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What Size ????????
After a number of years away from sailing and cruising, I am starting to get
back ... little by little. Using my past boat ownership experience, three full keel boats. Two were ok, one was a DOG. I am looking at different boats on the net. There sure are a lot of boats for sale. My criteria: well built ( I don't care how old, just well built ), ocean worthy, either no engine or a diesel engine [ please don't tell me that a 35 year old Atomic 4 is fine, all you need to do it keep them maintained ], a conservative design [ I plan on cruising not racing ], and big enough to sail anywhere but small enough to sail alone. That is the question; what size? I want to have my family out with me but if they are busy or don't care to go or if I take off for an extended trip ........... what size sailboat [ I shudder at the term yacht ] would be just about right for a single hander? Here are a few of the boats I have looked at over the last few days. A Pearson 35 [ built late 60's and one built early 70's ], and Albin Ballad [ built 1976, Sweden? .. 29'something "'s .. not that heavy .. has fin keel ...spade rudder ?? ... ], and a whole bunch of boats like this. What do you experts think... if you aren't an expert and have an opinion... that is even better. |
What Size ????????
After a summer sailing the Endeavor 32 we bought last year, I would
start looking for another one tomorrow if anything happened to it. This is from the perspective of a boat designer and a quarter century of sailing on a wide variety of boats between 7 and 380 feet. It's primarily a good choice if your budget is limited. We got a very clean 1980 boat for $15,000 and put about half of that again into upgrades. For that, we got a boat with full headroom, six berths (at least for an overnight), open and very woody interior, carries a few more than it sleeps comfortably on daysails. We got good sails and a great diesel engine. It's still small enough for easy singlehanding and managing alone in a tight marina berth. This is a very middle of the road boat that doesn't stand out in any particular area but does just about everything you need in cruising very well. It isn't fast but it isn't slow either. We often sail past faster boats if they aren't paying close attention to sail trim. I always feel like we are making good progress on cruising legs. It is a shoal draft, wide headsail sheeting base, vessel so windward isn't her best point of sail but beating performance is still way ahead of traditional vessels and she makes solid progress. What really endears her to me is the handling. The turning radius is tight and response quick which makes marinas and tight docking situations easier. Unlike most boats I've sailed with this kind of helm response, she can be overpowered and driven down hard in a tight spot without ever threatening to take charge. There is plenty of helm force but, when you overcome it, she does what you need her to do. I'd like slower helm response if we did more long cruising but she is just right for fun daysailing and shorter trips. A good autopilot would provide the best of both worlds. This is not a true blue water boat although they have sailed at least half way around the world that I know of. They were designed for island hopping in the Caribbean and have an excellent hot weather interior with all opening ports. With new ports and some beefing up of cockpit and other openings, they should be capable of going farther than most people would want to go. The detail work is a bit rough in spots, you can see that a lot of ganja got smoked during the construction but a three quarter inch solid glass hull makes up for a lot of sins. The decks are stiffened with plywood glassed under the main lay-up so there is no coring anywhere to worry about. If I suddenly had $50,000 to spend on a boat at this point, I would still look for one of these for about 20 and then have it stripped and redone soup to nuts. It's a great hull with the comfort and easy motion of a traditional boat but the responsive handling of a modern one. If I had $150,000 for a boat and were designing one for custom construction, it would still look a lot like our E32. Look for a 1980 - 1982 for the best features. You can see the story of our boat at: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/RWL.htm -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:04:55 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: Look for a 1980 - 1982 for the best features. You can see the story of our boat at: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/RWL.htm ======================================== Good looking boat Roger, and nice documentation of the purchase and refurbishment process. It's amazing how all those little things add up isn't it? The good new is that you are probably now close to new boat condition and for a whole lot less money than that. |
What Size ????????
Yes, at least in the areas I've been able to uncover. The decks are
primarily solid glass and the plywood panels have space all the way around. It would be still be a mess to tear out and replace one but nothing like dealing with a rotted core. There is less glass over them and good access to the edges. Not the most weight efficient construction but these boats will probably be around for a long time as a result. -- Roger Long "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:04:55 GMT, "Roger Long" said: The decks are stiffened with plywood glassed under the main lay-up so there is no coring anywhere to worry about. Could you clarify that? Do you mean that there is fiberglass deck above the plywood, but no glass below it so that the plywood is accessible from the cabin without having to remove any FG? |
What Size ????????
"Roger Long" wrote in news:wWgtf.47100$XJ5.4425
@twister.nyroc.rr.com: Yes, at least in the areas I've been able to uncover. The decks are primarily solid glass and the plywood panels have space all the way around. It would be still be a mess to tear out and replace one but nothing like dealing with a rotted core. There is less glass over them and good access to the edges. Not the most weight efficient construction but these boats will probably be around for a long time as a result. -- Roger Long Roger, does the 32 leak around the chainplates and toe rails down the bulkheads, ruining the wood prettys inside? The '82 Endeavour 35, A- Plan, had a lot of leaks around there we had an awful time with on Claire's Navie, which belonged to a friend of mine. I sailed her from NC to Key West and it was, too, a great boat. I'll be sailing on her, probably, on Sunday with her new owner, another friend. She's called "Stray Dog" now... There's just so much ROOM in the 35 without the table in the middle to walk by. Very nicely appointed, too.... |
What Size ????????
Our boat sat for six years with the mast up and a shrink wrap job that
didn't keep water off the deck so the chainplates did leak and a three of interior panels rotted. One replaced, one to go. They come out easily and replacement is very easy. I re-bedded the chainplates and they have been tight. There was some arrested just in time discoloration of the cabin trunk liner around the ports. This would be a real bear to replace so I'm glad the former owner got it fixed. I'm still trying to trace a small leak over the quarter berth but I'm pretty sure it's coming in around the companionway frame. No rot or problems that would be hard to deal with. The interior is also installed in way such that most deck edge leaks will go to the bilge instead of down the woodwork. I don't see any evidence of them on this hull though. More room is always nicer inside but smaller is always easier when you're horsing a boat around a tight dock alone, singlehanding, or paying the bills. If you are looking for lowest cost and easiest handling, 32 feet is kind of a magic size. It's the smallest that you can get full headroom without having a bulky looking boat with a lot of windage or a deep and very heavy hull. It's the smallest that six overnight bunks will fit and still have a decent head and galley. It's the smallest that is tolerable for four over a period of days. It's the smallest in which most couples would want to live aboard and cruise extensively. If our budget had been larger, I would have looked at 35 footers but we were already stretching up from the 27 - 28 foot range. Prices take a jump out of proportion to other things above 32 feet. If I suddenly had $40,000 to spend on a boat at this point, I would put it into this one instead of trying to trade up to something larger. We would then have a boat in which everything was right instead of just a larger and roomier collection of problems and projects. -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
Larry,
I just looked up the 35 on the owner's association web site: http://www.endeavourowners.com/boats.html Nice looking boat. It's wider and shallower than the 32, a more modern design and I'm sure faster for it's length. I don't expect that it would have the control authority and motion characteristics that make me love the 32 so much but I'm sure it's a boat I would like for other reasons. I see that there is a lot of PVC foam used in the construction. A number of people have asked if I've had trouble with the foam in my boat. Since there is none, this may be something the larger and later Endeavors have a problem with. There is also a 33 but it doesn't do anything for me. The 33's and 35's go for similar prices. I just looked and, figuring you pay 75 percent of list, the extra 1 - 3 feet of length (I know it's a lot more increased volume than that indicates) will cost about twice as much as we paid. I'm pretty damn happy with what I've got. -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
"Roger Long" wrote in news:mwktf.47122$XJ5.26410
@twister.nyroc.rr.com: No rot or problems that would be hard to deal with. The interior is also installed in way such that most deck edge leaks will go to the bilge instead of down the woodwork. I don't see any evidence of them on this hull though. Yeah, this one did leak down to the bilge, but it was constantly wet behind those wooden panels and it finally made it through them showing what was going on, hidden from view, behind them. Some kind of stress on the toe rails kept separating them enough to start the leaking, again. The new owner finally got the bilge to stay dry, but the boat hasn't been out in the Atlantic since so hasn't been knocked around by the waves, yet. Thanks for the info. 32 is a very nice size. I'm crew on an Amel Sharki 41 (er, ah, 39 if the dockmaster's watching..(c;). It's a beautifully- made, slug-slow ketch. New sails and lots of tuning hasn't fixed her very experienced captain's awful weather helm I'm usually fighting to keep her pointed up. The big B&G autopilot just loses control it's so bad in heavy winds. The Endeavour 35 had more "space", or the feeling of more space. The Amel is a far better blue water boat with that very deep center cockpit with hardtop cover. The owner has just installed new Lexan windscreens to replaced the starred plexiglass. I can almost see where she's going, now! Well, we'll sail her on New Year's Day. Weather is forecast to be fine. |
What Size ????????
"Roger Long" wrote in news:K_ktf.56946$XC4.39049
@twister.nyroc.rr.com: I'm sure faster for it's length. I don't expect that it would have the control authority and motion characteristics that make me love the 32 so much but I'm sure it's a boat I would like for other reasons. I see that there is a lot of PVC foam used in the construction. A number of people have asked if I've had trouble with the foam in my boat. Since there is none, this may be something the larger and later Endeavors have a problem with. Naw...she's not fast. Weighs too much to be fast. The Amel is even heavier and slower... The Catalinas walk right by both of them. But, heavier is much more comfortable in the slop. It's a trade. It would probably help if my captain didn't just HAVE to have every tool a shipyard would have and two of every part the boat could ever need. I think there's a spare Perkins 4-108, in tiny bits, stored under the aft cabin berths....(c; We don't need an anchor on the Amel. We just heave over half a ton of chain out of the chain locker forward of the forward watertight bulkhead. |
What Size ????????
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:53:03 -0500, Larry wrote:
New sails and lots of tuning hasn't fixed her very experienced captain's awful weather helm I'm usually fighting to keep her pointed up. ====================== This may be old news but here are some possible cures for weather helm: Flatter sails - more outhaul, backstay, cunningham and halyard tension, a bit of mast bend if do able, jib leads further aft. Get a flattening reef installed in the mainsail. Reduce sail area and heeling. Move weight out of the stern to further forward. Decrease mast rake if any. |
What Size ????????
Helmsmanship often has a lot to do with it. Weather helm is very heel
related. Watch closely and you'll see that rudder angle increases with heel angle. At some point, the helmsman, rudder, or autopilot are overpowered. Holding grimly to a course or keeping a Windex pinned on the vane in the gusts as the boat heels way down will greatly exaggerate the weather helm. Gusts are usually from a slightly different direction and not recognizing this can also make the helm feel like it's fighting back harder. In strong winds find the maximum comfortable angle and one where the boat feels like it is moving well and fix the angle of the mast against the horizon in your mind. Then, whenever that angle is exceeded, let the boat come up. It's somewhat rate based so, if you are heeling quickly towards that angle, you can start easing up a bit before your reach it. Sail for the constant heel angle and you won't be fighting the helm so much. The higher pointing will compensate for the boat being less powered. Often, the boat will even sail faster without the rudder dragging and the hull more upright. Keeping speed up makes a big difference in helm angle. If you let the boat get slow so you are constantly working to speed up again, the helm forces will be heavier. I watched the weather helm on our boat steadily increase towards the end of the summer as the bottom fouled. Same dynamics. Mental effort devoted to keeping the boat going at maximum speed will reduce the physical effort of working against the weather helm. Most boats going to windward will slow down to a higher speed than they will speed up to. (You may have to read that a couple of times.) Ease off a bit to let the boat get really moving and then start slowly pinching up. If you do it right, the boat will settle at the higher of the two potential speeds with lower helm force. The airflow over the sail will remain optimum for a short period at a higher angle than can be maintained for long. If you keep heading higher very slowly and gingerly, you can get an additional bit of course made good to windward with the sails pulling optimally. It usually will only be part of a minute but those periods of heading higher can really add up. In a short time, something will trigger the flow to collapse and some of the drive will go out of the rig. This will usually be felt rather than seen. In smooth water, you may see a little hitch of the mast towards upright. If you quickly head off, you can re-establish the flow before the boat slows down and then start heading up gingerly again. The clues when you are doing this successfully are very subtle. Jib tell tales are almost too crude. The proper course to windward is a slightly scalloped one that takes advantage of these dynamics. Some rudder angle is good. It pushes you to windward. Learning to sail dynamically and with finesse while beating will reduce the perceived as well as actual weather helm on almost any vessel. It takes concentration and understanding but will yield as good results as a lot of the sail recutting and rig tuning people do. It's a lot cheaper as well. -- Roger Long "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:53:03 -0500, Larry wrote: New sails and lots of tuning hasn't fixed her very experienced captain's awful weather helm I'm usually fighting to keep her pointed up. ====================== This may be old news but here are some possible cures for weather helm: Flatter sails - more outhaul, backstay, cunningham and halyard tension, a bit of mast bend if do able, jib leads further aft. Get a flattening reef installed in the mainsail. Reduce sail area and heeling. Move weight out of the stern to further forward. Decrease mast rake if any. |
What Size ????????
Tom--
You probably know all about Westsail 32's. Heavy, full keel, comfortable, and about as fast as the Budweiser Clydesdales. (Built like them, too.) I owned one for ten years, dreamed about offshore cruising, and learned too late I started dreaming too late. (North of septugenarian status now.) Having discovered, anyway, the difference between a dream and a fantasy, we sold the boat two years ago and bought a Lord Nelson Victory Tug. You can go cruising and still be indoors, and in our part of the country (Pacific NW) that doesn't mean you're a sissy....Had a wonderful 3-month cruise, 2500 miles, to Alaska and back this past summer. Anyhow, I'm still infatuated with the Westsail, and suggest you have a look--or another. Must say, though, Strider is a beauty. Here's the link to the broker who is selling our old Westsail for the chap who bought her from us. Cheers, fair winds, and blue skies to you. Dick Behan http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...neservicenter& "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:DMbtf.1$WX3.0@trndny09... After a number of years away from sailing and cruising, I am starting to get back ... little by little. Using my past boat ownership experience, three full keel boats. Two were ok, one was a DOG. I am looking at different boats on the net. There sure are a lot of boats for sale. My criteria: well built ( I don't care how old, just well built ), ocean worthy, either no engine or a diesel engine [ please don't tell me that a 35 year old Atomic 4 is fine, all you need to do it keep them maintained ], a conservative design [ I plan on cruising not racing ], and big enough to sail anywhere but small enough to sail alone. That is the question; what size? I want to have my family out with me but if they are busy or don't care to go or if I take off for an extended trip .......... what size sailboat [ I shudder at the term yacht ] would be just about right for a single hander? Here are a few of the boats I have looked at over the last few days. A Pearson 35 [ built late 60's and one built early 70's ], and Albin Ballad [ built 1976, Sweden? .. 29'something "'s .. not that heavy .. has fin keel ...spade rudder ?? ... ], and a whole bunch of boats like this. What do you experts think... if you aren't an expert and have an opinion... that is even better. |
What Size ????????
"Roger Long" wrote in news:Vzotf.47139$XJ5.41709
@twister.nyroc.rr.com: Helmsmanship often has a lot to do with it. In the Amel, I think design has a lot to do with it, too. The mainmast is 15 ft from the bow, way forward. The mizzen seems to be too small to compensate for the thrust forward of the vertical axis. It makes little difference whether the mizzen is furled or not. Speed changes little and weather helm changes little doing anything with the mizzen. moving the mast with the backstay jack doesn't change much, either. So, we just unpower it, lowering the heel as suggested. It isn't going to go over 8 knots, anyway... I saw almost 9 on it one time and commented to the cap'n she was gonna plane any minute...(c; |
What Size ????????
"R.W. Behan" wrote in
om: a Lord Nelson Victory Tug Now THERE's a beautiful boat. In SC, being cold isn't an issue. Victory Tug owners have two air conditioners...(c; |
What Size ????????
Balance of sailboats is a huge myth. The whole CP, CLR, Lead business
was just a way for yacht designers to look scientific. The fact that you can make huge area changes, such as the mizzen, without much helm angle change shows how silly the whole idea is. There are schooners with 10% negative lead and they sail fine. Mainsail shape is more of an issue as a tight leach is a huge trim tab. The primary source of weather helm is the fact that, while heeled, the drag of the hull is over here and the drive of the sails is way out there. To go to windward, the hull must make leeway which means there is sideways flow on the rudder. Unless it has way too much balance, it is going to have pressure on it. -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:53:03 -0500, Larry wrote: New sails and lots of tuning hasn't fixed her very experienced captain's awful weather helm I'm usually fighting to keep her pointed up. ====================== This may be old news but here are some possible cures for weather helm: Flatter sails - more outhaul, backstay, cunningham and halyard tension, a bit of mast bend if do able, jib leads further aft. Get a flattening reef installed in the mainsail. Reduce sail area and heeling. Move weight out of the stern to further forward. Decrease mast rake if any. I think the first job is to get the boat level. That is normally the cause. If the boat has weather helm when level then there is some thing wrong with the setup. Modern big ass boats get weather helm as they heel and nose down. Gaz |
What Size ????????
"Gary" wrote I think the first job is to get
the boat level. That is normally the cause. Maybe in a dinghy where you can shift the weight. In a keelboat, heel is directly proportional to power going to windward. No heel, no drive. At some point, the side effects of heel begin to slow the boat down. Finding the optimum angle, not just keeping the boat as flat as possible is the objective. Lot's of pressure on the helm is not necessarily bad as far as boat speed is concerned. That pressure is directly against leeway. Perfect helm balance might be nice for helmsman but may not produce the fastest boat to windward. I find lee helm in light air a real pain but it's usually the price of a very light helm when it breezes up. -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
Wow. this is dumb.
Roger Long wrote: Balance of sailboats is a huge myth. The whole CP, CLR, Lead business was just a way for yacht designers to look scientific. And the world is flat! The fact that you can make huge area changes, such as the mizzen, without much helm angle change shows how silly the whole idea is. There are schooners with 10% negative lead and they sail fine. I can't even sail my ketch to windward without the mizzen and I can't fall off the wind without headsails set. Same with my sloop, if I take down the main it won't point as high. There goes that theory! Mainsail shape is more of an issue as a tight leach is a huge trim tab. The entire main is a trim tab on a masthead sloop. On a ketch or yawl the mizzen is the trim tab. Mainsail shape and size is critical (which blows your previous comment away again. The primary source of weather helm is the fact that, while heeled, the drag of the hull is over here and the drive of the sails is way out there. That is correct score one point. To go to windward, the hull must make leeway Wrong. The idea is to minimize leeway. More leeway equals less distance to windward. which means there is sideways flow on the rudder. The flow is only sideways in a very poorly designed boat. Boats wants to go pointy end first. The flow across the rudder and keel have a slight angular component but that gives "lift" hydrodynamically. Unless it has way too much balance, it is going to have pressure on it. This had to be a troll........ |
What Size ????????
Roger Long wrote:
"Gary" wrote I think the first job is to get the boat level. That is normally the cause. Maybe in a dinghy where you can shift the weight. In a keelboat, heel is directly proportional to power going to windward. No heel, no drive. BS, that is why race boats out everyone on the windward rail......to flatten the boat. If it heels too much you get weather helm and spill wind. All the foils (above and below the waterline) get inefficient. Look at multihulls. At some point, the side effects of heel begin to slow the boat down. Finding the optimum angle, not just keeping the boat as flat as possible is the objective. The optimum angle is usually pretty close to flat. Lot's of pressure on the helm is not necessarily bad as far as boat speed is concerned. Of course it is. That pressure is directly against leeway. Perfect helm balance might be nice for helmsman but may not produce the fastest boat to windward. Wrong. Efficiency, by definition, is minimizing pressures that slow the boat (like leeway.) I find lee helm in light air a real pain but it's usually the price of a very light helm when it breezes up. |
What Size ????????
"Gary" wrote
Wow. this is dumb. Sorry. I shouldn't have shot my mouth off, even if this is a newsgroup. Since you seem to know what you are talking about, would you please help me understand some of this stuff better? First, a clarification: I didn't mean that you can't unbalance a sail plan to the point that the vessel becomes uncontrollable, just that most vessels tolerate much larger shifts than yacht designers obsess about when they are balancing paper cut outs of the underbody on a pin. Some vessels tolerate these shifts, which do create small differences in rudder angle and helm force, better than others. I'm sorry to hear about the handling problems with your ketch. Now my questions: Putting aside a few dinghies with jibing centerboards and some older racing boats with keel trim tabs, the angle of attack of the symmetrical foil that is keel or centerboard is exactly fixed by the hull's motion through the water. Anyone can look at a boat hull and figure out that it will go more easily through the water straight than with the flow at an angle. Minimizing leeway certainly is a key both to speed and making as high a course to windward as possible. You say: The flow across the rudder and keel have a slight angular component but that gives "lift" hydrodynamically. I would very much like to know where this angular component comes from because I've clearly been missing something all these years. I've been producing the angle of attack necessary to create the lift to that is the opposite force vector to the sails by letting the hull go through the water at a slight angle. Your way is clearly better because of the lower drag. Please tell me how to do it. In your other response, you said: The optimum (heel) angle is usually pretty close to flat. When I'm sailing my 32 foot boat alone, my weight does not effect heel noticeably. I scooch as far up on the coaming as I can and stretch lifelines out with my back but it doesn't seem to help much. On the 135 foot schooner I sailed to Bermuda on a couple of times, people were too busy with classes, sleeping off watch, and other things. The captain looked at me kind of funny when I asked if everyone could come out and sit on the rail for me. Most of the sailing I've done in boats big enough to sleep in has not provided the opportunity to shift any significant weight. The only way to reduce heel is to reef, ease sheets, or head up. I've always done this just enough to get the heel down to the angle that the boat seems to move fastest at. When I reduce the heel further, the boats I sail have always slowed down. Heading up too much in strong breezes before I got a little more helm time under my belt would sometimes result in their slowing down so much that loss of water flow over the rudder would lead to going out of control. Clearly, I've been missing something all these years. I suspect it is connected to my confusion about leeway. I'm sure that, after you explain how to create the side force at zero angle of attack, I'll be able to learn how to head up or reduce sail enough that there is almost no heel. The hull will then be in minimum drag configuration, symmetrical and going straight through the water, and the boat should just fly. I can't wait until next summer to try this out but first, you've got to tell me what I've been doing wrong. --Roger Long -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
In article DMbtf.1$WX3.0@trndny09,
"Thomas Wentworth" wrote: My criteria: well built ( I don't care how old, just well built ), ocean worthy, either no engine or a diesel engine [ please don't tell me that a 35 year old Atomic 4 is fine, all you need to do it keep them maintained ], a conservative design [ I plan on cruising not racing ], and big enough to sail anywhere but small enough to sail alone. That is the question; what size? I want to have my family out with me but if they are busy or don't care to go or if I take off for an extended trip .......... what size sailboat [ I shudder at the term yacht ] would be just about right for a single hander? Here are a few of the boats I have looked at over the last few days. A Pearson 35 [ built late 60's and one built early 70's ], and Albin Ballad [ built 1976, Sweden? .. 29'something "'s .. not that heavy .. has fin keel ...spade rudder ?? ... ], and a whole bunch of boats like this. Size is relative. We have friends in 35' boats that admire our 28's usable space, stowage and speed. Primary, for us, was that the "V" is larger that most primary cabins in boats shorter than about 40'. After a decade, we've come to enjoy her combination of comfort, stowage, speed, agility, simplicity and toughness. That we can give a second couple overnight privacy was an unexpected plus. I wouldn't hesitate to take her anywhere in the Caribbean or US east coast. But your requirements surely differ, as do your sailing and boat-handling skills. Some can single-hand 50' boats, others have trouble with 30 footers. Personally, I concentrate on accommodations and crew happiness first. If they won't step aboard, the trips won't be as fun. Because my wife was satisfied with what was important to her, she almost always accompanies me even though she wasn't a sailor when we met. I believe you're at a point where you should honestly evaluate all the possibilities and rank their relative importance. For instance, I love sailing fast, but recognize that the difference between fast and slow isn't that great amongst the vast number of boats, and an attentive skipper and appropriate sails will make more difference. Handling a bigger boat either requires more strength and agility, or reorganization, simplification and bigger winches, possibly with power assist. Then walk the docks and yards, actually trying the boats on for size. Just last night, we were with friends with a slightly redesigned version of our boat. Though they look pretty much identical by the numbers and pictures, their interior is enough different by bare inches that I don't think I'd want their boat. They were on both, and preferred theirs to ours. We're still friends ;-) -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
What Size ????????
"Gary" wrote Hydrodynamic lift illustration
As you can see in the attachment, the boat is sailing to windward on a close reach or close hauled. Notice how the boat does not sail perfectly straight, but rather at a slight angle (yaw)(angular component). That would be leeway, right? You've had your leg pulled:) http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boats.htm http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Titanic.htm http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Articles.htm http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
Roger Long wrote:
"Gary" wrote Hydrodynamic lift illustration As you can see in the attachment, the boat is sailing to windward on a close reach or close hauled. Notice how the boat does not sail perfectly straight, but rather at a slight angle (yaw)(angular component). That would be leeway, right? Once again, the goal being to minimize leeway and heel to gain maximum speed. You have conveniently snipped your initial statement that was the genesis of our discussion: "Balance of sailboats is a huge myth. The whole CP, CLR, Lead business was just a way for yacht designers to look scientific. The fact that you can make huge area changes, such as the mizzen, without much helm angle change shows how silly the whole idea is. There are schooners with 10% negative lead and they sail fine." I still call you on it! You've had yours pulled ;-) http://www.navy.gc.ca/oriole/crew/sh...mandteam_e.asp Of course your designs might not respond to huge sail area changes. They are not exactly leading edge technology, but I am a fan of classic boats. (I own a Bill Garden sloop) |
What Size ????????
Thanks, Larry--they are good lookin' boats, all right. It's the power boat
version of a Westsail sailboat. Big fat slow happy and comfortable. Here's the broker's picture that transfixed us--and we later bought this boat. Cheers, Dick Behan http://www.maplebay.com/page100.htm "Larry" wrote in message ... "R.W. Behan" wrote in om: a Lord Nelson Victory Tug Now THERE's a beautiful boat. In SC, being cold isn't an issue. Victory Tug owners have two air conditioners...(c; |
What Size ????????
"Gary" wrote in
You have conveniently snipped your initial statement that was the genesis of our discussion: Oh, all right. Moving the sail plan fore and aft will have an effect on the angle of the rudder and the amount of helm force. However, very large changes in the distribution of sail area have very modest effects. If the sail plan looks normal, the boat will work just fine. Very small changes in distribution that require the calculations that are so prominent in yacht design books are only going to change the rudder angle by small amounts and the helm force in ways you would have to make direct comparisons between identical boats under controlled conditions to detect. Boats do turn out having excessive weather helm. When this happens, it has more to do with the hull dynamics and rudder design than the sail balance. It isn't because the designer set the lead at 10% instead of 12% or even 15%. The kind of things that can be done by tweaks like raking the mast less are not going to turn a heavy helmed boat into a well balanced one. They will help a little but the psychological effect will far outweigh the actual change in helm force. People will tell you that they have solved their weather helm by adjusting mast rake but they have also really been paying attention to the boat and their steering during the tweaking process. They are tweaking other things besides the fore and aft position of the rig, like leech tightness. During the process, they get to know the boat better and their helmsmanship improves. In racing boat design, where you are trying to wring every bit of performance out of the boat, you might care whether the rudder was at a 1.5 degree instead of a 2 degree angle in a 16 knot wind with a perfect set of sails. In that case, you might look at the lead of similar boats. For cruising, and even racing among dissimilar boats, you're just fooling yourself. The rudder angle is going vary within several degrees depending on how hard the boat is being driven and other factors. Mast rake adjustment will also create detectable differences when you are obsessing about fine performance and looking carefully but this isn't the same thing as the distinction between a boat with heavy weather helm and a well balanced one. All else being equal, the amount of lead just establishes the wind speed at which helm angle will be absolutely optimum. The more lead, the higher the wind velocity. Too much lead and you will have lee helm in light air but this it pretty hard to achieve in most boats without a bowsprit. Balance in boats is real but the typical presentation of it in yacht design books and articles and the C.P. / C.L.P. business is a complete crock. -- Roger Long |
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"Gary" wrote:
You've had yours pulled ;-) So I have. I missed your the link when I wrote last night. (You can tell that New Years isn't a big deal at our house.) This turns out to be one of those newsgroup exchanges where two people who actually do know what they are talking about hurl darts back and forth reacting to simple statements and imprecise language. Clearly, you were not trying to tell me that keels develop side force at zero angle of attack, etc. Aside from providing entertainment for the bystanders, these cyber arm wrestling matches can be educational. I'm sure anything we say from this point on we'll both find that we actually understand and agree on when we dig deep enough into it. Many of these discussions get kicked off by absolutes. I can't remember if it was my statement or someone else's' but the proposition that a freewheeling prop has more drag kicked off a long thread a while ago. It's a true statement in that it will apply to the majority of auxiliary sailing vessels and engine installations. In the exceptions, the savings from freewheeling will be too small to be worth the vibration and bearing wear. It is not a theoretically accurate statement however because there are exceptions. If the friction, pitch, and size relationships are right, freewheeling may produce less drag at certain speeds. It's just not common. The contribution of weather helm to performance is a similar issue. The symmetrical keel requires an angle of attack to develop the necessary lift. As you have pointed out, (and I have agreed while sniping at you for thinking you were saying the opposite) the resulting yaw increases resistance. The rudder can develop side force lift without requiring a corresponding yaw angle of the hull as a whole. Small rudder angles can (that's "can"; not "will", "always", or anything like that) increase speed made good to windward by developing side force that does not carry the penalty of increased leeway. As the angle increases however, the lift vector of the rudder is increasingly aft and drag greater so the contribution quickly becomes negative. It's a lot like my plane, the first 10 degrees of flaps increase lift with very little change in speed. As I put them down further, they transition into being primarily speed brakes. My boat has a reputation for having weather helm. Driven hard in fresh breezes, it carries a large rudder angle and a huge wash under the transom. The angle is 15 degrees or more so there is certainly a lot of drag but it is also nearly up to hull speed by this point so it is not going to go a lot faster anyway. The boat remains very controllable as I have noted and sailing it as I have posted before makes the helm tolerable. Still, it would be nice to sail in those conditions with just 2 or 3 degrees of rudder. This situation does not exist on my boat because the lead is 15% instead of 20%. No amount of sail area distribution without adding a bowsprit would change the situation significantly. Moving the rudder all the way aft to the transom would take a degree or two off the angle because of the increased lever arm but that wouldn't turn it into a boat that didn't have a reputation for weather helm. Moving the leading edge of the keel way aft would have helped. The keel then would have needed to be deeper to develop the necessary area. The boat would be harder to haul out and in more danger if it dries out after running aground (a real consideration for the kind of sailing in out of the way places I plan to go). This kind of change might take another couple degrees off the rudder angle. The biggest change, as you have said and I have agreed in backhand, would be achieved by an increase in stability. If I were designing a new boat to be much like the E32, I would give it a bit more beam and less keel volume (very thick as a heritage from the keel/centerboard version). All these changes are what I meant when I said (not too clearly) that weather helm is more a function of the overall design than the designer's fiddling with paper cut outs of the underbody. Nice playing darts with you. Next time, we'll use a target. -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
Roger Long wrote:
"Gary" wrote: You've had yours pulled ;-) So I have. I missed your the link when I wrote last night. (You can tell that New Years isn't a big deal at our house.) This turns out to be one of those newsgroup exchanges where two people who actually do know what they are talking about hurl darts back and forth reacting to simple statements and imprecise language. Clearly, you were not trying to tell me that keels develop side force at zero angle of attack, etc. Aside from providing entertainment for the bystanders, these cyber arm wrestling matches can be educational. I'm sure anything we say from this point on we'll both find that we actually understand and agree on when we dig deep enough into it. Many of these discussions get kicked off by absolutes. I can't remember if it was my statement or someone else's' but the proposition that a freewheeling prop has more drag kicked off a long thread a while ago. It's a true statement in that it will apply to the majority of auxiliary sailing vessels and engine installations. In the exceptions, the savings from freewheeling will be too small to be worth the vibration and bearing wear. It is not a theoretically accurate statement however because there are exceptions. If the friction, pitch, and size relationships are right, freewheeling may produce less drag at certain speeds. It's just not common. The contribution of weather helm to performance is a similar issue. The symmetrical keel requires an angle of attack to develop the necessary lift. As you have pointed out, (and I have agreed while sniping at you for thinking you were saying the opposite) the resulting yaw increases resistance. The rudder can develop side force lift without requiring a corresponding yaw angle of the hull as a whole. Small rudder angles can (that's "can"; not "will", "always", or anything like that) increase speed made good to windward by developing side force that does not carry the penalty of increased leeway. As the angle increases however, the lift vector of the rudder is increasingly aft and drag greater so the contribution quickly becomes negative. It's a lot like my plane, the first 10 degrees of flaps increase lift with very little change in speed. As I put them down further, they transition into being primarily speed brakes. My boat has a reputation for having weather helm. Driven hard in fresh breezes, it carries a large rudder angle and a huge wash under the transom. The angle is 15 degrees or more so there is certainly a lot of drag but it is also nearly up to hull speed by this point so it is not going to go a lot faster anyway. The boat remains very controllable as I have noted and sailing it as I have posted before makes the helm tolerable. Still, it would be nice to sail in those conditions with just 2 or 3 degrees of rudder. This situation does not exist on my boat because the lead is 15% instead of 20%. No amount of sail area distribution without adding a bowsprit would change the situation significantly. Moving the rudder all the way aft to the transom would take a degree or two off the angle because of the increased lever arm but that wouldn't turn it into a boat that didn't have a reputation for weather helm. Moving the leading edge of the keel way aft would have helped. The keel then would have needed to be deeper to develop the necessary area. The boat would be harder to haul out and in more danger if it dries out after running aground (a real consideration for the kind of sailing in out of the way places I plan to go). This kind of change might take another couple degrees off the rudder angle. The biggest change, as you have said and I have agreed in backhand, would be achieved by an increase in stability. If I were designing a new boat to be much like the E32, I would give it a bit more beam and less keel volume (very thick as a heritage from the keel/centerboard version). All these changes are what I meant when I said (not too clearly) that weather helm is more a function of the overall design than the designer's fiddling with paper cut outs of the underbody. Nice playing darts with you. Next time, we'll use a target. I was learning the entire time. I was particularly interested in jibing centerboards. Very interesting. Gaz |
What Size ????????
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:45:06 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: If I suddenly had $40,000 to spend on a boat at this point, I would put it into this one instead of trying to trade up to something larger. We would then have a boat in which everything was right instead of just a larger and roomier collection of problems and projects. That's a good point. The bird-in-the-hand theory is great if you are doing these sort of upgrades for yourself and your own piece of mind and completely chuck out any illusions of boosting the resale value. Boats aren't like houses. Putting in a new galley for ten grand will get you two grand on resale, instead of twenty grand on a house. People ask why I keep my all-too-groovy Viking 33, and I say because it's easy for me to upgrade it to better than factory over a series of years and to incorporate new ideas as I learn of them. Thirty three feet by ten is a perfect size for me to single-hand on the Great Lakes, and it's essentially a racer I've made comfortable for limited cruising by keeping the weight low and centered. And, being a caveman-type, I like tillers G Now, the next boat I'm shopping for is the antithesis of that old racer, because I want to take it around the world. The trick will be to somehow keep the Viking 33 on ice for five years so when we come back and resume lakeside living, I can just resume my tinkering. R. |
What Size ????????
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:19:01 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: I can't wait until next summer to try this out but first, you've got to tell me what I've been doing wrong. If you ever give up boat design, you should consider comedy writing, Roger. R. |
What Size ????????
You guys are great. Knowledgeable, intelligent, articulate, provocative,
even argumentative, but COURTEOUS. It has been entertaining and educational watching your dart game. You're welcome in my saloon anytime. Dick Behan M/V Annie "Gary" wrote in message news:OHFtf.228023$Gd6.161313@pd7tw3no... Roger Long wrote: "Gary" wrote Hydrodynamic lift illustration As you can see in the attachment, the boat is sailing to windward on a close reach or close hauled. Notice how the boat does not sail perfectly straight, but rather at a slight angle (yaw)(angular component). That would be leeway, right? Once again, the goal being to minimize leeway and heel to gain maximum speed. You have conveniently snipped your initial statement that was the genesis of our discussion: "Balance of sailboats is a huge myth. The whole CP, CLR, Lead business was just a way for yacht designers to look scientific. The fact that you can make huge area changes, such as the mizzen, without much helm angle change shows how silly the whole idea is. There are schooners with 10% negative lead and they sail fine." I still call you on it! You've had yours pulled ;-) http://www.navy.gc.ca/oriole/crew/sh...mandteam_e.asp Of course your designs might not respond to huge sail area changes. They are not exactly leading edge technology, but I am a fan of classic boats. (I own a Bill Garden sloop) |
What Size ????????
"rhys" wrote
That's a good point. The bird-in-the-hand theory is great if you are doing these sort of upgrades for yourself and your own piece of mind and completely chuck out any illusions of boosting the resale value. Tell me about it. We got a great deal for $15,000 and put another $25,000 into it if you count the value of my labor. You can find an old post somewhere in the archives where I say that we would be lucky to get $17,000 if we sold it:( OTOH this is a good ace to have in the hole if my wife starts talking about selling it. We can't afford to sell it:) -- Roger Long |
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On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:56:28 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: OTOH this is a good ace to have in the hole if my wife starts talking about selling it. We can't afford to sell it:) Now don't tell that to my wife. My whole plot involves buying a well-made but only part-finished hull and letting her design the interior, but to my volume and location specs. The idea being, of course, that if she spends a year ordering cabinet makers about, it'll be "her" boat even more than mine. I'll be up the mast, inspecting the tangs G R. |
What Size ????????
"Gary" wrote in message news:osEtf.107527$2k.93334@pd7tw1no... Actually, you quoted, and your source expressed himself very poorly, using some technical sounding words incorrectly. A fin keel boat separates the water flow across the keel creating differences in hydrodynamic pressure resulting in better performance and efficiency to windward. As you can see in the attachment, the boat is sailing to windward on a close reach or close hauled. Notice how the boat does not sail perfectly straight, but rather at a slight angle (yaw)(angular component). I'm afraid the guy who wrote that lot confuses the issue by using many terms differently from those in common use. 'Straight' usually means traveling in a straight line. 'Yaw' or 'angular component' usually means a rate of turn. So his first proposal seems to mean that the boat is turning - which I'm sure is not his intention in this case. What would be very clear to most people would be to say 'The boat does not go where it points; it travels through the water slightly to leeward of its heading'. A step further would be to define this difference as the angle of leeway. Which is Roger's point exactly. The water hits the downwind side of the keel creates a pushing force called drive. The water bending around the windward side of the keel is forced to follow more of a curved path. The curving of the flow of water across the windward side creates an area of less pressure (hydrodynamic lift), and has a tendency to pull the boat up closer to the wind. This same effect also occurs at the rudder resulting in a lifting force off of the rudder and better efficiency to windward. Well, I've never heard of this 'pushing force called drive' in relation to keel behaviour, but I'm not very widely read. I'd have called it 'a lateral force'. And I would have said 'any symmetrical hydrofoil held at an angle (in this case leeway) to the water flow will generate a lateral force and some drag'. For further explanation one might say 'It does this by deflecting the water flow towards the chord line of the foil' and 'for this to occur there is necessarily low pressure on one side of the foil, and high pressure on the other'. One might then go on to explain that much of the drag element caused by the keel is due to water flowing around the lower tip of the keel from high to low pressure, creating a vortex. This would lead nicely to an explanation of why long keels suffer more leeway, instead of your sources incredibly garbled account of why long keels don't allow an angle (which, fair enough, you didn't quote). I think you've got yourself a very bad textbook here. JimB |
What Size ????????
News f2s wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message news:osEtf.107527$2k.93334@pd7tw1no... Actually, you quoted, and your source expressed himself very poorly, using some technical sounding words incorrectly. A fin keel boat separates the water flow across the keel creating differences in hydrodynamic pressure resulting in better performance and efficiency to windward. As you can see in the attachment, the boat is sailing to windward on a close reach or close hauled. Notice how the boat does not sail perfectly straight, but rather at a slight angle (yaw)(angular component). I'm afraid the guy who wrote that lot confuses the issue by using many terms differently from those in common use. 'Straight' usually means traveling in a straight line. 'Yaw' or 'angular component' usually means a rate of turn. So his first proposal seems to mean that the boat is turning - which I'm sure is not his intention in this case. What would be very clear to most people would be to say 'The boat does not go where it points; it travels through the water slightly to leeward of its heading'. A step further would be to define this difference as the angle of leeway. Which is Roger's point exactly. The water hits the downwind side of the keel creates a pushing force called drive. The water bending around the windward side of the keel is forced to follow more of a curved path. The curving of the flow of water across the windward side creates an area of less pressure (hydrodynamic lift), and has a tendency to pull the boat up closer to the wind. This same effect also occurs at the rudder resulting in a lifting force off of the rudder and better efficiency to windward. Well, I've never heard of this 'pushing force called drive' in relation to keel behaviour, but I'm not very widely read. I'd have called it 'a lateral force'. And I would have said 'any symmetrical hydrofoil held at an angle (in this case leeway) to the water flow will generate a lateral force and some drag'. For further explanation one might say 'It does this by deflecting the water flow towards the chord line of the foil' and 'for this to occur there is necessarily low pressure on one side of the foil, and high pressure on the other'. One might then go on to explain that much of the drag element caused by the keel is due to water flowing around the lower tip of the keel from high to low pressure, creating a vortex. This would lead nicely to an explanation of why long keels suffer more leeway, instead of your sources incredibly garbled account of why long keels don't allow an angle (which, fair enough, you didn't quote). I think you've got yourself a very bad textbook here. JimB The discussion is over. John and I have agreed on the point. Sorry. |
What Size ????????
The discussion is over. John and I have agreed on the point.
Sorry. John who? -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
Great pictures Roger. Incidentally, the 52.7 meter barque that your article says wasn't built actually was built! - I sailed on her several years while serving on the crew. - Well, almost! Actually, the Elissa, built in 1877 in Aberdeen Scotland, is a barque docked in Galveston that looks very much like the one shown in your drawing. It is maintained in sailing condition by a volunteer crew at the Texas Seaport Museum in Galveston, associated with the Galveston Historical Society, and sailed in the Gulf several days each year. The historical connection to Galveston relates to the fact that it docked in Galveston twice in the 1800's while engaged in trade between England, the US, and ports in South America.- When I was on the crew, in addition to training, maintenance and promotional events, I conducted guided tours of the ship. In return, we crew members and guests got to sail on her several times during the Summer. (It could get pretty exciting, particularly when going aloft to let out the royal and topgallants, holding onto the yardarm with one arm while working the sails with the other while standing on a tensioned foot line extending below the arm, all done while the ship was bouncing around in 25-knot winds. But what a beautiful view from up there!) In any event, you may want to check out their site: http://www.tsm-elissa.org/ Jim Cate Roger Long wrote: After a summer sailing the Endeavor 32 we bought last year, I would start looking for another one tomorrow if anything happened to it. This is from the perspective of a boat designer and a quarter century of sailing on a wide variety of boats between 7 and 380 feet. It's primarily a good choice if your budget is limited. We got a very clean 1980 boat for $15,000 and put about half of that again into upgrades. For that, we got a boat with full headroom, six berths (at least for an overnight), open and very woody interior, carries a few more than it sleeps comfortably on daysails. We got good sails and a great diesel engine. It's still small enough for easy singlehanding and managing alone in a tight marina berth. This is a very middle of the road boat that doesn't stand out in any particular area but does just about everything you need in cruising very well. It isn't fast but it isn't slow either. We often sail past faster boats if they aren't paying close attention to sail trim. I always feel like we are making good progress on cruising legs. It is a shoal draft, wide headsail sheeting base, vessel so windward isn't her best point of sail but beating performance is still way ahead of traditional vessels and she makes solid progress. What really endears her to me is the handling. The turning radius is tight and response quick which makes marinas and tight docking situations easier. Unlike most boats I've sailed with this kind of helm response, she can be overpowered and driven down hard in a tight spot without ever threatening to take charge. There is plenty of helm force but, when you overcome it, she does what you need her to do. I'd like slower helm response if we did more long cruising but she is just right for fun daysailing and shorter trips. A good autopilot would provide the best of both worlds. This is not a true blue water boat although they have sailed at least half way around the world that I know of. They were designed for island hopping in the Caribbean and have an excellent hot weather interior with all opening ports. With new ports and some beefing up of cockpit and other openings, they should be capable of going farther than most people would want to go. The detail work is a bit rough in spots, you can see that a lot of ganja got smoked during the construction but a three quarter inch solid glass hull makes up for a lot of sins. The decks are stiffened with plywood glassed under the main lay-up so there is no coring anywhere to worry about. If I suddenly had $50,000 to spend on a boat at this point, I would still look for one of these for about 20 and then have it stripped and redone soup to nuts. It's a great hull with the comfort and easy motion of a traditional boat but the responsive handling of a modern one. If I had $150,000 for a boat and were designing one for custom construction, it would still look a lot like our E32. Look for a 1980 - 1982 for the best features. You can see the story of our boat at: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/RWL.htm |
What Size ????????
I know the Elissa well. The next tall ship on my site, the full
rigged one, was being designed for an organization headed by the fellow who was director of the Elissa restoration project. He made that one happen but just couldn't get the new ship project off the ground. -- Roger Long "Jim Cate" wrote in message ... Great pictures Roger. Incidentally, the 52.7 meter barque that your article says wasn't built actually was built! - I sailed on her several years while serving on the crew. - Well, almost! Actually, the Elissa, built in 1877 in Aberdeen Scotland, is a barque docked in Galveston that looks very much like the one shown in your drawing. It is maintained in sailing condition by a volunteer crew at the Texas Seaport Museum in Galveston, associated with the Galveston Historical Society, and sailed in the Gulf several days each year. The historical connection to Galveston relates to the fact that it docked in Galveston twice in the 1800's while engaged in trade between England, the US, and ports in South America.- When I was on the crew, in addition to training, maintenance and promotional events, I conducted guided tours of the ship. In return, we crew members and guests got to sail on her several times during the Summer. (It could get pretty exciting, particularly when going aloft to let out the royal and topgallants, holding onto the yardarm with one arm while working the sails with the other while standing on a tensioned foot line extending below the arm, all done while the ship was bouncing around in 25-knot winds. But what a beautiful view from up there!) In any event, you may want to check out their site: http://www.tsm-elissa.org/ Jim Cate Roger Long wrote: After a summer sailing the Endeavor 32 we bought last year, I would start looking for another one tomorrow if anything happened to it. This is from the perspective of a boat designer and a quarter century of sailing on a wide variety of boats between 7 and 380 feet. It's primarily a good choice if your budget is limited. We got a very clean 1980 boat for $15,000 and put about half of that again into upgrades. For that, we got a boat with full headroom, six berths (at least for an overnight), open and very woody interior, carries a few more than it sleeps comfortably on daysails. We got good sails and a great diesel engine. It's still small enough for easy singlehanding and managing alone in a tight marina berth. This is a very middle of the road boat that doesn't stand out in any particular area but does just about everything you need in cruising very well. It isn't fast but it isn't slow either. We often sail past faster boats if they aren't paying close attention to sail trim. I always feel like we are making good progress on cruising legs. It is a shoal draft, wide headsail sheeting base, vessel so windward isn't her best point of sail but beating performance is still way ahead of traditional vessels and she makes solid progress. What really endears her to me is the handling. The turning radius is tight and response quick which makes marinas and tight docking situations easier. Unlike most boats I've sailed with this kind of helm response, she can be overpowered and driven down hard in a tight spot without ever threatening to take charge. There is plenty of helm force but, when you overcome it, she does what you need her to do. I'd like slower helm response if we did more long cruising but she is just right for fun daysailing and shorter trips. A good autopilot would provide the best of both worlds. This is not a true blue water boat although they have sailed at least half way around the world that I know of. They were designed for island hopping in the Caribbean and have an excellent hot weather interior with all opening ports. With new ports and some beefing up of cockpit and other openings, they should be capable of going farther than most people would want to go. The detail work is a bit rough in spots, you can see that a lot of ganja got smoked during the construction but a three quarter inch solid glass hull makes up for a lot of sins. The decks are stiffened with plywood glassed under the main lay-up so there is no coring anywhere to worry about. If I suddenly had $50,000 to spend on a boat at this point, I would still look for one of these for about 20 and then have it stripped and redone soup to nuts. It's a great hull with the comfort and easy motion of a traditional boat but the responsive handling of a modern one. If I had $150,000 for a boat and were designing one for custom construction, it would still look a lot like our E32. Look for a 1980 - 1982 for the best features. You can see the story of our boat at: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/RWL.htm |
What Size ????????
Roger Long wrote:
The discussion is over. John and I have agreed on the point. Sorry. John who? Sorry Roger. Roger and I. |
What Size ????????
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 17:09:23 -0500, Larry wrote:
/// Everytime I see a tug, I think back to the 60's when I was a young sailor on a destroyer tender. We were stern-to a quay out in Naples, IT, harbor and every couple of days these two Italians came by in their 1920- something diesel tug to bring us a new garbage barge and haul off the full one. The tug was spotless. What pride they took in that boat. There were only two aboard, the captain and the engineer, who had to be in the engine room to run the old, I-have-no-idea-whos, diesel. Wide open hauling the barge away it must have turned up 120 RPM! It idled at barely turning, probably 20 RPM, with a beautiful rhythmic thump...thump...thump. /// single screw hiptowing the large barge was just a beautiful ballet. Then, they'd untie from the fresh and tie up to the full one. The captain would reach in and give the big wheel a spin, going back outside to line handle. The engineer shoved her in forward and give her ahead standard throttle. He then left the engine room for the wheelhouse just in time to go rudder amidships, without the captain ever looking over his shoulder. I don't think they ever spoke a word during the entire operation. Off they went, headed back to the salvage yard to see if we'd left them any government presents on the barge..... Thump...thump...thump...thump out of sight....(c; /// What an evocative note ...beautifully written Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
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