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  #11   Report Post  
Old December 18th 05, 11:48 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Marshall Rice
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern

In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Commodore Joe Redcloud" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:35:49 -0000, "Duncan Heenan"

wrote:
snip .
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up.


Not if she has no idea what is truly involved and required to do the
proposed
sort of sailing. She may be basing her decisions on her feelings for the
old
man, and her trust that he knows what he is talking about, since he has a
history of sailing experience. She has no apparent knowledge of the
realities of
sailing. She doesn't know enough to even know what questions to ask.


Commodore Joe Redcloud


People should still be allowed to make their own mistakes.


Not at the expense of others.
--
Marshall Rice

(Put the bin out to email me)

  #12   Report Post  
Old December 18th 05, 11:49 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Marshall Rice
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern

In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about 25%
of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe is
typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a natural
concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four 85 year
olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease too
late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad decision
making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK

IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse?


It's certainly likely to shorten it and make its end rather more
stressful and/or uncomfortable.

--
Marshall Rice

(Put the bin out to email me)
  #13   Report Post  
Old December 18th 05, 11:50 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Marshall Rice
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern

In message , Peter HK
writes

"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...

IF you're a doctor,


Haven't been struck off yet


and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to make the rest of his
life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old enough to make her own
mind up. Is it the father's happiness the daughter's worried about, or her
inheritance going on a boat and a girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that
he'll tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at
sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to
look forward to/

The decision if and/or when to intervene when someone has an illness that
will impair their judgement and rational decision making cpacity is
difficult. Most of us live in nanny states that want to protect people from
themselves.

I personally would not be keen to intervene if it were only he at risk, but
there is the issue of his friend and possibly others. What if he forgot to
keep appropriate attention and hit another vessel, or failed to anchor
properly and dragged, damaging other vessels or their crew?

As an analogy, a few years ago there was report of an elderly demented man
who entered a motorway up an off ramp and was driving in the opposite
direction to the traffic. A fatal accident occurred, killing a couple in
another car, while the demented man was uninjured.

Would you stop him driving? I would.

Is a boat so different?


Indeed it is.

You can do vastly more damage with a boat.
--
Marshall Rice

(Put the bin out to email me)
  #14   Report Post  
Old December 19th 05, 08:41 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Pete Verdon
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern

Marshall Rice wrote:
In message , Peter HK writes


Would you stop him driving? I would.

Is a boat so different?


Indeed it is.

You can do vastly more damage with a boat.


?

How? A hunk of fibreglass travelling at six knots through largely empty
space (marinas excepted) vs a ton of steel at 70mph no more than a few
feet from objects either stationary or moving at speed in the opposite
direction.

Pete
  #15   Report Post  
Old December 19th 05, 10:54 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Duncan Heenan
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern


"Graham Frankland" gfranklandattiscalidotcodotuk wrote in message
...
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about
25% of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you
describe
is typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a
natural concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four
85 year olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to
make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then
take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I
think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease
too late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad
decision making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the
spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK

IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up. Is it the father's happiness the
daughter's worried about, or her inheritance going on a boat and a
girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that
he'll tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at
sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to
look forward to/

I guess Duncan hasn't had to care for someone with Alzheimers or senile
dimentia and of course we don't know if this guy does have it.

I used to have a registered care home and had to deal with it on
a daily basis and I am now having to watch my brother deteriorate with it.
Cases obviously vary somewhat and so does the speed of deterioration but
there are some common factors. In earlier stages there are bouts of
fear and panic, particularly when going somewhere and then realising they
don't know where they are, where they were going or, how to get home
again.
Increasingly irrational behaviour, mood swings and some become very
aggressive. Not too far down the line, inability to find the
toilet/bedroom/kitchen etc in their own house, (this confusion
dramatically increases in unfamiliar surroundings) Need assistance with
dressing, toilet etc. Short term memory is the first to deteriorate and
before long they don't know when they've eaten maybe only 5 minutes
afterwards. They forget who close relatives and friends are and rational
converation becomes impossible. Further down the slippery slope may come
the inability to even sit down without assistance, incontinence, etc.

Personally, I would rather sail with a drunk - at least they're sober some
of the time!

Graham.


As it happens I do have experience of watching and caring for someone slide
down the slope of dementia. My conclusion is that if it starts to happen to
me I'd rather drown happy before I get too far down that slope. I wouldn't
want to sail with someone in that condition, but I also wouldn't want
someone to make that decision for me.




  #16   Report Post  
Old December 19th 05, 10:56 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Duncan Heenan
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern


"Peter HK" wrote in message
...

"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...


Society's moral judgements are reflected in the law. There is no law
against unqualified people sailing boats, there is one regarding people
who drive cars, who have to be licensed and medically fit. Your example
is a poor one


Here there are requirements for boat licences that do require
competency/medical fitness exactly like car licences. Thus the analogy is
apt.


In that case the question is self answering - if he can get a licence he can
go, if he can't he can't.

because the demented man driving the car was doing so illegally. Society
has, by not requiring sailors to take tests, ruled that anyone can go
sailing on their own decision alone.


See above.

Relying on a doctor to decide on what
you should or should not do is rather like letting the motor mechanic
decide where you should drive your car to. I can see no reason to give
any more credence to a doctor's moral views than anyone else's, lest of
all the 'patient', especially when the patient doesn't even feel ill.



I wasn't discussing "moral" views rather medicolegal issues. There are
Laws- which you seem to accept as a basis for society according to your
first sentence- dealing with mental capacity, substituted decision making
etc. I have to work within that framework.

Peter HK


And not detaining people against their will is part of the legal framework.


  #17   Report Post  
Old December 19th 05, 10:57 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Duncan Heenan
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern


"Marshall Rice" wrote in message
...
In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Commodore Joe Redcloud" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:35:49 -0000, "Duncan Heenan"

wrote:
snip .
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up.

Not if she has no idea what is truly involved and required to do the
proposed
sort of sailing. She may be basing her decisions on her feelings for the
old
man, and her trust that he knows what he is talking about, since he has
a
history of sailing experience. She has no apparent knowledge of the
realities of
sailing. She doesn't know enough to even know what questions to ask.


Commodore Joe Redcloud


People should still be allowed to make their own mistakes.


Not at the expense of others.
--


Lawyers do it all the time.


  #18   Report Post  
Old December 19th 05, 10:59 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Duncan Heenan
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern


"Marshall Rice" wrote in message
...
In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about
25%
of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe is
typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a natural
concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four 85 year
olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to
make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then
take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I
think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease
too
late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad
decision
making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK

IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse?


It's certainly likely to shorten it and make its end rather more stressful
and/or uncomfortable.


Less stressful?? Have you seen someone developing Alzheimer's?
There is more to life than comfort - ask any sailor!


  #19   Report Post  
Old December 19th 05, 01:20 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Ronald Raygun
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern

Duncan Heenan wrote:

"Peter HK" wrote in message
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message

There is no law
against unqualified people sailing boats, there is one regarding people
who drive cars, who have to be licensed and medically fit.


Here there are requirements for boat licences that do require
competency/medical fitness exactly like car licences.


I'm just wondering how unique the UK is in not making sailing licensable.
Are there (m)any other countries which don't? How long do people think
it will be before the UK does fall into line with the practices of
other countries? It may well happen through the back door, billed as a
measure to combat terrorism, smuggling, and money laundering.

In that case the question is self answering - if he can get a licence he
can go, if he can't he can't.


He might already have one. It could be that licensing involves a once-only
test and no periodic medicals.

  #20   Report Post  
Old December 19th 05, 01:36 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing,aus.sport.sailing,alt.sailing
Duncan Heenan
 
Posts: n/a
Default A question of concern


"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
. uk...
Duncan Heenan wrote:

"Peter HK" wrote in message
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message

There is no law
against unqualified people sailing boats, there is one regarding people
who drive cars, who have to be licensed and medically fit.

Here there are requirements for boat licences that do require
competency/medical fitness exactly like car licences.


I'm just wondering how unique the UK is in not making sailing licensable.
Are there (m)any other countries which don't? How long do people think
it will be before the UK does fall into line with the practices of
other countries? It may well happen through the back door, billed as a
measure to combat terrorism, smuggling, and money laundering.


More likely to be introduced to raise revenue for the Government. Radio
licencing already exists, though what you get for you money I'm not sure.
How can the Government 'own' radio frequencies?

In that case the question is self answering - if he can get a licence he
can go, if he can't he can't.


He might already have one. It could be that licensing involves a
once-only
test and no periodic medicals.

If so it's the regulations which are mad, not necessarily him.




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