Courtney Thomas wrote:

That's what I was looking for....i.e. the reason that some/most
boatowners decide to cover, i.e. the destructive potential of the
thaw/freeze cycle of the encumbent precipitation.

What'd the old-timers do ?

Cordially,

Courtney

Here on the Atlantic Coast of Canada, I'd recommend a cover. We usually
get a lot of freeze/thaw cycles and the prevaling winds make us the
tailpipe of North America. That is...most of our pollution originates
in central Canada or the US.

"Harlan Lachman" wrote in message
...
In article k.net,
Courtney Thomas wrote:

Last year most of the sailboats [fiberglass] I personally saw [on the
hard]
in eastern Canada were not plastic wrapped, polyethylene I guess, for
Winter, but most I saw in Maine were.

Granted, I didn't see any large number in either area, but what are the
possible perceptions and motives in each case ?

Thank you,

Courtney

Courtney, the joys of shrink wrapping a boat are that almost always it
is done by a yard (one less cold weather project), it holds up great,
looks good, and keeps rain, ice, snow, debris and everything else off
one's boat. OTOH, at $20+ a foot it can be expensive and poly is not
good for the environment.

That's why around here the outfit that intalled the stuff is required
to remove it in the spring and recycle it. Never ends up in the landfill.

The benefit of the alternative of using poly tarps is that it is cheaper
to buy the plastic once -- at least for as long as they last. The
downsides are that if it deforms or rips (which it will sooner or later)
during the season, you have no protection, it creates a storage issue,
and seams can leak no matter how well overlapped (especially in
conjunction with the first downside) and poly is still bad for the
environment when it is eventually disposed of.

This year, I opted for a frame and canvas cover. The idea being that
storage would be easier (more durable and easier to put away then the
poly that often ripped in my basement) and that over four or five
seasons it would pay for itself. The downsides are the upfront costs,
having to store and build the frame each year oneself (to save on
installation to warrant the initial cost).

Up front costs are not a problem. Oops! I almost forgot, we fabricate them
so we like upfront costs

If I remember, no sure things these days, eventually I will post a
follow-up as to whether I think the canvas is better not only from an
ecological perspective, but from performance and cost.

We never use canvas per se. Ecologically, better to recycle of course.
Performance is better, but cost may be a toss up. Probably better in
the long run depending on longevity.

harlan

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
news
Harlan Lachman wrote:
Courtney, the joys of shrink wrapping a boat are that almost always it is
done by a yard (one less cold weather project), it holds up great, looks
good, and keeps rain, ice, snow, debris and everything else off one's
boat. OTOH, at $20+ a foot it can be expensive and poly is not good for
the environment.

A couple more downsides to shrink wrap: there's no ventilation in a
shrink-wrapped boat..it traps and holds humidity, resulting in moldy musty
interiors next spring. You can't go aboard on any of those occasional
amazing days in the middle of winter to open it up to let it air out, or
check on anything--like finding out whether any critters have decided to
homestead your cabin--or do any of those little projects you should do
this fall, but didn't and COULD do if you could go aboard for a day.

IMO, you're a lot better off giving your hull and deck a heavy coat of wax
to protect the fiberglass...and then cover it instead of shrinkwrapping
it.

Yards around here put vents in the shrinkwrap. Rarely heard anybody
make mention about mildew problems. One must open some hatches or something
to let the boat itself breath. Even a cover will not prevent mildew if the
boat
is left buttoned up.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

In article .net,
Courtney Thomas wrote:

Harlan Lachman wrote:
In article k.net,
Courtney Thomas wrote:


Harlan Lachman wrote:

In article ,
Peggie Hall wrote:



Harlan Lachman wrote:


Courtney, the joys of shrink wrapping a boat are that almost always it
is done by a yard (one less cold weather project), it holds up great,
looks good, and keeps rain, ice, snow, debris and everything else off
one's boat. OTOH, at $20+ a foot it can be expensive and poly is not
good for the environment.

A couple more downsides to shrink wrap: there's no ventilation in a
shrink-wrapped boat..it traps and holds humidity, resulting in moldy
musty interiors next spring. You can't go aboard on any of those
occasional amazing days in the middle of winter to open it up to let it
air out, or check on anything--like finding out whether any critters
have decided to homestead your cabin--or do any of those little projects
you should do this fall, but didn't and COULD do if you could go aboard
for a day.

IMO, you're a lot better off giving your hull and deck a heavy coat of
wax to protect the fiberglass...and then cover it instead of
shrinkwrapping it.


Actually Peggy, up here in Vermont, they now build in vents for the
boats, usually one at each end or one on the stern and one on either
side by the mast.

Years ago, as one of the people in charge of VT's energy efficiency
programs, I had to learn a lot about ventilation. My guess is most of
the vents in most of the boat covers don't work real well.

Effective ventilation requires low intakes and high exhausts and a lot
more free vent area than anyone is going to put on a boat. Some say
canvas is porous enough to allow moisture to migrate.

My guess it is best to keep boats in climates where covers are
unnecessary.

harlan

Apparently, there are many who regard covers as unnecessary, which is
the main idea I'm probing with this query. That is, I see quite a few
boats in the New England area, and north, that do not use a cover at
all. I can certainly see that if you're storing in an area with
significant air pollution that a cover would possibly be wise but if
that's not the case, why cover, other than maybe something like a boom
tent to shed the snow should the snow load become excessive.

When is the snow load excessive ? Is it due to melt/freeze cycle that
results in possible ice damage, or what ?

Thanks again,

Courtney


Courtney, no one up here worries about too much snow. The weight is not
going to cause a problem.

It is the ability of water to penetrate and expand through seams and
around hardware that is chilling (sorry about the pun) and the freezing
and thawing action that is so common especially on those cold days when
the sun comes out and then the temp drops way below zero on cool nites.

Some of the new boats at our yard remain uncovered so they can be shown
all year. I doubt this is a good thing, at least some years where the
freezing and thawing cycles are worser. The poor workers get to shovel
them off.

harlan

Thanks Harlan.

That's what I was looking for....i.e. the reason that some/most
boatowners decide to cover, i.e. the destructive potential of the
thaw/freeze cycle of the encumbent precipitation.

What'd the old-timers do ?

Cordially,

Courtney

Courtney, my dad is now in his 80s. I remember some years (or all for
that matter) he had inside storage (land costs were low and it allowed
the yards to work on boats during the off season and since many were
wooden boats....)

But if I can remember, I will ask what he used to do and post.

h

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:14:16 -0400, Harlan Lachman
wrote:



Effective ventilation requires low intakes and high exhausts and a lot
more free vent area than anyone is going to put on a boat. Some say
canvas is porous enough to allow moisture to migrate.

I use aluminum frames and canvas (it will likely go up this week as we
hauled on Friday. I find that if I leave a couple of fenders from the
lifelines to the toerail, I get a few inches of "stand-off" even with
the canvas properly lashed, but I get proper ventilation.

The boat still stays pretty warm on sunny days, even when it's below
freezing. This year for the first time the starboard length of the
boat is facing south and is unobstructed. I'll note if this makes a
difference...I hope so, as I am considering replacing the port lights
and a little warmth on deck would help matters immensely!

R.

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 03:07:15 GMT,
Peggie Hall wrote:
Harlan Lachman wrote:
Courtney, the joys of shrink wrapping a boat are that almost always it
is done by a yard (one less cold weather project), it holds up great,
looks good, and keeps rain, ice, snow, debris and everything else off
one's boat. OTOH, at $20+ a foot it can be expensive and poly is not
good for the environment.

A couple more downsides to shrink wrap: there's no ventilation in a
shrink-wrapped boat..it traps and holds humidity, resulting in moldy
musty interiors next spring. You can't go aboard on any of those
occasional amazing days in the middle of winter to open it up to let it
air out, or check on anything--like finding out whether any critters
have decided to homestead your cabin--or do any of those little projects
you should do this fall, but didn't and COULD do if you could go aboard
for a day.

IMO, you're a lot better off giving your hull and deck a heavy coat of
wax to protect the fiberglass...and then cover it instead of
shrinkwrapping it.



one of my neighbours in the marina had his boat shrink wrapped last
year. They put a zippered door in the side of the wrapping, and there
was a vent with a fan running all the time. He said he had no problems
with condensation.

--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Homo sapiens, isn't

Don White wrote:

Courtney Thomas wrote:

That's what I was looking for....i.e. the reason that some/most
boatowners decide to cover, i.e. the destructive potential of the
thaw/freeze cycle of the encumbent precipitation.

What'd the old-timers do ?

Cordially,

Courtney

Here on the Atlantic Coast of Canada, I'd recommend a cover. We usually
get a lot of freeze/thaw cycles and the prevaling winds make us the
tailpipe of North America. That is...most of our pollution originates
in central Canada or the US.

Don,

Is poly wrap OK to get through a first season in your area, later building a
cover since no time to do it now for me, or is the venting such a problem
that one would be better off leaving uncovered ?

How have you observed venting to be adequately done or is it considered
inconsequential in your area ?

Cordially,
Courtney

Harry Krause wrote:

Peggie Hall wrote:
Harlan Lachman wrote:
Courtney, the joys of shrink wrapping a boat are that almost always it
is done by a yard (one less cold weather project), it holds up great,
looks good, and keeps rain, ice, snow, debris and everything else off
one's boat. OTOH, at $20+ a foot it can be expensive and poly is not
good for the environment.

A couple more downsides to shrink wrap: there's no ventilation in a
shrink-wrapped boat..it traps and holds humidity, resulting in moldy
musty interiors next spring. You can't go aboard on any of those
occasional amazing days in the middle of winter to open it up to let it
air out, or check on anything--like finding out whether any critters
have decided to homestead your cabin--or do any of those little projects
you should do this fall, but didn't and COULD do if you could go aboard
for a day.


My yard puts vents in the shrinkwrap. We leave the deck hatches and side
ports open, with the screens in place. When we unwrap in spring,
everything is just about as clean as when we stored, and there's no
weather deterioration.

But it certainly is true you cannot get inside...unless your yard works
a door into the shrinkwrap, which I have seen done.

Harry,

Are the vents bought or made ?

If bought, where and price; if made, how, please ?

Thanks again,

Courtney

One reason to cover is so you do not end up with snow in the cockpit, later
turning to ice, later blocking the cockpit drains, later flooding the
interior.

I do like the idea of a year round season but the earning potential off a
deserted Caribbean island is not the same as a the midwest.

But our day is coming.....

B
"Courtney Thomas" wrote in message
link.net...
Harlan Lachman wrote:
In article k.net,
Courtney Thomas wrote:


Harlan Lachman wrote:

In article ,
Peggie Hall wrote:



Harlan Lachman wrote:


Courtney, the joys of shrink wrapping a boat are that almost always it
is done by a yard (one less cold weather project), it holds up great,
looks good, and keeps rain, ice, snow, debris and everything else off
one's boat. OTOH, at $20+ a foot it can be expensive and poly is not
good for the environment.

A couple more downsides to shrink wrap: there's no ventilation in a
shrink-wrapped boat..it traps and holds humidity, resulting in moldy
musty interiors next spring. You can't go aboard on any of those
occasional amazing days in the middle of winter to open it up to let it
air out, or check on anything--like finding out whether any critters
have decided to homestead your cabin--or do any of those little
projects you should do this fall, but didn't and COULD do if you could
go aboard for a day.

IMO, you're a lot better off giving your hull and deck a heavy coat of
wax to protect the fiberglass...and then cover it instead of
shrinkwrapping it.


Actually Peggy, up here in Vermont, they now build in vents for the
boats, usually one at each end or one on the stern and one on either
side by the mast.
Years ago, as one of the people in charge of VT's energy efficiency
programs, I had to learn a lot about ventilation. My guess is most of
the vents in most of the boat covers don't work real well.
Effective ventilation requires low intakes and high exhausts and a lot
more free vent area than anyone is going to put on a boat. Some say
canvas is porous enough to allow moisture to migrate.
My guess it is best to keep boats in climates where covers are
unnecessary.

harlan

Apparently, there are many who regard covers as unnecessary, which is the
main idea I'm probing with this query. That is, I see quite a few boats
in the New England area, and north, that do not use a cover at all. I can
certainly see that if you're storing in an area with significant air
pollution that a cover would possibly be wise but if that's not the case,
why cover, other than maybe something like a boom tent to shed the snow
should the snow load become excessive.

When is the snow load excessive ? Is it due to melt/freeze cycle that
results in possible ice damage, or what ?

Thanks again,

Courtney


Courtney, no one up here worries about too much snow. The weight is not
going to cause a problem.

It is the ability of water to penetrate and expand through seams and
around hardware that is chilling (sorry about the pun) and the freezing
and thawing action that is so common especially on those cold days when
the sun comes out and then the temp drops way below zero on cool nites.

Some of the new boats at our yard remain uncovered so they can be shown
all year. I doubt this is a good thing, at least some years where the
freezing and thawing cycles are worser. The poor workers get to shovel
them off.

harlan

Thanks Harlan.

That's what I was looking for....i.e. the reason that some/most boatowners
decide to cover, i.e. the destructive potential of the thaw/freeze cycle
of the encumbent precipitation.

What'd the old-timers do ?

Cordially,

Courtney

Courtney Thomas wrote:
Don White wrote:


Courtney Thomas wrote:


That's what I was looking for....i.e. the reason that some/most
boatowners decide to cover, i.e. the destructive potential of the
thaw/freeze cycle of the encumbent precipitation.

What'd the old-timers do ?

Cordially,

Courtney

Here on the Atlantic Coast of Canada, I'd recommend a cover. We usually
get a lot of freeze/thaw cycles and the prevaling winds make us the
tailpipe of North America. That is...most of our pollution originates
in central Canada or the US.


Don,

Is poly wrap OK to get through a first season in your area, later building a
cover since no time to do it now for me, or is the venting such a problem
that one would be better off leaving uncovered ?

How have you observed venting to be adequately done or is it considered
inconsequential in your area ?

Cordially,
Courtney

Venting very important in this damp climate. With my mini-cruiser
sailboat, the canvas cover stretched over the mast (acting like ridge
pole,) and open at the bow pulpit and at stern rail for flow through
ventilation, was good enough. Poly (5 mil builders vapor barrier) does
tend to form condensation, so the venting might be even more important.
This area can be windy through fall/winter/spring so the poly will have
to be reinforced somehow.
I went over to a commercial fishers supply company last year and bought
fishnet (size that's not used much anymore) dirt cheap. I had planned to
throw this over the heavy canvas, but it wasn't really needed. If I was
using poly, or the blue/green/silver tarps available at most hardware
stores, I would throw the net over all and secure.
You've got me thinking...I wonder what they do each spring with all the
little white vents while removing shrinkwrap.