What Size ????????
 

Hi, Larry,
I tried to answer your wonderful story by email, but it bounced. If you're
willing to share your email address, I'll try again--and the message has
another shot of Annie, the tug.

Best,

Dick Behan


"Larry" wrote in message
...
"R.W. Behan" wrote in news:Ju2dnX_gPboCrSreRVn-
:

http://www.maplebay.com/page100.htm

Love the blue trim.

There has just got to be some way of making a tug whistle blow on these
tugs. A horn just isn't right. Maybe and air compressor pumping into a
tank off the engine would do it. They need a proper whistle..(c;

Everytime I see a tug, I think back to the 60's when I was a young sailor
on a destroyer tender. We were stern-to a quay out in Naples, IT, harbor
and every couple of days these two Italians came by in their 1920-
something diesel tug to bring us a new garbage barge and haul off the
full one.

The tug was spotless. What pride they took in that boat. There were
only two aboard, the captain and the engineer, who had to be in the
engine room to run the old, I-have-no-idea-whos, diesel. Wide open
hauling the barge away it must have turned up 120 RPM! It idled at
barely turning, probably 20 RPM, with a beautiful rhythmic
thump...thump...thump. Looking in the engine room hatch, right behind
the pilot house, you could watch the external pushrods of the OHV engine
going up and down. Each had several oiling felts and I observed our
engineer pumping oil into them from his oil can at times. The throttle
wasn't in the wheelhouse, it was on the side of the injector rack on top
of the engine. What looked like a direct-drive oldham coupler with a
very long, highly polished brass handle selected F-N-A behind the engine.
Watching them bring the barge alongside with both men manipulating the
single screw hiptowing the large barge was just a beautiful ballet.
Then, they'd untie from the fresh and tie up to the full one. The
captain would reach in and give the big wheel a spin, going back outside
to line handle. The engineer shoved her in forward and give her ahead
standard throttle. He then left the engine room for the wheelhouse just
in time to go rudder amidships, without the captain ever looking over his
shoulder. I don't think they ever spoke a word during the entire
operation.

Off they went, headed back to the salvage yard to see if we'd left them
any government presents on the barge.....

Thump...thump...thump...thump out of sight....(c;

Every part on that engine you could see seemed to be hand painted a
different color. I remember pushrods being red, rocker arms green, block
was grey. Every copper injector pipe was polished. It looked ancient
but like it had been built yesterday, a floating museum piece...still
working.

They had a whistle...(c;

What Size ????????
 

"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 17:09:23 -0500, Larry wrote:

///
Everytime I see a tug, I think back to the 60's when I was a young sailor
on a destroyer tender. We were stern-to a quay out in Naples, IT, harbor
and every couple of days these two Italians came by in their 1920-
something diesel tug to bring us a new garbage barge and haul off the
full one.

The tug was spotless. What pride they took in that boat. There were
only two aboard, the captain and the engineer, who had to be in the
engine room to run the old, I-have-no-idea-whos, diesel. Wide open
hauling the barge away it must have turned up 120 RPM! It idled at
barely turning, probably 20 RPM, with a beautiful rhythmic
thump...thump...thump.
///
single screw hiptowing the large barge was just a beautiful ballet.
Then, they'd untie from the fresh and tie up to the full one. The
captain would reach in and give the big wheel a spin, going back outside
to line handle. The engineer shoved her in forward and give her ahead
standard throttle. He then left the engine room for the wheelhouse just
in time to go rudder amidships, without the captain ever looking over his
shoulder. I don't think they ever spoke a word during the entire
operation.

Off they went, headed back to the salvage yard to see if we'd left them
any government presents on the barge.....

Thump...thump...thump...thump out of sight....(c;

///

What an evocative note ...beautifully written

Brian Whatcott Altus OK


Yes, wasn't it, though?

Dick B.

What Size ????????
 

Looking at your drawings and specs for the barque, the size, rigging,
and hull configuration of the Elissa seem very close to your design.
At the time, I could name and explain all the lines (90 or so) involved
in the running rigging.

As understood, because of its long service life, the Elissa travelled
more total nms than any ship still in use at the time it was taken out
of service. It's one of the very few 19th century tall ships still
sailing on a regular basis.

Jim



Roger Long wrote:

I know the Elissa well. The next tall ship on my site, the full
rigged one, was being designed for an organization headed by the
fellow who was director of the Elissa restoration project. He made
that one happen but just couldn't get the new ship project off the
ground.

What Size ????????
 

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:14:55 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

The biggest change, as you have said and I have agreed in backhand,
would be achieved by an increase in stability.

=======================

Racing boats do this all the time by loading up the rail with crew,
and it is very effective. There is a rule of thumb which states that
a pound of weight on the rail is worth two pounds in the keel.
Depends on the boat of course, but crew weight acts on stability
immediately, whereas ballast weight has to be heeled at some angle
first.

That said, flattening the mainsail by any means possible, and pulling
the draft further forward is also very effective at reducing weather
helm.

What Size ????????
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:14:55 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


The biggest change, as you have said and I have agreed in backhand,
would be achieved by an increase in stability.


=======================

Racing boats do this all the time by loading up the rail with crew,
and it is very effective. There is a rule of thumb which states that
a pound of weight on the rail is worth two pounds in the keel.
Depends on the boat of course, but crew weight acts on stability
immediately, whereas ballast weight has to be heeled at some angle
first.

That said, flattening the mainsail by any means possible, and pulling
the draft further forward is also very effective at reducing weather
helm.

Careful. The chap you are preaching to is the Chaplain. Google Roger
Long before you get to far into this. I should have.

Gaz

What Size ????????
 

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 05:03:00 GMT, Gary wrote:

Careful. The chap you are preaching to is the Chaplain. Google Roger
Long before you get to far into this. I should have.
===========================================

I'm aware that Roger is an experienced marine architect but that does
not necessarily make him a sailing expert. I have spent literally
thousands of hours racing keel boats (with some success), so I'm
fairly comfortable discussing what has worked for me. I think we all
agree that reducing heel angle will help to reduce weather helm but
there are various ways of doing that.

What Size ????????
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:RPfuf.9447$tl.5429@pd7tw3no...
Roger Long wrote:
The discussion is over. John and I have agreed on the point.
Sorry.


John who?

Sorry Roger.

Roger and I.

Well, my point was (though perhaps ill made), that you quoted from
a bad text book. So I'm glad you agreed on this, though I missed
that bit of the conversation!

JimB

What Size ????????
 

Wayne.B wrote:

I think we all
agree that reducing heel angle will help to reduce weather helm but
there are various ways of doing that.

I had a lesson once on how much immersed asymmetrical hull
form has to do with it; too much when heeled and there will
be a rounding up force that must be corrected by the rudder.
I took the helm of a cruising folkboat for the first time as
we were clearing the Firth of Forth on the east coast of
Scotland. As we cleared the shelter of the firth a strong NE
wind caused her to bury her rail but I was amazed that the
tiller remained light, responsive and only a tad off central
- a beautifully balanced yacht at any angle of heel.
BrianH.

What Size ????????
 

If you do the silly yacht designer's thing of cutting out the hull
profile and balancing it on a pin you will find that the lead of the
Folkboat isn't much different that vessels with lots of weather helm.
What started this whole sub thread was my not to clearly stated
assertion that it is not fine tuning of the C.E. / C.L.P relationship
that determines helm balance but lots of other factors.

--

Roger Long



"BrianH" wrote in message
...
Wayne.B wrote:

I think we all
agree that reducing heel angle will help to reduce weather helm but
there are various ways of doing that.

I had a lesson once on how much immersed asymmetrical hull form has
to do with it; too much when heeled and there will be a rounding up
force that must be corrected by the rudder. I took the helm of a
cruising folkboat for the first time as we were clearing the Firth
of Forth on the east coast of Scotland. As we cleared the shelter of
the firth a strong NE wind caused her to bury her rail but I was
amazed that the tiller remained light, responsive and only a tad off
central - a beautifully balanced yacht at any angle of heel.
BrianH.

What Size ????????
 

I may not be a sailing expert (although I have fooled the British
Government, most of the sail training organizations in the U.S., and
the U.S. Coast Guard into thinking so) but I was very intrigued by the
balance issue in my early years.

The centerboard and rudder comprise just about the whole lateral plane
on a dinghy. If you remove the centerboard from a dinghy with a
hinged board and put in a temporary dagger boat, you can make huge
adjustments in the location of the lateral plane. If you study the
effect on rudder angle under controlled conditions you can learn some
very interesting things.

The racing adjustments you are talking about certainly are real and do
work. The difference is one of perspective. When attempting to eke
out very small increments of performance these small reductions in
rudder angle and helm force are significant. You may even see
yourself picking up enough speed, maybe .03%, to close the angle on
the boat next to you. It's sort of like a lot of sail trim
adjustments. Pulling the Cunningham will speed up a racing boat under
some circumstances but it will not convert a "slow" cruising boat into
a "fast" one.

These small changes observed while racing are not the same thing
though as the differences between boats that are considered to have
weather helm over a broad range of conditions and ones that are
considered well balanced. You are also not changing the crude
geometric C.E. / C.L.P. relationships very much but other critical
aerodynamic aspects of the sail plan that are not considered in the
paper on a pin approach.

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 05:03:00 GMT, Gary
wrote:

Careful. The chap you are preaching to is the Chaplain. Google
Roger
Long before you get to far into this. I should have.
===========================================

I'm aware that Roger is an experienced marine architect but that
does
not necessarily make him a sailing expert. I have spent literally
thousands of hours racing keel boats (with some success), so I'm
fairly comfortable discussing what has worked for me. I think we
all
agree that reducing heel angle will help to reduce weather helm but
there are various ways of doing that.