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What Size ????????
"rhys" wrote
That's a good point. The bird-in-the-hand theory is great if you are doing these sort of upgrades for yourself and your own piece of mind and completely chuck out any illusions of boosting the resale value. Tell me about it. We got a great deal for $15,000 and put another $25,000 into it if you count the value of my labor. You can find an old post somewhere in the archives where I say that we would be lucky to get $17,000 if we sold it:( OTOH this is a good ace to have in the hole if my wife starts talking about selling it. We can't afford to sell it:) -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:56:28 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: OTOH this is a good ace to have in the hole if my wife starts talking about selling it. We can't afford to sell it:) Now don't tell that to my wife. My whole plot involves buying a well-made but only part-finished hull and letting her design the interior, but to my volume and location specs. The idea being, of course, that if she spends a year ordering cabinet makers about, it'll be "her" boat even more than mine. I'll be up the mast, inspecting the tangs G R. |
What Size ????????
"Gary" wrote in message news:osEtf.107527$2k.93334@pd7tw1no... Actually, you quoted, and your source expressed himself very poorly, using some technical sounding words incorrectly. A fin keel boat separates the water flow across the keel creating differences in hydrodynamic pressure resulting in better performance and efficiency to windward. As you can see in the attachment, the boat is sailing to windward on a close reach or close hauled. Notice how the boat does not sail perfectly straight, but rather at a slight angle (yaw)(angular component). I'm afraid the guy who wrote that lot confuses the issue by using many terms differently from those in common use. 'Straight' usually means traveling in a straight line. 'Yaw' or 'angular component' usually means a rate of turn. So his first proposal seems to mean that the boat is turning - which I'm sure is not his intention in this case. What would be very clear to most people would be to say 'The boat does not go where it points; it travels through the water slightly to leeward of its heading'. A step further would be to define this difference as the angle of leeway. Which is Roger's point exactly. The water hits the downwind side of the keel creates a pushing force called drive. The water bending around the windward side of the keel is forced to follow more of a curved path. The curving of the flow of water across the windward side creates an area of less pressure (hydrodynamic lift), and has a tendency to pull the boat up closer to the wind. This same effect also occurs at the rudder resulting in a lifting force off of the rudder and better efficiency to windward. Well, I've never heard of this 'pushing force called drive' in relation to keel behaviour, but I'm not very widely read. I'd have called it 'a lateral force'. And I would have said 'any symmetrical hydrofoil held at an angle (in this case leeway) to the water flow will generate a lateral force and some drag'. For further explanation one might say 'It does this by deflecting the water flow towards the chord line of the foil' and 'for this to occur there is necessarily low pressure on one side of the foil, and high pressure on the other'. One might then go on to explain that much of the drag element caused by the keel is due to water flowing around the lower tip of the keel from high to low pressure, creating a vortex. This would lead nicely to an explanation of why long keels suffer more leeway, instead of your sources incredibly garbled account of why long keels don't allow an angle (which, fair enough, you didn't quote). I think you've got yourself a very bad textbook here. JimB |
What Size ????????
News f2s wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message news:osEtf.107527$2k.93334@pd7tw1no... Actually, you quoted, and your source expressed himself very poorly, using some technical sounding words incorrectly. A fin keel boat separates the water flow across the keel creating differences in hydrodynamic pressure resulting in better performance and efficiency to windward. As you can see in the attachment, the boat is sailing to windward on a close reach or close hauled. Notice how the boat does not sail perfectly straight, but rather at a slight angle (yaw)(angular component). I'm afraid the guy who wrote that lot confuses the issue by using many terms differently from those in common use. 'Straight' usually means traveling in a straight line. 'Yaw' or 'angular component' usually means a rate of turn. So his first proposal seems to mean that the boat is turning - which I'm sure is not his intention in this case. What would be very clear to most people would be to say 'The boat does not go where it points; it travels through the water slightly to leeward of its heading'. A step further would be to define this difference as the angle of leeway. Which is Roger's point exactly. The water hits the downwind side of the keel creates a pushing force called drive. The water bending around the windward side of the keel is forced to follow more of a curved path. The curving of the flow of water across the windward side creates an area of less pressure (hydrodynamic lift), and has a tendency to pull the boat up closer to the wind. This same effect also occurs at the rudder resulting in a lifting force off of the rudder and better efficiency to windward. Well, I've never heard of this 'pushing force called drive' in relation to keel behaviour, but I'm not very widely read. I'd have called it 'a lateral force'. And I would have said 'any symmetrical hydrofoil held at an angle (in this case leeway) to the water flow will generate a lateral force and some drag'. For further explanation one might say 'It does this by deflecting the water flow towards the chord line of the foil' and 'for this to occur there is necessarily low pressure on one side of the foil, and high pressure on the other'. One might then go on to explain that much of the drag element caused by the keel is due to water flowing around the lower tip of the keel from high to low pressure, creating a vortex. This would lead nicely to an explanation of why long keels suffer more leeway, instead of your sources incredibly garbled account of why long keels don't allow an angle (which, fair enough, you didn't quote). I think you've got yourself a very bad textbook here. JimB The discussion is over. John and I have agreed on the point. Sorry. |
What Size ????????
The discussion is over. John and I have agreed on the point.
Sorry. John who? -- Roger Long |
What Size ????????
Great pictures Roger. Incidentally, the 52.7 meter barque that your article says wasn't built actually was built! - I sailed on her several years while serving on the crew. - Well, almost! Actually, the Elissa, built in 1877 in Aberdeen Scotland, is a barque docked in Galveston that looks very much like the one shown in your drawing. It is maintained in sailing condition by a volunteer crew at the Texas Seaport Museum in Galveston, associated with the Galveston Historical Society, and sailed in the Gulf several days each year. The historical connection to Galveston relates to the fact that it docked in Galveston twice in the 1800's while engaged in trade between England, the US, and ports in South America.- When I was on the crew, in addition to training, maintenance and promotional events, I conducted guided tours of the ship. In return, we crew members and guests got to sail on her several times during the Summer. (It could get pretty exciting, particularly when going aloft to let out the royal and topgallants, holding onto the yardarm with one arm while working the sails with the other while standing on a tensioned foot line extending below the arm, all done while the ship was bouncing around in 25-knot winds. But what a beautiful view from up there!) In any event, you may want to check out their site: http://www.tsm-elissa.org/ Jim Cate Roger Long wrote: After a summer sailing the Endeavor 32 we bought last year, I would start looking for another one tomorrow if anything happened to it. This is from the perspective of a boat designer and a quarter century of sailing on a wide variety of boats between 7 and 380 feet. It's primarily a good choice if your budget is limited. We got a very clean 1980 boat for $15,000 and put about half of that again into upgrades. For that, we got a boat with full headroom, six berths (at least for an overnight), open and very woody interior, carries a few more than it sleeps comfortably on daysails. We got good sails and a great diesel engine. It's still small enough for easy singlehanding and managing alone in a tight marina berth. This is a very middle of the road boat that doesn't stand out in any particular area but does just about everything you need in cruising very well. It isn't fast but it isn't slow either. We often sail past faster boats if they aren't paying close attention to sail trim. I always feel like we are making good progress on cruising legs. It is a shoal draft, wide headsail sheeting base, vessel so windward isn't her best point of sail but beating performance is still way ahead of traditional vessels and she makes solid progress. What really endears her to me is the handling. The turning radius is tight and response quick which makes marinas and tight docking situations easier. Unlike most boats I've sailed with this kind of helm response, she can be overpowered and driven down hard in a tight spot without ever threatening to take charge. There is plenty of helm force but, when you overcome it, she does what you need her to do. I'd like slower helm response if we did more long cruising but she is just right for fun daysailing and shorter trips. A good autopilot would provide the best of both worlds. This is not a true blue water boat although they have sailed at least half way around the world that I know of. They were designed for island hopping in the Caribbean and have an excellent hot weather interior with all opening ports. With new ports and some beefing up of cockpit and other openings, they should be capable of going farther than most people would want to go. The detail work is a bit rough in spots, you can see that a lot of ganja got smoked during the construction but a three quarter inch solid glass hull makes up for a lot of sins. The decks are stiffened with plywood glassed under the main lay-up so there is no coring anywhere to worry about. If I suddenly had $50,000 to spend on a boat at this point, I would still look for one of these for about 20 and then have it stripped and redone soup to nuts. It's a great hull with the comfort and easy motion of a traditional boat but the responsive handling of a modern one. If I had $150,000 for a boat and were designing one for custom construction, it would still look a lot like our E32. Look for a 1980 - 1982 for the best features. You can see the story of our boat at: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/RWL.htm |
What Size ????????
I know the Elissa well. The next tall ship on my site, the full
rigged one, was being designed for an organization headed by the fellow who was director of the Elissa restoration project. He made that one happen but just couldn't get the new ship project off the ground. -- Roger Long "Jim Cate" wrote in message ... Great pictures Roger. Incidentally, the 52.7 meter barque that your article says wasn't built actually was built! - I sailed on her several years while serving on the crew. - Well, almost! Actually, the Elissa, built in 1877 in Aberdeen Scotland, is a barque docked in Galveston that looks very much like the one shown in your drawing. It is maintained in sailing condition by a volunteer crew at the Texas Seaport Museum in Galveston, associated with the Galveston Historical Society, and sailed in the Gulf several days each year. The historical connection to Galveston relates to the fact that it docked in Galveston twice in the 1800's while engaged in trade between England, the US, and ports in South America.- When I was on the crew, in addition to training, maintenance and promotional events, I conducted guided tours of the ship. In return, we crew members and guests got to sail on her several times during the Summer. (It could get pretty exciting, particularly when going aloft to let out the royal and topgallants, holding onto the yardarm with one arm while working the sails with the other while standing on a tensioned foot line extending below the arm, all done while the ship was bouncing around in 25-knot winds. But what a beautiful view from up there!) In any event, you may want to check out their site: http://www.tsm-elissa.org/ Jim Cate Roger Long wrote: After a summer sailing the Endeavor 32 we bought last year, I would start looking for another one tomorrow if anything happened to it. This is from the perspective of a boat designer and a quarter century of sailing on a wide variety of boats between 7 and 380 feet. It's primarily a good choice if your budget is limited. We got a very clean 1980 boat for $15,000 and put about half of that again into upgrades. For that, we got a boat with full headroom, six berths (at least for an overnight), open and very woody interior, carries a few more than it sleeps comfortably on daysails. We got good sails and a great diesel engine. It's still small enough for easy singlehanding and managing alone in a tight marina berth. This is a very middle of the road boat that doesn't stand out in any particular area but does just about everything you need in cruising very well. It isn't fast but it isn't slow either. We often sail past faster boats if they aren't paying close attention to sail trim. I always feel like we are making good progress on cruising legs. It is a shoal draft, wide headsail sheeting base, vessel so windward isn't her best point of sail but beating performance is still way ahead of traditional vessels and she makes solid progress. What really endears her to me is the handling. The turning radius is tight and response quick which makes marinas and tight docking situations easier. Unlike most boats I've sailed with this kind of helm response, she can be overpowered and driven down hard in a tight spot without ever threatening to take charge. There is plenty of helm force but, when you overcome it, she does what you need her to do. I'd like slower helm response if we did more long cruising but she is just right for fun daysailing and shorter trips. A good autopilot would provide the best of both worlds. This is not a true blue water boat although they have sailed at least half way around the world that I know of. They were designed for island hopping in the Caribbean and have an excellent hot weather interior with all opening ports. With new ports and some beefing up of cockpit and other openings, they should be capable of going farther than most people would want to go. The detail work is a bit rough in spots, you can see that a lot of ganja got smoked during the construction but a three quarter inch solid glass hull makes up for a lot of sins. The decks are stiffened with plywood glassed under the main lay-up so there is no coring anywhere to worry about. If I suddenly had $50,000 to spend on a boat at this point, I would still look for one of these for about 20 and then have it stripped and redone soup to nuts. It's a great hull with the comfort and easy motion of a traditional boat but the responsive handling of a modern one. If I had $150,000 for a boat and were designing one for custom construction, it would still look a lot like our E32. Look for a 1980 - 1982 for the best features. You can see the story of our boat at: http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/RWL.htm |
What Size ????????
Roger Long wrote:
The discussion is over. John and I have agreed on the point. Sorry. John who? Sorry Roger. Roger and I. |
What Size ????????
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 17:09:23 -0500, Larry wrote:
/// Everytime I see a tug, I think back to the 60's when I was a young sailor on a destroyer tender. We were stern-to a quay out in Naples, IT, harbor and every couple of days these two Italians came by in their 1920- something diesel tug to bring us a new garbage barge and haul off the full one. The tug was spotless. What pride they took in that boat. There were only two aboard, the captain and the engineer, who had to be in the engine room to run the old, I-have-no-idea-whos, diesel. Wide open hauling the barge away it must have turned up 120 RPM! It idled at barely turning, probably 20 RPM, with a beautiful rhythmic thump...thump...thump. /// single screw hiptowing the large barge was just a beautiful ballet. Then, they'd untie from the fresh and tie up to the full one. The captain would reach in and give the big wheel a spin, going back outside to line handle. The engineer shoved her in forward and give her ahead standard throttle. He then left the engine room for the wheelhouse just in time to go rudder amidships, without the captain ever looking over his shoulder. I don't think they ever spoke a word during the entire operation. Off they went, headed back to the salvage yard to see if we'd left them any government presents on the barge..... Thump...thump...thump...thump out of sight....(c; /// What an evocative note ...beautifully written Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
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