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#2
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yacht water storage links -Mic
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 20:09:06 GMT, (Mic) wrote:
I was interested in the options for water storage on yachts. Some have intergral to the hull storage, but in many of those discussions there is no direct reference to lining materials. High quality boats almost never have integral tanks - for water or fuel. |
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#3
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yacht water storage links -Mic
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 19:30:58 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 20:09:06 GMT, (Mic) wrote: I was interested in the options for water storage on yachts. Some have intergral to the hull storage, but in many of those discussions there is no direct reference to lining materials. High quality boats almost never have integral tanks - for water or fuel. Deerfoot 62 - a new all stainless steel keel with integral fuel tanks and internal lead ballast.??? A Dashew boat?? I cant say whether that is true or not and for what reason, nor am I really interested in debating that either. My thoughts on it are based on James Baldwin's Triton refit and the Practical Sailor article quoted below. I also did a little google research and listed those refering to intergral.... West systems doesnt advise it.... but I believe the european union concensus allow them... if you do have them they certainly have to be baffled, and then comes the debate as to where they ought to be located, etc. I also question if there is in fact a concensus on the reasons why "intergral" is actually choosen. Economic vs practial.... The purpose of this research was based on materials alone and not really any other consideration per say as it seems that a decision whether or not to have intergral is individual. http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/8187/ "Many individual tanks, integral to hull, some as fuel tank, some as water tank, some as floatation tank. " W. De Vries Lentsch - One off design 16.00 metres Hull Material: Steel http://www.morganscloud.com/aboutmc.htm We carry 285 US gallons of fuel in integral tanks in the keel stub. http://www.deckersailing.com/retrofit.htm two integral water tanks that hold 110 gallons of fresh water. Beneteau 375 http://www.yandina.com/Boat4Sale/Specifications.htm The 5 integral fuel tanks are connected to two fuel transfer consoles, one for engines www.oceannavigator.com/article.php?a=993 Sunrider has integral tanks with 300 gallons capacity and can use fuel bladders ... travel in tandem with a 55-foot sailboat that carried jugs of Biodiesel. http://www.practical-sailor.com/tools/features.html http://www.practical-sailor.com/news...s/874tanks.pdf "Part II: Integral Tanks by Keith Lawrence The practice of building tanks integral with the hull (using the hull shell to form part of the tank) comes not-so-highly recommended by many authors. Generally, these are the same experts that would prefer that all marine tanks be made of monel. But I would hasten to point out that many, if not most, large fiberglass commercial fishing vessels are built on hulls that are comprised almost entirely of integral FRP tanks, and many of these boats have been in service for over thirty years now. For commercial vessels built of aluminum or steel, integral metal tanks are the rule, rather than the exception." "The primary argument against integral tanks seems to be that flexing of the hull will eventually cause stress fractures in the corners of the tanks leading to seepage. " "The other popular argument against integral tanks is that if the hull skin is punctured, then the tank is also ruptured. This, I feel, is one of the strongest arguments in favor of integral tanks, rather than against them. It seems to me that sal****er sloshing around in a fuel tank is a much easier problem to solve than saltwalter rising over the berthtops." "While the cost of materials for integral tanks is relatively low, the labor cost is significant. This is why they are often found in custom or one-off boats, and rarely found in production boats. " _____________________ NOTE: the word "intergral" is took to mean part of the boat rather than a part in the boat.... http://www.nautilusmarineyachtbroker.../newsnov99.htm Fuel: Diesel in 2 s/s tanks. Total capacity 450 litres Water: 2 integral tanks http://www.2hulls.com/usedcatamaran-...iinaMaria.html Fuel Capacity:, 120 gallons, aluminum tank ... 750 ltrs ( 180 galls) fresh water in two integral water tanks (one ea. hull). http://www.pacificseacraft.com/cgi-b....php?0100,news - 21k On the subject of tanks, there are three fiberglass water tanks, built integral to the hull, that hold 150 gallons of fresh water. Deerfoot 62 - a new all stainless steel keel with integral fuel tanks and internal lead ballast. www.capedory.org/nqarticle/index.html An integral 36-gallon fiberglass holding tank is glassed into the hull molding above the ... http://www.yachtshare.com/cgi-bin/di...small?bid=3225 2002 64' Blue Dragon by 2 Hulls, Inc. - Home Page 220 gallon integral water tank with deck fill; www.imci.org/downloads/Dir9425ECen.pdf may be kept in tanks that are integral with the hull. [PDF] Technical Documentation File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML above 55°c may be kept in tanks that. are integral with the hull. ... Sailboat and single-engine inboard. powered motor boats with remote- ... http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/4...umentation.pdf - "BoatShow" Passoa 47 Information on Passoa 47, a sailboat profiled at Ovation's online boat show, ... and includes integral fuel and water tanks, ballast and all non mechanical ... www.boatshow.com/Passoa47.html [DOC] TOPLANTI RAPORU File Format: Microsoft Word 2000 - View as HTML Diesel fuel may be kept in tanks that are integral with the hull. ... Sailboat and single-engined inboard powered motor boats with remote-controlled rudder ... http://www.denizcilik.gov.tr/anlasma...iNGHAZ2005.doc - Richards 38 Manual The fuel system consists of two integral fiberglass fuel tanks. ... These two dissimilar but important optional items should be on every sailboat. ... www.cheoyleeassociation.com/Richards38manual.htm - 57k |
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#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yacht water storage links -Mic
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 20:09:06 GMT, (Mic) wrote: I was interested in the options for water storage on yachts. Some have intergral to the hull storage, but in many of those discussions there is no direct reference to lining materials. High quality boats almost never have integral tanks - for water or fuel. Our water tanks are build into the hull. I think our boat is quite high quality. grandma Rosalie S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD CSY 44 WO #156 http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html |
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#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yacht water storage links -Mic
On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 22:26:02 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote: High quality boats almost never have integral tanks - for water or fuel. Our water tanks are build into the hull. I think our boat is quite high quality. And no doubt it is. I think my my statement about "almost never" is still true however, even though the reasons are not necessarily clear. There may be less of an issue with integral water tanks as opposed to fuel, certainly leaks/safety are less of a concern. There have been many, many instances of fiberglass fuel tanks degrading because of fuel/resin interactions, especially with ethanol/gasoline. There's no reason to think that those same interactions wouldn't take place place with the resin in a hull, with even more serious consequences. My first cruising sailboat was a Westerly 28 which was reasonably well built in most respects. It did have an integral water tank however built in underneath the V berths. The tank eventually began leaking, probably from being repeatedly being stressed at its aft bulkhead. We never did find a totally satisfactory cure and would probably have needed to rip out the V berths, reinforce/rebuild the tank, and put the whole thing back together. Here's another data point. In the process of switching from sail to power several years ago we spent quite a bit of time looking at offshore sport fishing boats made by Bertram, Hatteras and Viking. We already had some experience with our old Bertram 33 and had come to appreciate just how well it had been built. All three of these builders have (or had) a reputation for building tough high quality boats that could go offshore and take a pounding. Not a single one that we looked at had integral fuel or water tanks. They were all fiberglass hulls of course and that may be part of the reason but I'm not sure. It is true that many steel hulled boats, and some with aluminum hulls have integral tanks but it is not clear if that is coincidental or structural. Perhaps Roger Long could cast some light on the question? |
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#6
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yacht water storage links -Mic
High quality boats almost never have integral tanks - for water or
fuel. Our water tanks are build into the hull. I think our boat is quite high quality. Wayne.B wrote: And no doubt it is. I think my my statement about "almost never" is still true however, even though the reasons are not necessarily clear. From what I've seen, CSY's are pretty good boats. I'd agree that... all else being equal... integral tanks are not as good... Of course, all else is very rarely equal. Integral do have one strong point in their favor, that is their effect on the center of gravity can be better if they are integrally located down low in the hull's structure. And as Wayne B mentions in his post this is commonly done in metal boats. There may be less of an issue with integral water tanks as opposed to fuel, certainly leaks/safety are less of a concern. There have been many, many instances of fiberglass fuel tanks degrading because of fuel/resin interactions, especially with ethanol/gasoline. There's no reason to think that those same interactions wouldn't take place place with the resin in a hull, with even more serious consequences. It's a big deal to have the tank surfaced properly for whatever is stored in it, and to have proper access, proper plumbing connections, level indicators, vents, etc etc. It's more difficult to provide these with an integral tank so good builders prefer not to invest the additional labor for a small benefit, and so they make the tanks seperately... cheapo builders aren't concerned about that (they aren't going to do it all properly anyway) and don't want to spend the extra money for the tank itself. And of course, it's far more difficult to remove & re-plumb an integral tank. Been some big improvements in bladder tanks recently, this is the way I'd go if I were looking at replacing any tankage on board (except holding tanks). Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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#7
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yacht water storage links -Mic
"Wayne.B" wrote
Perhaps Roger Long could cast some light on the question? I struggled with this question a lot when international standards and the Coast Guard's starting to enforce Public Health Department rules made potable water skin tanks illegal in vessels. Watermakers have eased the situation somewhat but I was designing sailing school vessels before they were at the state of the art they are today. Imagine putting enough water for a highly populated, slow, vessel that makes long voyages into separate tanks with enough space to get around the outsides for inspection and the bottoms two feet above any possible bilge water level. You could use up 10% - 15% of the vessel's usable accommodations capacity pretty easily. The solution was to have a small potable water tank that went to the galley and the drinking fountains and big skin tanks that went everywhere else. All the other water outlets, such as in the heads, would have a little sign that said, "Not suitable for drinking." Everyone would brush their teeth or drink it anyway. It's more of an issue on steel vessels where damage or a corrosion pin hole wouldn't be discovered in the fresh water tanks. People might get an unhealthy dose of salt without noticing it. Worse, they might get some really nasty cholera bug in some port. This isn't much different from our sailboat where the water in the big tank tastes bad. Potable water is a bunch of plastic bottles under a bunk. It's actually a lot easier to hand a new one up to the thirsty helmsman than keep refilling a glass. Before any long voyages away from reliable water supply though, I've got to tackle cleaning out that tank and piping system. When was the last time you found water seeping through a pin hole or other damage in the skin of your fiberglass boat? That's about the risk level of an integral tank. Without the Coast Guard looking over my plans, I'd put an integral tank in any boat and just keep an eye on the hull and the taste of the water. Another reason though for using bottled water, despite confidence in your tanks, is all the funky stuff that can get into marina hoses and piping. It doesn't take much getting in when the pipes and hoses sit out there warm in the sun. Even though we don't drink the water from our tank, I like to fill it on a weekend when lots of people have been hosing off their boats and filling their tanks just in case a guest pours themselves a glass. -- Roger Long |
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#8
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yacht water storage links -Mic
Wayne.B wrote:
There may be less of an issue with integral water tanks as opposed to fuel, certainly leaks/safety are less of a concern. There have been many, many instances of fiberglass fuel tanks degrading because of fuel/resin interactions, especially with ethanol/gasoline. snip That's why "tank resin" is applied to the interior of fuel/potable water/hydraulic/waste/etc/etc vessels. Carries a mil-spec for the procedure as I remember. Lew |
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#9
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yacht water storage links -Mic
"Roger Long" wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote Perhaps Roger Long could cast some light on the question? Another reason though for using bottled water, despite confidence in your tanks, is all the funky stuff that can get into marina hoses and piping. It doesn't take much getting in when the pipes and hoses sit out there warm in the sun. Even though we don't drink the water from our tank, I like to fill it on a weekend when lots of people have been hosing off their boats and filling their tanks just in case a guest pours themselves a glass. We do both. We carry 400 gallons of water in two tanks. We wash our boat before we fill the tanks. I have no hesitation about drinking water from the tanks. We also freeze water in bottles at home and put the frozen bottles in the frig and freezer on the boat to help it keep cold. The ones in the refrigerator we periodically put in the head for drinking or taking pills. We also use those bottles to make sunshine tea. But when we are living aboard, we keep the water fresh enough to drink provided we don't fill the tanks with bad water to begin with. grandma Rosalie |
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#10
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yacht water storage links -Mic
I used to love sunshine tea and never had a problem drinking it but
someone (can't remember who but I do remember that they were credible on such subjects) told me that you can get very, very sick from it. The tea leaves grow in far a way places, often are spread out on tarps in the sun to dry, birds fly over, etc. You put this highly organic stuff in a bottle and let it heat up to just about the optimum temperature range for bacterial growth and then drink it. I'd like to know just how much of a concern this really is. The person who told me explained it as one of those things you'll get away with for years but can get life threateningly sick. BTW I'd have no hesitation about drinking the water out of our tank either except that it tastes like essence of old boat. -- Roger Long |
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