Thomas (or is it Jasper as I see in your first post that started this
thread),

Buying even a modest cruising boat and turning it into a safe,
reliable, and going concern is a complex and expensive process.
Certain personality traits have a lot of bearing on the outcome
because doing it successfully covers a wide range of sills. Many of
them are not technical. Dealing with the broker (who works only for
the seller and has a legal duty to represent only the seller's
interests), surveyors, boatyards, etc., productively involves
interpersonal skills and business sense that are often at odds with
the impulses that make people want to get far out in a small craft
away from society. There is a lot that can go wrong so patience and
reasonableness are vital.

I'm always very interested in the human factors. What small insight I've
gained from your posts makes me absolutely fascinated to see if you
ever actually get a boat and start cruising in it. I hope you will
continue to keep us informed of your progress and post some pictures
somewhere when you close the sale.


--

Roger Long

I can't say for sure about all, but I can say for sure that the ones I
encountered, with a few exceptions, in my search, were all honest,
caring folks.

Now, that may be a product of my doing nearly all of the work
beforehand, and delivering a spreadsheet of the boats, geographically
oriented, that I wanted to see, to each broker.

However, most also wanted to know what my objectives and
limitations/parameters/specifications were, and did their best to
present boats they thought met my needs.

I can say categorically (there may well be others, of course) that the
best and most professional broker I met was Frank Gary, of Bristol
Yacht Sales in Annapolis. I met him as a result of working with the
single *worst* example of a broker I encountered, who dumped me on
Friday night, to fend for myself on the weekend, in a hotel, rather
than out looking at boats as he'd said he would, because they were on
the other side of the river. He's also the one who said, "If you don't
buy that boat, not only are you stupid but I have no further use for
you!" about a boat which was under contract (his) but not closing yet
due to some potential problems (offer-counter, still active).

So, in the same market, I found the two extremes. However, he's the
exception. Nearly any other broker I worked with was satisfactory;
many were exemplary.

Do an interview before choosing a broker. Use one who will be your
buyer's agent rather than the listing broker, as that one won't have a
vested interest in pushing one boat over another...

And, as others have said, do your own homework. Use the broker as a
convenience tool to get you on as many boats as possible...


L8R

Skip, working on the boat

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely
nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing,
messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to
do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

Roger,,, before I jump at the first boat, I will look at as many boats as
possible. Remember, it is winter up here in the great white north.
Looking at boats that are covered with shrink wrap is not so easy. Also,
while I know what I want there are numerous versions of that style boat.
And one more thing ... it is fun looking at boats. I have learned so much
in just the short time I have lurked here. The internet is a University of
Marine Education. Thanks to all the posters, who post about just about
everything and anything, I am a much more informed buyer. A smart buyer is
not an impulsive buyer.

ps.. have you been to the Titanic memorial in New York City. I stumbled
upon it one day. I believe it is on the east side of Manhattan.

[[[[

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Thomas (or is it Jasper as I see in your first post that started this
thread),

Buying even a modest cruising boat and turning it into a safe, reliable,
and going concern is a complex and expensive process. Certain personality
traits have a lot of bearing on the outcome because doing it successfully
covers a wide range of sills. Many of them are not technical. Dealing with
the broker (who works only for the seller and has a legal duty to
represent only the seller's interests), surveyors, boatyards, etc.,
productively involves interpersonal skills and business sense that are
often at odds with the impulses that make people want to get far out in a
small craft away from society. There is a lot that can go wrong so
patience and reasonableness are vital.

I'm always very interested in the human factors. What small insight I've
gained from your posts makes me absolutely fascinated to see if you ever
actually get a boat and start cruising in it. I hope you will continue to
keep us informed of your progress and post some pictures somewhere when
you close the sale.


--

Roger Long

Jasper

You have to understand that boat brokers run into a lot of "tire
kickers" and "dreamers". They don't want to waste their time on such
people. If, or when, they realize that your "for real", then they start
to get down to serious work. People that are seriously in the market
for a boat tend to already have it down to a few makes and models, age
and price range. At that point a broker knows you've been looking, your
not just killing time. He will then start to help you with your search.
You would be surprised at how many times they have a survey on hand,
but use what they have as a referance only, hire your own surveyor if
your serious about a boat you have been shown. Brokers make their money
by selling boats, yes, the more it sells for the more they make. But
I've seen them push sellers hard to make a sale, no sale, no money. By
the way, have you looked at "www.yachtworld.com"? It's a great place to
look at lots of boats without leaving home, and you can get a good idea
about prices as well.

Good Luck!

John

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Roger,,, before I jump at the first boat, I will look at as many boats as
possible. Remember, it is winter up here in the great white north.
Looking at boats that are covered with shrink wrap is not so easy. Also,
while I know what I want there are numerous versions of that style boat.
And one more thing ... it is fun looking at boats. I have learned so much
in just the short time I have lurked here. The internet is a University of
Marine Education. Thanks to all the posters, who post about just about
everything and anything, I am a much more informed buyer. A smart buyer is
not an impulsive buyer.

ps.. have you been to the Titanic memorial in New York City. I stumbled
upon it one day. I believe it is on the east side of Manhattan.



Better yet....
has Roger been to *all* the Titanic sites, displays gravesites etc. in
Halifax?
http://titanic.gov.ns.ca/hfxdisplays.html

"Don White" wrote Better yet....
has Roger been to *all* the Titanic sites, displays gravesites etc.
in Halifax?
http://titanic.gov.ns.ca/hfxdisplays.html

No. I'm not one of the "Titaniacs". I was hired to see what a
professional taking a fresh look without the preconceptions and
positions of many who have studied the wreck for years would make of
the expedition's findings. I've been to bow, stern, and farther south
to the limits of the debris field than any but a handful of people.

I haven't been to any other Titanic sites.

--

Roger Long

This was the best site I found when I was looking for a boat:

http://www.boats.com/listing/cache/advanced_search.jsp

Here's how the broker thing is supposed to work:

The broker, representing the seller tells you whatever they think is
in their best interests for you to know. If the keel is missing, it
isn't in their interests to take time for you to show up and discover
that. OTOH they are under no obligation to tell you that there is
core rot.

You make an offer based on the information provided and, if possible,
your initial look yourself.

You hire a surveyor. If you are smart, you'll pay to have one travel
from outside the area. The local guys get referrals and work by
making sales happen. Be there for the survey yourself. You'll learn
a lot more than from a report.

The cost of fixing anything not previously disclosed, clearly visible
in the pictures, or on your initial inspection is then deducted from
your offer. Each party then decides if they want to proceed. If not,
you get your deposit back. If the keel was missing in the photos or
on your first inspection, that would not be deducted from the offer
because you should have factored it in at the time you made it. If
the surveyor finds core rot that was not disclosed, that would be
deducted because it could only be discovered by the survey.

It is true that surveyors are just normal people and not psychics so
there will inevitably be lots wrong discovered after you own the boat.
That's just life.

Buy in the Great Lakes (or other fresh water) if you possibly can.
Not only is there and incredible difference all the way through a boat
that has not been heavily exposed to salt there are different broker
practices, at least in the Detroit area. Our boat came with a $2000
escrow to cover anything that could not be discovered by survey. Any
system thing that didn't work. Because we got such a low price to
begin with, I didn't hold their feet to the fire for the autopilot and
stereo that I didn't really care about but they ended up spending
nearly the whole amount on fuel system problems that we would have
been stuck with under typical arrangements here on the east coast
..
The fresh water factor even shows up in the woodwork. Salt gets
everywhere and the residue holds moisture. I've seen five year old
boats that were not as fresh and clean in out of the way corners as
our 1980.

--

Roger Long

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:04:41 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


The fresh water factor even shows up in the woodwork. Salt gets
everywhere and the residue holds moisture. I've seen five year old
boats that were not as fresh and clean in out of the way corners as
our 1980.

This is very true. My '73 sloop still has, amazingly, a "new
fibreglass smell" and even look in parts of the boat far from the
"action", such as the forepeak and in the second of two quarterberth
storage bins going down to the hull.

That's why even though I know I'll find more "ocean cruisers" in other
markets, there's enough of the aforementioned dreamers and builders on
the Great Lakes who never quite made it to provide a small but
realistic market for passagemaker-level boats.

I recently looked at a steel boat started here in '88 and finished in
'93 and that has never seen salt. The corrosion on all parts of the
hull I could see (and I saw at least 50% that wasn't tank tops) was
minimal and was of the type that could be dealt with via a piece of 60
grit and a babyjar of Tremclad and a one-inch-wide paintbrush.

I saw a beautifully made 1988 French steel boat that had been a
liveaboard in Mexico in 2004 that was a higher-performance design than
the above boat, but its frames and stringers were a mess. I would have
had to dissemble the interior and sandblast the lot and recoat and
refoam....no thanks.

A compromise is finding a finished hull of a proven design with a
missing or basic interior. Sometimes a home builder of reasonable
skill will make a great boat with top-end tankage, engine and rigging,
but the interior looks like a treehouse with park benches.

Such a boat will come heavily discounted, and it's no hardship to
chainsaw out the bits you don't want and pay a carpenter to rebuild
the interior to one's own specs. As I don't like from a safety and
stowage point of view most "ocean-capable" boats today, this may be
the way I go. Better the money I save getting a decent
hull/deck/systems with a barbaric interior goes to a custom cabin
build than buying an "acres of teak" boat that is nice to look at but
hard to live in.

Skip G. can probably back me up here, as a lot of his refit efforts
have gone into altering a stock interior to suit his needs and
requirements.

It is hard to find a broker interested in helping you source a
"well-built wreck" at any price. They are used to selling conventional
boats to conventional customers, hence the large number of Hunters,
Catalinas and Beneteaus in the world.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. G

R.

"Danny" wrote in news:11va7iuktie0893
@corp.supernews.com:

Larry: Are you a lawyer or broker?



Screwed buyer. I successfully returned a 1997 Yamaha GP1200 PWC that was
a design mistake they told me they'd never take back. They were wrong...
(c; They called it "buyer's remorse".

I hired a lawyer....and learned a LOT in the process....

Every CONSUMER needs to read the FTC manual for the Businesspersons...
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...s/warranty.htm
and hold their sorry asses to the fire it produces. You don't need to
lean on some local lemon law that's just for cars. Magnusson-Moss
Warranty Protection Act (15USC50 section 2300) is quite specific and,
even though dealer/manufacturer amnesia is a problem, easily to
understand. I faxed the law and the manual to MY dealer at midnight just
to make sure HE had a copy...(c;

My favorite passage is 2304(a)(4):

"(4) if the product (or a component part thereof) contains a defect or
malfunction after a reasonable number of attempts by the warrantor to
remedy defects or malfunctions in such product, such warrantor must
permit the CONSUMER to elect either a refund for, or replacement
without charge of, such product or part (as the case may be). The
Commission may by rule specify for purposes of this paragraph, what
constitutes a reasonable number of attempts to remedy particular kinds of
defects or malfunctions under different circumstances. If the warrantor
replaces a component part of a consumer product, such replacement shall
include installing the part in the product without charge."

I've capslocked the most important word in the whole law....CONSUMER
....It doesn't say DEALER...or MANUFACTURER...or SERVICE MANAGER...or
TELEPHONE TAG EXPERT. It's up to the CONSUMER...US NOT "THEM"...to say
it's fixed or not and whether WE, not them, are to get a NEW ONE or a
full REFUND, which is what I chose.

Notice it doesn't say TRADE UP OUR CRAPWARE TO GET MORE OUT OF YOU or GET
A DISCOUNT COUPON? It says NEW UNIT or REFUND! Tested over and over in
court, the judges have settled on 30 days or 3 attempts to fix it....NOT
ALL SUMMER. It also DOESN'T say they can just ignore you because they
don't like you coming around the dealership bitching about it being crap.

(It doesn't say how far you need to be from the dealer, but the judges
have settled that on 2.5 miles. Luckily, I was a mile from mine...(c

It's why Wally World cheerfully refunds your money when the zipper falls
out of the pants or the toaster stops toasting....Wally is not your
friend. Wally is trying to put the BEST face on following the LAW! It
seems to work. The armored car hauls off Wally's money SIX times a day
where I live! It takes two guards to carry all the bags of it.

Why can't boat companies learn from Wally??
Ever seen an armored car at a boat dealer? broker? No....

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:29:27 GMT, in message

"Roger Long" wrote:

I'm always very interested in the human factors. What small insight I've
gained from your posts makes me absolutely fascinated to see if you
ever actually get a boat and start cruising in it. I hope you will
continue to keep us informed of your progress and post some pictures
somewhere when you close the sale.

I too am interested to see where others get into personal difficulties
in buying boats. My own experience is limited (three cruising boats,
one private, one brokered, one via eBay) but entirely positive. The
only time I felt a little screwed over was a private sale that fell
through because, after we agreed on a price, the owner wouldn't commit
to closing until he made a deal on his next boat.

I'm not very good at the bargaining process face to face, so I would
rather work through a broker for comfort, but a private deal can work
out better financially -- certainly did for my current boat.

Ryk