Roger Long wrote:
There's been some discussion recently about what insurance has done to
aviation. It could come to boating someday.

There was just a post on the owner's forum for my boat that someone is
having trouble getting insurance in the Gulf and Florida region for a
boat more than five years old. Has anyone heard anything similar?
Any chance this is the first high cirrus clouds of approaching bad
weather?

--

Roger Long

Hi Roger:

Gtood question!
Instead of turning this into a useless polital thread with 189 post
I'll try this:

Boat: 39.3', 1979, solid glass hull
Insured Valued: $69,000
Enviornmetal clean up $500,000
Liability: $500,000
Medical: $25,000 per incident
Area of operation: PNW, Out about 100 miles.
Premium/year: $304






Company................ Allstate

Please list your rates. Maybe we can do somthing or at least be better
informed.
Bob

Hi Roger,

Having been a pilot since the mid-1970's, I watched the
insurance debacle in aviation unfold. I expect that you did
also.

IIRC, the problem was not with the insurance companies per
se, but with the change in juries attitudes toward aviation
accidents. Juries became much more willing to blame the
manufacturers and to "send a message" by assessing punitive
damages against pilots estates, repair facilities, component
manufacturers, and the airplane manufacturers. All of the
small plane manufacturers that I know of with the exception
of Beechcraft were either driven into bankruptcy, or stopped
producing small airplanes.
The insurance companies responded to the dramatically
increased jury awards by raising the insurance premiums for
pilots, maintenance facilities, and manufacturers. At one
point, the product liability insurance on Cessna light
planes was higher than the manufacturing cost of the
airplane!! The cost of new airplanes more than doubled in a
couple of years because the manufacturers had to add the new
product liability insurance costs to the sales price. Now
we have new airplanes that cost more than most peoples
houses, and very few insurance companies to choose from.
The few aviation insurance underwriters that are out there
often refuse outright to insure pilots until they meet the
minimum experience criterion set up by the underwriter.

This relates to boating because Florida and the Gulf coast
have been hammered pretty regularly the last couple of
years, and the predictions are that this will continue for
some time. I'm under the impression that most insurance
companies do not "self insure", but hedge their risks by
buying larger polices from groups such as Lloyds, etc. When
the underwriters payouts become too much for what they are
charging, the cost of insurance is going to go up. If the
perceived risk becomes unacceptable, the underwriters are
going to drop out of the market altogether, and insurance
will be unobtainable at any price. Of course that is not a
problem if you own your boat outright, and are willing to
lose it if things go badly. ;-) It is only the bankers who
force people to buy insurance, and only then to make sure
that they don't lose their collateral.

I don't expect boat insurance will be difficult to obtain or
particularly expensive _unless_ you live in an area that is
at risk from the more active Atlantic hurricane seasons.
(Check out all the salvage boats on EBAY that were sunk by
Katrina).

Regards,

Don W.


Roger Long wrote:
There's been some discussion recently about what insurance has done to
aviation. It could come to boating someday.

There was just a post on the owner's forum for my boat that someone is
having trouble getting insurance in the Gulf and Florida region for a
boat more than five years old. Has anyone heard anything similar?
Any chance this is the first high cirrus clouds of approaching bad
weather?

Dave wrote:
That sounds like a helluva deal. Practical sailor just ran a comparison, but
I don't think they showed anything near that low. Rates seem to go up as you
go south, both because of hurricanes and because of more months in the
water.

Who's your carrier?

Hi Dave........

Ya, that is what I thought too. When I bought my boat August 2001 I
experinced the same as other posters: Boat to old to get a loan. Boat
too old to get insurance. A surveyor while in Port Townsend WA
mentioned quietly to try Allstate.

I am in the PNW and since I got the coverage in 2001 have stayed in the
area. I am dreading my insurance options when I headout in 2007.

I also have never made a claim. I do get a "safe boater" discount for
having one of thoes dreaded state boat driver license. I did not think
they needed to know about my "other" license. Did not want to mix work
and recreation.
Livin' on the cheep, Bob


PS Oh you wont belive how much I pay for a 40' slip

prodigal1 wrote:

Hah! Such a cynic! ;-)
I've kf'd "the Dave" but it's actually helpful that you quoted him. His
rant illustrates my point. Sheeple like "the Dave" line up to get
fleeced by "insurance" companies, and seemingly enjoy the experience so
much, they can't conceive of getting anything _but_ fleeced. Curious
how BC's Republican wannabe premier Gordon Campbell hasn't privatised
the public Insurance Corporation of BC. Why let all that profit go into
private hands when it can help pay for roads, schools and hospitals.

I was putting the first gas in my newly leased Ford Ranger pickup this
afternoon. While mildly complaining to the girl at the booth about the
$1.14 liter price of self-serve regular, she informed me that she just
came down from BC and can't believe how high our gas prices *and*
insurance rates are. Said she can't afford to drive her car in Nova
Scotia and the $1800.00 yearly insurance rate here was only $900.00 in BC.
I said that wasn't too bad for a young person, but she said she's 27
with 10 years driving under her belt.

Well said Dave ..

====

Of course Roger could do what I do ... NO INSURANCE.

I rely on ME.

If the boat sinks,, that is the way it goes!


------------------------------------------------------
"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:53:44 -0400, prodigal1 said:

Why is it that no one ever suggests that it's time to bring parasitic
entities such as "insurance companies" to heel? _Long_past_time_ for
public insurance I think. Something that meets the needs of the insured
rather than the greed of the stockholders of the insurance companies.

Why is there always some genius in a group who seems to think that 1000
members of the govment employees' local union are going to do a better job
than people with a profit motive? Such economic ignorance never ceases to
astound me.

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Well said Dave ..

====

Of course Roger could do what I do ... NO INSURANCE.

I rely on ME.

If the boat sinks,, that is the way it goes!


I thought you were still looking for a boat?

Why would you need marine insurance without a boat?

(If anyone ever sees proof that he actually bought that "BIG" boat in
Maine that "is being painted right now", please let me know and maybe
I'll un-killfile him.)

--

Roger Long



"Don White" wrote in message
...
Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Well said Dave ..

====

Of course Roger could do what I do ... NO INSURANCE.

I rely on ME.

If the boat sinks,, that is the way it goes!


I thought you were still looking for a boat?

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:17:04 -0400, JimH wrote:

Public insurance translated means government run insurance.............no
thanks.

I'm presuming you're American (osudad) and have never had any experience
with public insurance, so I have to ask myself on what your rejection of
the idea is based. Ideology? pfftt.... There are places in the world
where this works very well. People get the coverage they want, at rates
they find acceptable AND profits go toward public services like schools,
roads, hospitals... What's not to like?

Why are you so bitter about insurance company's?

I've had long experience with private insurance.....no thanks. Rates and
policies are legalised theft and extortion.

They are in the business
of making a profit for their shareholders....

My point exactly, their primary reasons for being are not to meet the
needs of those paying for their services, but rather to increase profit.
It just boggles my mind that so many cannot see the inherent
inappropriateness of this scenario.

and adjust rates accordingly
to attain that goal. Don't like what one company charges....find
another. There are plenty to go around.

And where I live you can't find a statistically significant difference
in premiums between any of the companies.

Don't like the high rates you
pay because you live in hurricane alley.......then move.

Don't live in hurricane alley...top end of tornado alley. I shouldn't
have to even contemplate moving because the company I pay large $$ to
insure against potential loss, inflates rates to show profits more in line
with stock trader's "earnings expectations" than to cover actual losses
and still show a profit. Big difference there.

We are all paying for the hurricane damage to your boats, cars and
houses with our insurance premiums and with our taxes through government
subsidies and other government spending. I for one am damn tired of
doing so.

So pay up or move. Don't ask me to continue to subsidize you though.

now I understand, you're allright, but anyone who suffers a loss can go
pound salt. Nice. I don't get it. You along with
tens of millions of other premium payers will willingly keep coughing up
more and more $$ for less and less coverage, all the while blaming the
increasing cost of premiums on claimants --which isn't at all the main
cause-- and yet never consider for a moment that there might be a better
insurance solution that meets the insurance customer's needs first.
Absolutely bizarre.

On 11 Apr 2006 15:18:01 -0500, Dave wrote:

While nobody else "forces" people to insure their boats, my impression is
that most boats are insured whether or not purchased on credit.

If you have assets other than your boat, and hopefully you do, going
without insurance is extremely unwise. One serious liability or
environmental claim could force you into bankruptcy. If nothing else,
the insurance company will defend the claim with seriously competent
lawyers, at their expense.

prodigal1 wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:

Getting insurance on older boats has been an issue for quite awhile
but now it is getting worse, a lot worse in places like Florida and
the Gulf Coast. It's not just boats either, houses also. Our home
insurance just doubled last week and we've had no claims.

Why is it that no one ever suggests that it's time to bring parasitic
entities such as "insurance companies" to heel? _Long_past_time_ for
public insurance I think. Something that meets the needs of the insured
rather than the greed of the stockholders of the insurance companies.

Then every policy could be like social security. Buster - government is
the PROBLEM. It's not the solution to anything.