in Bass Strait -that'll tell you about the seastate...

Solo Thesailor wrote:
So has anyone had any luck with getting a hypnotist/hypnotherapist do
their anti-seasickness magic on board, or before boarding? Anyone knows
a hypnotherapist would you please invite the person to do the work on
samples (if possible, a number large enough to be statistically
significant and on double-blind studies, but for this early stage any
reports will be just fine) please......? Please report back on this
forum, it will be just revolutionary.

Solo Thesailor

The trouble with doing it onboard is that you need the person's
attention, and their attention is usually focused strongly on their
feelings. It certainly can be done, but most people in that state will
be uncooperative, despite their own best efforts.

Doing it right before hand depends upon, once again, getting their
undivided attention - easier than when they are already sick, but even
better is to do it long before they even go to the marina, esp. in a
professional setting.

As for double blind, placebo-controlled, crossover studies... since
we're dealing with an abstract (the mind) I wonder if that sort of study
is applicable. There seems to be enormous differences in the abilities
of hypnotists, so that would have to be factored in. Plus, some
hypnotists are experts in stage hypnosis, while others are better in
clinical settings. There are people out there that will get change from
one type, but not the other. I would think you would have to do the
complete study with one hypnotist, then repeat the whole thing using
another hypnotist, etc. just to get pretty good results of some kind to
make the study valid.

Sailaway wrote:
... but even
better is to do it long before they even go to the marina, esp. in a
professional setting.
.....
Is there some basis for this or is it an opinion/theory -I would
appreciate further thoughts. Might actually call on a hypnotherapist
before a 7-10 days 1,150 nM race, am wondering wheter it is better
nearer the time.
Cheers
Solo Thesailor
http://sailingstoriesandtips.blogspot.com

Solo Thesailor wrote:
Sailaway wrote:
... but even
better is to do it long before they even go to the marina, esp. in a
professional setting.
.....

Is there some basis for this or is it an opinion/theory -I would
appreciate further thoughts. Might actually call on a hypnotherapist
before a 7-10 days 1,150 nM race, am wondering wheter it is better
nearer the time.
Cheers
Solo Thesailor
http://sailingstoriesandtips.blogspot.com

For most people your ability to relax, follow instructions, and trust
the hypnotist you're working with are the important things in order to
have the best results. With some stage hypnotists its a little different
because the whole setting and dynamics are different. But the majority
of people will be able to make lasting internal change in their
responses during a clinical setting where the hypnotist has far more
control in the process, as well as the time to do it right. In addition,
most (not all) stage hypnotists are not very good at change work, and
may not even have that kind of training. Remember, their main job is
entertainment.

NLP, a much more sophisticated form of hypnosis is frequently much
faster and more eloquent in making lasting change, and many clinical
hypnotists have some of that training. NLP is frequently done while you
are in a fully conscious state, rather than in the deeply relaxed state
normally associated with hypnosis.

All that said, while it is very possible to have the change you are
looking for with almost any hypnotist, there is still the small chance
of just not 'clicking' with the hypnotist you are working with. Most
people will have some results from a session, many people will have good
results, and a few will not get results. This may not be anyone's fault,
it may just be dynamics and if that should happen you should definitely
go to another experienced hypnotist. Keep this in mind, hypnosis isn't
magic, it is a way of using techniques that your mind already is
familiar with and is using to learn. But just like you don't always
learn well with one teacher in school, another will present the same
subject in a slightly different way and you just *magically* understand
it - it just 'clicks'.

As for doing it nearer the time of the race, it shouldn't matter if the
job was done right. If you get permanent change then its a done deal.
But you may want to test it while you still have time before the race so
you are sure.

Thank you Sailaway. I will search for a good hypnotherapist and do it.
Additionally it would be great to have other people get the treatment
too so that collectively we might work towards a good cure. Just
imagine....how fantastic that would be!

BTW don't you differentiate hypnotherapists (fix problems, subject
fully conscious) from hypnotists? Would you need repeat sessions every
few years?

How best do I find a good one?

Any reports from hypnotherapists/hypnotists/nueropsychologists? Any of
you are sailors??

Vance, Vance, Vance....come in please, any take on this? Any stories?

From: Vance E. Lear - view profile
Date: Sun, Sep 28 1997 12:00 am
Groups: alt.sailing.asa

Hypnosis can be very effective in suppressing "Sea Sickness" without
undesirable side-effects. The problem is in finding a "hypnotist" who
has the slighttest idea of what theyare doing.

Vance E. Lear, Ph.D., Nueropsychology.

Solo Thesailor
http://sailingstoriesandtips.blogspot.com