wrote:
I do not feel differently.
Same thing happened to me.
Another classic is the offer scenario.
The following technique works wells.
A boat's real price is around $50,000. The broker is asking $85,000 and is
fishing for about $65,000. You know he is way out to lunch. You like the
boat but you hesitate to make an offer of $50,000. because you might insult
the seller/broker. You request to sea trial the boat. The broker states
that he need a firm offer before a sea trial can take place. You then
decide to make an offer of $60,000. The broker tells you that your offer
is too low and make you feel a little cheap. Later the broker comes in with
a counter offer of $75,000. You tell him that it is too high, then he tells
you to make another offer. Then you both agree to go half way to
$68,500.00. At that stage you feel happy because you negotiated the price
from $85,000. to $68,500. Conversely the seller/broker is please to have
sold a $50,000. for $68,500. and the seller does not mind to paid the broker
his commission.
The above scenario may vary but the game remains the same. I hope that
other people will validate or disagree with the above.

I agree. I think this same general pattern can applied to anyone who
sells something for someone else looking to make money as the middle man
with nothing invested himself except time. Real estate agents, car
salesmen etc.

I guess there is a requirement if you know nothing about what you are
looking for. For example, if I was moving to some city I had never
visited and needed a place to live. But if I'm moving down the street
or to a small town then what does the agent do?

Like I said earlier, I firmly believe the best (used) boats never get to
a broker. That is why dock walking is the sport of kings!

Gary

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:29:49 GMT, wrote:

I do not feel differently.
Same thing happened to me.
Another classic is the offer scenario.
The following technique works wells.
A boat's real price is around $50,000. The broker is asking $85,000 and is
fishing for about $65,000. You know he is way out to lunch. You like the
boat but you hesitate to make an offer of $50,000. because you might insult
the seller/broker.

I don't give a damn about insulting the seller/broker. I dealt
privately with a guy who went from $31K to $23K over a beer. I offered
$19K. He looked shocked, because 12 years back, he had paid $35K or
something. I said: "That was the eighties, this is 1999 and the boat
is tired and survey says X, Y and Z need immediate attention" We
agreed much closer to my price than to his.

I've spent about $10K on the boat. If I get $28-30K, I'll be quite
fortunate. But the boat is 33 this year, and even though structurally
and functionally it's arguably "better than factory", it's
unfashionable and cosmetically compromised G. C'est la vie. It sails
great. Sellers have to get real that not everyone finds their "wives"
irresistable. I am currently looking at more than one steel cruiser in
the Great Lakes, most of which need finishing. What "you paid for cool
stuff" is frankly irrelevant to me as a buyer. I am aware it's a small
pond in terms of brutal steel ketches. It's more like "sell it or
don't". 95% of people will get a used C&C or J/Boat or a new
Beneteau/Hunter/Catalina. It's the way of things. Your very capable
offshore tank ain't going to command a premium here.


You request to sea trial the boat. The broker states
that he need a firm offer before a sea trial can take place. You then
decide to make an offer of $60,000. The broker tells you that your offer
is too low and make you feel a little cheap.

Sod it. Immediately look him in the eye, tell him your offer is now
$59,000 and will drop by $1,000/minute for every minute he blocks your
sea trial. Tell him it's the fine old tradition of capitalism, and
reach for the doorknob.

Later the broker comes in with
a counter offer of $75,000. You tell him that it is too high, then he tells
you to make another offer. Then you both agree to go half way to
$68,500.00. At that stage you feel happy because you negotiated the price
from $85,000. to $68,500. Conversely the seller/broker is please to have
sold a $50,000. for $68,500. and the seller does not mind to paid the broker
his commission.

********. Brokers can be a great help and can really facilitate a
sale, but at times they have the function and utility of crack ho
pimps. It's clear early on which type you have in hand, and whether or
not you need to put your wallet back and walk on. There's always
another stroll.

R.

Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars.

and can the survey even be relied on.

in the end i think the best thing is for whoever is buying the boat to
know what they are buying. someone cruising, in my opinion, can't be
like someone who buys a car, or an rv, or even a house. those things
you can hire some folks to come in and take a look at it for you, a
mechanic, someone looking for termites, an appraiser, etc, and you act
on whatever they say. but a sailboat, that's your life on the line ...
it's not just inconvenient to have the boat sink out from under you, so
you have to take more responsibility as a buyer to watch out for your
own person.

so my opinion, and it's just that, is that it's ok to hear what the
broker and owner say, and it's even better to bring in a diesel
mechanic to look at the engine, and a surveyor to do a survey, etc, but
that in the end you have to be out there ripping the floor up to look
at the hull yourself, checking the zincs, finding out if the electrical
is a mess or not, looking in the bilge (if the boat isn't on the dirt),
climbing up the mast to check the rigging for hints about it's age,
etc, etc, because in the end a lot of these things are things you'll be
trusting your life to. and since it's your life, it isn't that great
of an idea to trust it to someone else no matter how much they know.
even in cars, you sort of trust your life to a mechanic when he works
on your brakes, but not nearly so much is at stake as there is with
your hull, or your rigging. your brakes on a car usually fail slowly,
but even if they failed suddenly you'd be in a crash at worst, maybe
lose your life, but most likely just smash up the car. most likely
you'd just get out, walk around, check to see that the other driver was
ok, you'd wait for fire and rescue, sue your mechanic, etc haha. but
if your boat has water coming in through a misplaced through-hull, or
water comes in through the engine or something, you're suddenly at the
mercy of a giant ocean, and there's really nobody there to help you ...
if your radio/electrical failed not even a way to tell them you need
help (short of an EPIRB).

sailors i think have to treat their boats as more than just
transportation or a house, more than a vehicle, and have to know a lot
more about it. the connection between a sailor and his/her boat i
believe is a much more personal one, more intimate, and the survival of
both depends greatly on the essential quality of each. the boat has to
be strong, move well, stand up to a gale, and take care of her captain,
etc ... and the sailor has to be smart, resourceful, know the boat
well, and be industrious in giving the boat what she needs. it's like
a team effort, a much more personal relationship than simple ownership,
or car & driver type of relationship. her sails are your sails, her
engine your engine, her hull your way of keeping dry, etc, she's like a
set of clothing, or armor, or wings that you strap on your back, giving
you capabilities you don't possess without her. and there has to be a
level of trust there, confidence, that comes through really getting to
know her and how she acts, knowing her little tantrums and her flaws,
and knowing her strengths so you can rely on her, etc.

i think trusting a boat broker to pick out a boat isn't anything at all
like trusting a car dealer to find you a car ... it's a lot more like
trusting a matchmaker to find you a wife lol. and yeah ... they are
way too uncaring and sleazy to trust to find you a wife.. ahem, i
mean, boat lol.

In article M38Jf.8097$lG.4345@trndny01,
"Thomas Wentworth" wrote:

Lately, I have been in contact with a number of boat brokers. Is it just
me, but these people seem sleazy. They have a listing, they represent the
buyer [ and themselves ]. They stand to make money if a sale goes through
yet they don't seem to know much, nor do they want to do much. If you ask
them something about a boat, they say "get a survey". In most cases, they
have never been on the boat, not have they ever seen the boat.

Surveys are fine, but they can cost hundreds of dollars.

I don't know,,, maybe is me but I really think boat brokers are a dishonest
bunch.

What are your thoughts.

Jasper

Like everything else in life, it depends on the person.

I found a broker who found the boat I wanted, guided me through
acquisition process, helped me resolve problems after the boat was
delivered a good 330 miles from his shop, came sailing up here to help
me out and showed me tons about my boat.

Anyone who has dealt with Todd Williams of McMichaels in Mamaroneck, NY
knows that there are brokers who do not fit your definition.

Keep on looking.

harlan

--
To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?

I can't say for sure about all, but I can say for sure that the ones I
encountered, with a few exceptions, in my search, were all honest,
caring folks.

Now, that may be a product of my doing nearly all of the work
beforehand, and delivering a spreadsheet of the boats, geographically
oriented, that I wanted to see, to each broker.

However, most also wanted to know what my objectives and
limitations/parameters/specifications were, and did their best to
present boats they thought met my needs.

I can say categorically (there may well be others, of course) that the
best and most professional broker I met was Frank Gary, of Bristol
Yacht Sales in Annapolis. I met him as a result of working with the
single *worst* example of a broker I encountered, who dumped me on
Friday night, to fend for myself on the weekend, in a hotel, rather
than out looking at boats as he'd said he would, because they were on
the other side of the river. He's also the one who said, "If you don't
buy that boat, not only are you stupid but I have no further use for
you!" about a boat which was under contract (his) but not closing yet
due to some potential problems (offer-counter, still active).

So, in the same market, I found the two extremes. However, he's the
exception. Nearly any other broker I worked with was satisfactory;
many were exemplary.

Do an interview before choosing a broker. Use one who will be your
buyer's agent rather than the listing broker, as that one won't have a
vested interest in pushing one boat over another...

And, as others have said, do your own homework. Use the broker as a
convenience tool to get you on as many boats as possible...


L8R

Skip, working on the boat

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely
nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,
messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to
do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

Jasper

You have to understand that boat brokers run into a lot of "tire
kickers" and "dreamers". They don't want to waste their time on such
people. If, or when, they realize that your "for real", then they start
to get down to serious work. People that are seriously in the market
for a boat tend to already have it down to a few makes and models, age
and price range. At that point a broker knows you've been looking, your
not just killing time. He will then start to help you with your search.
You would be surprised at how many times they have a survey on hand,
but use what they have as a referance only, hire your own surveyor if
your serious about a boat you have been shown. Brokers make their money
by selling boats, yes, the more it sells for the more they make. But
I've seen them push sellers hard to make a sale, no sale, no money. By
the way, have you looked at "www.yachtworld.com"? It's a great place to
look at lots of boats without leaving home, and you can get a good idea
about prices as well.

Good Luck!

John

This was the best site I found when I was looking for a boat:

http://www.boats.com/listing/cache/advanced_search.jsp

Here's how the broker thing is supposed to work:

The broker, representing the seller tells you whatever they think is
in their best interests for you to know. If the keel is missing, it
isn't in their interests to take time for you to show up and discover
that. OTOH they are under no obligation to tell you that there is
core rot.

You make an offer based on the information provided and, if possible,
your initial look yourself.

You hire a surveyor. If you are smart, you'll pay to have one travel
from outside the area. The local guys get referrals and work by
making sales happen. Be there for the survey yourself. You'll learn
a lot more than from a report.

The cost of fixing anything not previously disclosed, clearly visible
in the pictures, or on your initial inspection is then deducted from
your offer. Each party then decides if they want to proceed. If not,
you get your deposit back. If the keel was missing in the photos or
on your first inspection, that would not be deducted from the offer
because you should have factored it in at the time you made it. If
the surveyor finds core rot that was not disclosed, that would be
deducted because it could only be discovered by the survey.

It is true that surveyors are just normal people and not psychics so
there will inevitably be lots wrong discovered after you own the boat.
That's just life.

Buy in the Great Lakes (or other fresh water) if you possibly can.
Not only is there and incredible difference all the way through a boat
that has not been heavily exposed to salt there are different broker
practices, at least in the Detroit area. Our boat came with a $2000
escrow to cover anything that could not be discovered by survey. Any
system thing that didn't work. Because we got such a low price to
begin with, I didn't hold their feet to the fire for the autopilot and
stereo that I didn't really care about but they ended up spending
nearly the whole amount on fuel system problems that we would have
been stuck with under typical arrangements here on the east coast
..
The fresh water factor even shows up in the woodwork. Salt gets
everywhere and the residue holds moisture. I've seen five year old
boats that were not as fresh and clean in out of the way corners as
our 1980.

--

Roger Long

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:04:41 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


The fresh water factor even shows up in the woodwork. Salt gets
everywhere and the residue holds moisture. I've seen five year old
boats that were not as fresh and clean in out of the way corners as
our 1980.

This is very true. My '73 sloop still has, amazingly, a "new
fibreglass smell" and even look in parts of the boat far from the
"action", such as the forepeak and in the second of two quarterberth
storage bins going down to the hull.

That's why even though I know I'll find more "ocean cruisers" in other
markets, there's enough of the aforementioned dreamers and builders on
the Great Lakes who never quite made it to provide a small but
realistic market for passagemaker-level boats.

I recently looked at a steel boat started here in '88 and finished in
'93 and that has never seen salt. The corrosion on all parts of the
hull I could see (and I saw at least 50% that wasn't tank tops) was
minimal and was of the type that could be dealt with via a piece of 60
grit and a babyjar of Tremclad and a one-inch-wide paintbrush.

I saw a beautifully made 1988 French steel boat that had been a
liveaboard in Mexico in 2004 that was a higher-performance design than
the above boat, but its frames and stringers were a mess. I would have
had to dissemble the interior and sandblast the lot and recoat and
refoam....no thanks.

A compromise is finding a finished hull of a proven design with a
missing or basic interior. Sometimes a home builder of reasonable
skill will make a great boat with top-end tankage, engine and rigging,
but the interior looks like a treehouse with park benches.

Such a boat will come heavily discounted, and it's no hardship to
chainsaw out the bits you don't want and pay a carpenter to rebuild
the interior to one's own specs. As I don't like from a safety and
stowage point of view most "ocean-capable" boats today, this may be
the way I go. Better the money I save getting a decent
hull/deck/systems with a barbaric interior goes to a custom cabin
build than buying an "acres of teak" boat that is nice to look at but
hard to live in.

Skip G. can probably back me up here, as a lot of his refit efforts
have gone into altering a stock interior to suit his needs and
requirements.

It is hard to find a broker interested in helping you source a
"well-built wreck" at any price. They are used to selling conventional
boats to conventional customers, hence the large number of Hunters,
Catalinas and Beneteaus in the world.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. G

R.

I've talk to 10-15 brokers when looking for my boat, I didn't have any
of these problems, I was able to eliminate the bad ones either by
looking at their listing or by talking to them on the phone:
1. If price is way too high, don't bother.
2. If the broker doesn't return your phone calls or emails, don't
bother
3. If the brokerage has more than 6 salesmen, don't bother
4. If you've done your research, and you should have, and realize the
broker doesn't really know the boat he is selling, don't bother.
5. Don't bring you checkbook on the 1st visit, then you won't be
tempted to buy before giving it some thought.
6. Don't look for boats in the spring, look at them in in Nov/Dec,
if they haven't sold for a season they are more likely to come down
in price.
I did have 1 broker (after to looking at the boat for an hour) tell me
get got a call with an full-price offer over the phone, I told him I
can't beat that and walked out. He is just doing his job, try to get
the max. $ for his client, don't take it personal, just turn around and
walk out.

tom wrote:
I've talk to 10-15 brokers when looking for my boat

Same here.

.... I didn't have any
of these problems, I was able to eliminate the bad ones either by
looking at their listing or by talking to them on the phone:
1. If price is way too high, don't bother.
2. If the broker doesn't return your phone calls or emails, don't
bother
3. If the brokerage has more than 6 salesmen, don't bother
4. If you've done your research, and you should have, and realize the
broker doesn't really know the boat he is selling, don't bother.

You can go too far on this one. Expecting a broker to know
all about every boat he might ever possibly sell is like
expecting the cashier to know all the technical specs about
every item in the store.

IF the broker can hold an intelligent discussion on
technical aspects of boats & boating in general, without
bull****ting, that's about as much as you can realistically
ask for.

5. Don't bring you checkbook on the 1st visit, then you won't be
tempted to buy before giving it some thought.
6. Don't look for boats in the spring, look at them in in Nov/Dec,
if they haven't sold for a season they are more likely to come down
in price.
I did have 1 broker (after to looking at the boat for an hour) tell me
get got a call with an full-price offer over the phone, I told him I
can't beat that and walked out. He is just doing his job, try to get
the max. $ for his client, don't take it personal, just turn around and
walk out.


Or just shurg and say, "I'll call you next week." He may be
just pulling a sales trick, or he may be telling the
truth... in either event, if the boat is worth negotiating
for, and you're not falling for a line, why just drop the
possibility?

There are a LOT of boats for sale out there, but the reality
is that there are few good ones. It is a labor intensive
process to find one & open negotiations, don't throw that
away because the salesman has an attack of bad breath.

Glen's post on the 3 cardinal rules of negotiating is also
very good.
1- *any* offer is better than no offer, so go ahead and make
one. It is the brokers business to present them to the
owner/seller.
2- No time pressure. Why are you in a hurry? It is much
better to get the right deal on the right boat than to spend
too much on the wrong boat. And in any negotiation
gamesmanship, the side that has a deadline has one more way
to lose.
3- Be able to walk away. If you start getting the idea that
you *must* have a boat, or even *must* have **THIS**, then
you need a shrink not a boat. Remember the fine line between
"hobby" and "unhealthy obsession."

And do your homework! You should know the general info on
the boat(s) you're interested, which ones are for sale &
asking how much, and maybe even ask around sailing clubs in
the area to get some history on a particular boat.

I could spend a lot of time reminiscing about how we came to
buy our boats, which have been great for us, but I've
already been typing too long. Coffee's cold!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King