On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:09:35 GMT, Gary wrote:

Welding new plates on is a bigger job than grinding out blisters and no
boat ever sank from blisters!

Agreed. I am looking at steel, aluminum AND fibreglass for
ocean-capable cruisers in the 40-45 foot range. I am seeing decent
examples of each, with a few observations:

The aluminum boats are very touchy about galvanism, and dent easiest.
However, they tend to sail very nicely, but command a premium in price
and, I expect, attention from the owner to keep them free from
electrical issues. To build them is easiest; to weld them is tougher.

The steel boats have a huge variability in fit, finish and general
construction. A lot of homebuilts are utter crap, particularly those
ubiquitous Roberts designs; on the other hand, I have seen that about
1 in 10 are as good or better than any production boat of similar
dimensions. The break point of steel in term of "too heavy" is around
40 feet for a cruiser, but you can get a "leisurely" sailer that is
pretty bulletproof in that range if you are willing to wield a
chipping hammer and stay on top of the paint schedule.

The fibreglass production boats of today are generally insufficient in
design and strength for offshore. They have too much freeboard and not
enough beef where it counts. There are exceptions, of course, but if
you can find and live with designs 25 years or so old (and the boat
isn't a wreck or needs immediate repowering and refurbishment), you
can find some nice deals.

In sum, I am finding a pilothouse cutter and/or ketch that can sail
semi-decently in any material is difficult, but not impossible. You
won't find "names" in these category, however, because the vast
majority of recreational sailors stop at coastal or perhaps Caribbean
sailing grounds. That's fine: they have scads of choices, particularly
lately as the charter fleets are cycling out middle-aged boats because
there's reduced mooring due to hurricanes, etc.

But a three cabin, two head Beneteau is a long way from what I want to
cross the Pacific with.

R.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:33:03 -0500, rhys wrote:

The break point of steel in term of "too heavy" is around 40 feet for a
cruiser, but you can get a "leisurely" sailer that is pretty bulletproof
in that range if you are willing to wield a chipping hammer and stay on
top of the paint schedule.

I would contest this slightly, I have a 31' steel boat that weighs in at
(allegedly - I never checked) 6,5 tonnes, which is not really any more
than a similar sized cruiser of other materials. There are certainly much
heavier wooden and plastic boats out there..

My hull is mostly 3mm I think, multi-chine with plenty of framing and
after 20 years and 2 atlantic crossings the external plates are not
significantly buckled except in a couple of places under the waterline
where I think the hard stuff has been in contact.

In your comment, you seem to be implying that a cruiser and a leisureley
sailor would be different things? If so then maybe a steel yacht under 40'
would be too leisurely for you, but I find fast boats are uncomfortable
and noisy when I'm trying to sleep.

--
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On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:56:57 +0000, Iain Hibbert
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:33:03 -0500, rhys wrote:

The break point of steel in term of "too heavy" is around 40 feet for a
cruiser, but you can get a "leisurely" sailer that is pretty bulletproof
in that range if you are willing to wield a chipping hammer and stay on
top of the paint schedule.

I would contest this slightly, I have a 31' steel boat that weighs in at
(allegedly - I never checked) 6,5 tonnes, which is not really any more
than a similar sized cruiser of other materials. There are certainly much
heavier wooden and plastic boats out there..

By contrast, my 34' 1973 GRP cruiser-racer is 4.5 tonnes. I check it
in the slings at haulout, because too much weight affects my trim. 6.5
tonnes for a 31' steel boat is, to my mind, pretty light. Of course, a
31' foot cruiser in steel is pretty rare in itself.

My hull is mostly 3mm I think, multi-chine with plenty of framing and
after 20 years and 2 atlantic crossings the external plates are not
significantly buckled except in a couple of places under the waterline
where I think the hard stuff has been in contact.

Out of curiosity, what are your interior hull coatings and how have
they held up and/or been maintained? I am always interested in hearing
how various coatings fair with heavy usage.

In your comment, you seem to be implying that a cruiser and a leisureley
sailor would be different things? If so then maybe a steel yacht under 40'
would be too leisurely for you, but I find fast boats are uncomfortable
and noisy when I'm trying to sleep.

No, I am actually implying that certain steel boats in the
"motorsailer" category are somewhat undercanvassed in that they
sometimes don't move effectively in the light airs typical of coastal
work, the Great Lakes, etc. Conversely, give them 20 knots and they'll
move smartly. The debate between "fast, light cruiser derived from
racing notions to get out of the way of weather" versus "heavy,
spacious full-keeler that can heave to and endure" is informative and
I have no particular axe...or metal...to grind. Currently, I favour
safety, comfort and that abstract quality of "sea-kindliness" over
pure zip, like you find in, say, the larger J-Boats marketed as
cruisers.

But that's because if I have to save for a larger J-Boat, I'll never
go a-voyaging. G

R.

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:56:46 -0500, rhys wrote:
By contrast, my 34' 1973 GRP cruiser-racer is 4.5 tonnes.

cruiser racer..

Of course, a 31' foot cruiser in steel is pretty rare in itself.

I'll excuse you because you are on the other side of the atlantic, but its
a common enough size here. In fact I bought it on your side and got a good
deal because presumably nobody wanted such a small boat, heh.

actually, they did put a large enough rig on mine (12m mast) and I found in
a marina with other boats the same size, my mast was one of the tallest
excepting the fractional rigs, so I guess they may have worried aobut the
weight. I have thought it might be interesting to offload all the junk
and see how we sail but that could take days.

Out of curiosity, what are your interior hull coatings and how have
they held up and/or been maintained? I am always interested in hearing
how various coatings fair with heavy usage.

Inside is still pretty good, I believe it was sandblasted and sprayed
with coal tar epoxy inside when new. I had to deal with a few crusty
bits under the floorboards last year (very difficult to get to) and it
didnt look as if any maintenance had been done before down there. In a
couple of high usage areas (bottom of cockpit locker, and anchor locker)
I have had to cut and weld, but the worst continual rust problems I get are
on the inside edge of the inwardly leaning 4" high toe rail where the deck
is only about 8" wide behind the cockpit coaming and you can't even see
any rust without a small mirror never mind cleaning it off, poor design.

--
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=irelan...244,0.0822&t=k

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:53:15 +0000, Iain Hibbert
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 04:56:46 -0500, rhys wrote:
By contrast, my 34' 1973 GRP cruiser-racer is 4.5 tonnes.

cruiser racer..

Of course, a 31' foot cruiser in steel is pretty rare in itself.

I'll excuse you because you are on the other side of the atlantic, but its
a common enough size here. In fact I bought it on your side and got a good
deal because presumably nobody wanted such a small boat, heh.

You rarely see it here, admittedly, although a local couple and their
kids circumnavigated a few years back in a steel, junk-rigged 30
footer called "Lorcha".


Out of curiosity, what are your interior hull coatings and how have
they held up and/or been maintained? I am always interested in hearing
how various coatings fair with heavy usage.

Inside is still pretty good, I believe it was sandblasted and sprayed
with coal tar epoxy inside when new. I had to deal with a few crusty
bits under the floorboards last year (very difficult to get to) and it
didnt look as if any maintenance had been done before down there. In a
couple of high usage areas (bottom of cockpit locker, and anchor locker)
I have had to cut and weld, but the worst continual rust problems I get are
on the inside edge of the inwardly leaning 4" high toe rail where the deck
is only about 8" wide behind the cockpit coaming and you can't even see
any rust without a small mirror never mind cleaning it off, poor design.

That's sometimes the problem with steel. Designer assume you've got
ordinary seamen available to chip and paint constantly.

That looks like Fenit, Co. Kerry, facing the Dingle Peninsula. I know
the area well, but as a cyclist, not a sailor. There's at least four
bike shops in Tralee, and all seem to be owned by (if I recall) a
family called Cable.

Is that dockage pretty rough? It looks a bit exposed.

R.

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 01:01:15 -0500, rhys wrote:

That's sometimes the problem with steel. Designer assume you've got
ordinary seamen available to chip and paint constantly.

yeah, must get some of those..

That looks like Fenit, Co. Kerry, facing the Dingle Peninsula. I know
the area well, but as a cyclist, not a sailor. There's at least four
bike shops in Tralee, and all seem to be owned by (if I recall) a
family called Cable.

I've only found two bike shops so far, one is Caball and the other is a
combo "Bicycle/Gas Cooker/Nursery Supplies" shop, not sure where they got
that idea from, heh. It seems good cycling around here as its mostly
flat, though Beara peninsula was fun. I am living aboard at Fenit for the
winter and cycle to Tralee (8 miles) fairly regularly.

Is that dockage pretty rough? It looks a bit exposed.

Not really, if you zoom out a bit you can see that the fetch to the south
is about a mile. The fetch to the east is longer and a bit of slop comes
in in an easterly gale. Westerly the fetch is about 5 miles but the open
ocean is kind of around the corner to the northwest so no big swell gets
here so far as I can see (I've only been here a month) but we are fully
protected from that direction.

having said that, Fenit means Rough in Gaelic, and I have been hit by
spray coming over the wall and I'm 150ft away..

--
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more bad news for this yacht...
http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=2484&sc=2

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:03:09 GMT, Don White
wrote:

more bad news for this yacht...
http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=2484&sc=2

I didn't get the sense from that article if it had--or if it COULD
be--refloated and towed to a safer harbour.

If it's still on the beach, are they vandals or salvagers? I'm not
trying to be a smartass here, and my sympathies are with the old
fellow, but is this vessel not "abandoned"?

R.