"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Bryan" wrote:

Well, Isabelle and Ellen are little girls, so is my wife, she weighs 120
pounds. They do not bench 350 pounds and will never be stronger or bigger

You can call your wife a girl if you want to, but I don't think
Isabelle and Ellen are actually little girls. They are little or
small or petite women. I don't see what benching 350 lbs has to do
with anything. I don't think my husband can do that either, and
neither can most men (or boys).

Well Rosalie,

Girls are girls and boys are boys and symatics are symantics. When I spoke
of the fairer sex I spoke in terms of brute strength, girls (sorry, gentle
ladies) are not as strong as boys (Ooops, gentleman) in general but as
witnessed by the success of girl (Darn, gentle lady) sailors that does not
matter when sailing. If I miss a spot please feel free to substitute girl
with any of the following lady/woman/madam/Miss/Mrs/Ms/gentle lady.......



than most guys. That said, they are great sailors with substantial
acomplishment, more than I will ever achieve. They also sail very large
boats with no power winches, huge rigs, in very demanding conditions. So
if these girls can sail large boats, why can't a couple cruise a 50, 60,
or
70 footer as a team? When cruisng you have the benefit of going in good

If something happens to one of the team the weaker member should be
able to handle the boat alone.

I agree completely but what does the size of the boat have to do with
handling it? Gear is sized accordingly and none of us can bench 350, well
most of us.


weather versus racing when you leave when the race starts. What exotic
gear

If you are doing a long passage, you probably are going to run into
weather regardless of when you leave or how carefully you watch the
weather.

If you are on a larger faster boat your chances of sailing in bad weather
are greatly reduced.


is on a Vendee that is not on a typical cruising boat?

They have better communication gear and someone is monitoring their
progress.

So? You still have to sail the boat not the guy (sorry gentleman) on the
other end of the radio. I doubt Herb is coming to help.

You sound like fun Grandma Rosalie!


"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Bryan wrote:
Honestly guys, I gotta laugh at some of this advice. Many claim you
can't handle larger yachts without huge crew, exotic gear, and mega
wallets. How many folks here have lived on, sailed, docked, bought,
or maintained 50 footers, 60 footers, or 70 footers? Look at the
60's racing non-stop around the world by little girls.

That's what most of us do. Look at 'em. BTW, do _you_ do anything
different?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare

grandma Rosalie

"Bryan" wrote:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .
"Bryan" wrote:

Well, Isabelle and Ellen are little girls, so is my wife, she weighs 120
pounds. They do not bench 350 pounds and will never be stronger or bigger

You can call your wife a girl if you want to, but I don't think
Isabelle and Ellen are actually little girls. They are little or
small or petite women. I don't see what benching 350 lbs has to do
with anything. I don't think my husband can do that either, and
neither can most men (or boys).

Well Rosalie,

Girls are girls and boys are boys and symatics are symantics. When I spoke
of the fairer sex I spoke in terms of brute strength, girls (sorry, gentle
ladies) are not as strong as boys (Ooops, gentleman) in general but as
witnessed by the success of girl (Darn, gentle lady) sailors that does not
matter when sailing. If I miss a spot please feel free to substitute girl

I think that you have to be there to appreciate how condescending it
sounds to call grown women "girls". I don't think you would address a
black man as "boy" would you?

And making it seem like someone is making a big fuss over nothing is
one of the ways that people resist changing their terminology and
their basic attitudes.

*I* can call another woman a girl. You can call your wife a girl.
And I don't go with calling a chairman a chairperson because that's a
bit silly. But to me a little girl would be my 5 yo granddaughter. A
big girl would be my college age granddaughter. And anyone older than
that would surely no longer be a girl.

with any of the following lady/woman/madam/Miss/Mrs/Ms/gentle lady.......

than most guys. That said, they are great sailors with substantial
acomplishment, more than I will ever achieve. They also sail very large
boats with no power winches, huge rigs, in very demanding conditions. So
if these girls can sail large boats, why can't a couple cruise a 50, 60,
or
70 footer as a team? When cruisng you have the benefit of going in good

If something happens to one of the team the weaker member should be
able to handle the boat alone.

I agree completely but what does the size of the boat have to do with
handling it? Gear is sized accordingly and none of us can bench 350, well
most of us.

weather versus racing when you leave when the race starts. What exotic
gear

If you are doing a long passage, you probably are going to run into
weather regardless of when you leave or how carefully you watch the
weather.

If you are on a larger faster boat your chances of sailing in bad weather
are greatly reduced.

Not that much unless it is a REALLY fast boat. I hear this all the
time, but really - what chance did any boat in the Gulf have of
outrunning Katrina? And where would they have had to go to get out of
the way?

is on a Vendee that is not on a typical cruising boat?

They have better communication gear and someone is monitoring their
progress.

So? You still have to sail the boat not the guy (sorry gentleman) on the

I used to call the male persons that went to college with me guys
because I didn't think they were men yet and didn't want to call them
boys. Guys doesn't seem as fraught. And anyway, I'm not one. You
can call them guys-- if they don't object, I won't because it is not
my place to do so.

other end of the radio. I doubt Herb is coming to help.

Yes but you asked what differences there are and that is one that I
could name without being really aware of what the big race boats have
in the way of equipment.

Come to think of it they probably also have better, newer and more
high tech sails and maybe more of them (different kinds). They are
probably also more homogeneous in the equipment that they carry as
there are all varieties of cruising boats.
\
You sound like fun Grandma Rosalie!

I like a little discussion from time to time.

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Bryan wrote:
Honestly guys, I gotta laugh at some of this advice. Many claim you
can't handle larger yachts without huge crew, exotic gear, and mega
wallets. How many folks here have lived on, sailed, docked, bought,

I do agree that you don't need huge crew, exotic gear etc. We have a
manual windlass and no electric winches. Bit if I were to want to
single hand (as I've said elsewhere), I would get a smaller boat.

or maintained 50 footers, 60 footers, or 70 footers? Look at the
60's racing non-stop around the world by little girls.

That's what most of us do. Look at 'em. BTW, do _you_ do anything
different?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare

grandma Rosalie


grandma Rosalie

In Rosalie B. writes:

"Bryan" wrote:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
"Bryan" wrote:

Well, Isabelle and Ellen are little girls, so is my wife, she weighs 120
pounds. They do not bench 350 pounds and will never be stronger or bigger

You can call your wife a girl if you want to, but I don't think
Isabelle and Ellen are actually little girls. They are little or
small or petite women. I don't see what benching 350 lbs has to do
with anything. I don't think my husband can do that either, and
neither can most men (or boys).

Well Rosalie,

Girls are girls and boys are boys and symatics are symantics. When I spoke
of the fairer sex I spoke in terms of brute strength, girls (sorry, gentle
ladies) are not as strong as boys (Ooops, gentleman) in general but as
witnessed by the success of girl (Darn, gentle lady) sailors that does not
matter when sailing. If I miss a spot please feel free to substitute girl

I think that you have to be there to appreciate how condescending it
sounds to call grown women "girls". I don't think you would address a
black man as "boy" would you?

And making it seem like someone is making a big fuss over nothing is
one of the ways that people resist changing their terminology and
their basic attitudes.

*I* can call another woman a girl. You can call your wife a girl.
And I don't go with calling a chairman a chairperson because that's a
bit silly. But to me a little girl would be my 5 yo granddaughter. A
big girl would be my college age granddaughter. And anyone older than
that would surely no longer be a girl.

with any of the following lady/woman/madam/Miss/Mrs/Ms/gentle lady.......

than most guys. That said, they are great sailors with substantial
acomplishment, more than I will ever achieve. They also sail very large
boats with no power winches, huge rigs, in very demanding conditions. So
if these girls can sail large boats, why can't a couple cruise a 50, 60,
or
70 footer as a team? When cruisng you have the benefit of going in good

If something happens to one of the team the weaker member should be
able to handle the boat alone.

I agree completely but what does the size of the boat have to do with
handling it? Gear is sized accordingly and none of us can bench 350, well
most of us.

weather versus racing when you leave when the race starts. What exotic
gear

If you are doing a long passage, you probably are going to run into
weather regardless of when you leave or how carefully you watch the
weather.

If you are on a larger faster boat your chances of sailing in bad weather
are greatly reduced.

Not that much unless it is a REALLY fast boat. I hear this all the
time, but really - what chance did any boat in the Gulf have of
outrunning Katrina? And where would they have had to go to get out of
the way?

is on a Vendee that is not on a typical cruising boat?

They have better communication gear and someone is monitoring their
progress.

So? You still have to sail the boat not the guy (sorry gentleman) on the

I used to call the male persons that went to college with me guys
because I didn't think they were men yet and didn't want to call them
boys. Guys doesn't seem as fraught. And anyway, I'm not one. You
can call them guys-- if they don't object, I won't because it is not
my place to do so.

other end of the radio. I doubt Herb is coming to help.

Yes but you asked what differences there are and that is one that I
could name without being really aware of what the big race boats have
in the way of equipment.

Come to think of it they probably also have better, newer and more
high tech sails and maybe more of them (different kinds). They are
probably also more homogeneous in the equipment that they carry as
there are all varieties of cruising boats.
\
You sound like fun Grandma Rosalie!

I like a little discussion from time to time.

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Bryan wrote:
Honestly guys, I gotta laugh at some of this advice. Many claim you
can't handle larger yachts without huge crew, exotic gear, and mega
wallets. How many folks here have lived on, sailed, docked, bought,

I do agree that you don't need huge crew, exotic gear etc. We have a
manual windlass and no electric winches. Bit if I were to want to
single hand (as I've said elsewhere), I would get a smaller boat.

or maintained 50 footers, 60 footers, or 70 footers? Look at the
60's racing non-stop around the world by little girls.

That's what most of us do. Look at 'em. BTW, do _you_ do anything
different?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare

grandma Rosalie


grandma Rosalie

Looks like some people think that sailig is a game of brute force. I
would say, that it is more a game of brains and in most cases the lack
of brute force can be compensated by using brains, but it is much more
difficult to compensate for the lack of brains with brute force.

We know that we should spare rare commoditities, looks like some people
lack more brains than muscle. Of course there has never been any
shortage of stupidity, so it can be used quite freely.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Dave wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:16:29 GMT, Rosalie B.
said:

I think that you have to be there to appreciate how condescending it
sounds to call grown women "girls". I don't think you would address a
black man as "boy" would you?

Bad analogy. His use of the term had nothing to do with race. A rational

Sex discrimination and race discrimination are BOTH discrimination.
So the analogy was to discrimination. Not to race discrimination.

person would address whether use of the term "boy" to refer to an adult
male, regardless of his race, is offensive. Problem is that when you

I don't think so. It wouldn't be offensive for me as a senior citizen
to call a younger male (non black) person such as a college age or
high school age male a boy. Depending on when you think a person
becomes an adult.

So if you don't like the analogy to 'boy', how about calling a short
male person "a little man"? It would be accurate wouldn't it?

approach it in that fashion the argument isn't very persuasive, since it
doesn't drag in the irrelevant and emotionally charged issue of
discrimination on the basis of race..

And making it seem like someone is making a big fuss over nothing is
one of the ways that people resist changing their terminology and
their basic attitudes.

Not a matter of "seeming." I do resist changing my terminology. Nothing
wrong with my basic attitude. (With my only child's being a daughter I have
a personal interest in non-discriminatory treatment of women.) I'm simply
irritated by folks who insist on jumping on a soap box for their favorite
cause at the least excuse.

Some terminology changes ARE just really silly. Like chairperson for
chairman or post person for postman.

And this isn't one of my favorite cause either. Most of the time I
personally find it sort of funny, and I sometimes use the prejudices
of people to my advantage. Sometimes people look at me and see a fat
old woman and assume I'm also stupid. I didn't disabuse them of this
attitude when I was working as an inspector (although I have been
charged with entrapment - IMO they trapped themselves) because it made
my job a little easier.

It just hit me wrong that Bryan was calling Ellen a 'little girl'.

Dave
(Who still starts his business letters to corporate recipients with
"Gentlemen:")

grandma Rosalie

Watch the films made by and about Ellen to see some differences in these
boats.
Also, for being a little "girl", Ellen has some big cajones!! ;)
Gordon


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:16:29 GMT, Rosalie B.
said:

I think that you have to be there to appreciate how condescending it
sounds to call grown women "girls". I don't think you would address a
black man as "boy" would you?

Bad analogy. His use of the term had nothing to do with race. A rational

Sex discrimination and race discrimination are BOTH discrimination.
So the analogy was to discrimination. Not to race discrimination.

person would address whether use of the term "boy" to refer to an adult
male, regardless of his race, is offensive. Problem is that when you

I don't think so. It wouldn't be offensive for me as a senior citizen
to call a younger male (non black) person such as a college age or
high school age male a boy. Depending on when you think a person
becomes an adult.

So if you don't like the analogy to 'boy', how about calling a short
male person "a little man"? It would be accurate wouldn't it?

approach it in that fashion the argument isn't very persuasive, since it
doesn't drag in the irrelevant and emotionally charged issue of
discrimination on the basis of race..

And making it seem like someone is making a big fuss over nothing is
one of the ways that people resist changing their terminology and
their basic attitudes.

Not a matter of "seeming." I do resist changing my terminology. Nothing
wrong with my basic attitude. (With my only child's being a daughter I
have
a personal interest in non-discriminatory treatment of women.) I'm simply
irritated by folks who insist on jumping on a soap box for their favorite
cause at the least excuse.

Some terminology changes ARE just really silly. Like chairperson for
chairman or post person for postman.

And this isn't one of my favorite cause either. Most of the time I
personally find it sort of funny, and I sometimes use the prejudices
of people to my advantage. Sometimes people look at me and see a fat
old woman and assume I'm also stupid. I didn't disabuse them of this
attitude when I was working as an inspector (although I have been
charged with entrapment - IMO they trapped themselves) because it made
my job a little easier.

It just hit me wrong that Bryan was calling Ellen a 'little girl'.

Dave
(Who still starts his business letters to corporate recipients with
"Gentlemen:")

grandma Rosalie

On 22 Sep 2005 09:19:02 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:16:29 GMT, Rosalie B.
said:

I think that you have to be there to appreciate how condescending it
sounds to call grown women "girls". I don't think you would address a
black man as "boy" would you?

Bad analogy. His use of the term had nothing to do with race.
// (With my only child's being a daughter I have
a personal interest in non-discriminatory treatment of women.) I'm simply
irritated by folks who insist on jumping on a soap box for their favorite
cause at the least excuse.

Dave
(Who still starts his business letters to corporate recipients with
"Gentlemen:")


1) I suggested to a teacher list that it is always acceptable to
label a visibly immature female as a girl, a visibly mature female as
a young woman, and a female over 21 as a woman.

2) I have taken to starting business memos with
Folks,
yada, yada.
This is thje south-west, after all....

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Grandma R wrote It just hit me wrong that Bryan was calling Ellen a 'little
girl'.

Maybe it's just an age thing. Often when racing, a call for consensus comes
up and a common phrase is: "Well boy's, what do we want to do here". The
crew is all grown men but when on board it feels like a boys club.

Regardless of my terminology. Ellen and Isabelle have proven what can be
done on large yachts with a minimal crew of petite ladies. Better or
stuffy?

You are fun Grandma R, I'll bet you would have fit right in the Isabelle
and Ellen mold in your day.

Bryan


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:16:29 GMT, Rosalie B.
said:

I think that you have to be there to appreciate how condescending it
sounds to call grown women "girls". I don't think you would address a
black man as "boy" would you?

Bad analogy. His use of the term had nothing to do with race. A rational

Sex discrimination and race discrimination are BOTH discrimination.
So the analogy was to discrimination. Not to race discrimination.

person would address whether use of the term "boy" to refer to an adult
male, regardless of his race, is offensive. Problem is that when you

I don't think so. It wouldn't be offensive for me as a senior citizen
to call a younger male (non black) person such as a college age or
high school age male a boy. Depending on when you think a person
becomes an adult.

So if you don't like the analogy to 'boy', how about calling a short
male person "a little man"? It would be accurate wouldn't it?

approach it in that fashion the argument isn't very persuasive, since it
doesn't drag in the irrelevant and emotionally charged issue of
discrimination on the basis of race..

And making it seem like someone is making a big fuss over nothing is
one of the ways that people resist changing their terminology and
their basic attitudes.

Not a matter of "seeming." I do resist changing my terminology. Nothing
wrong with my basic attitude. (With my only child's being a daughter I
have
a personal interest in non-discriminatory treatment of women.) I'm simply
irritated by folks who insist on jumping on a soap box for their favorite
cause at the least excuse.

Some terminology changes ARE just really silly. Like chairperson for
chairman or post person for postman.

And this isn't one of my favorite cause either. Most of the time I
personally find it sort of funny, and I sometimes use the prejudices
of people to my advantage. Sometimes people look at me and see a fat
old woman and assume I'm also stupid. I didn't disabuse them of this
attitude when I was working as an inspector (although I have been
charged with entrapment - IMO they trapped themselves) because it made
my job a little easier.

It just hit me wrong that Bryan was calling Ellen a 'little girl'.

Dave
(Who still starts his business letters to corporate recipients with
"Gentlemen:")

grandma Rosalie

Rosalie B. wrote:
Dave wrote:

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:16:29 GMT, Rosalie B.
said:

I think that you have to be there to appreciate how condescending it
sounds to call grown women "girls". I don't think you would address a
black man as "boy" would you?

Bad analogy. His use of the term had nothing to do with race. A rational

Sex discrimination and race discrimination are BOTH discrimination.
So the analogy was to discrimination. Not to race discrimination.

person would address whether use of the term "boy" to refer to an adult
male, regardless of his race, is offensive. Problem is that when you

I don't think so. It wouldn't be offensive for me as a senior citizen
to call a younger male (non black) person such as a college age or
high school age male a boy. Depending on when you think a person
becomes an adult.


Maybe it's not "my place" to have an opinion on this since I'm "not
one," but I've always found this sensitivity on some women's part to
the term "girl," to be silly. Seems to me that there's nothing
pejorative about the word, and that the terms "girl" and "woman" are
not mutually exclusive....in my eyes anyway, an adult female is
(hopefully) both. And speaking on behalf of us guys if I may, I don't
think we would ever take offense at being referred to as "boy," I don't
know, it doesn't bother me and I know I'm a man too. Kind of a mix of
characteristics of both depending on the situation. At the office or
taking care of my kids, I'm pretty much a grown-up and a man, but when
zooming around on my waverunner or screaming my head off at a rock
concert, say, hopefully I'll always be that little kid at heart as they
say.

richforman

Human males that play with toys are "boys," regardless of their age, the
size of the toys, or other meanings of the word boy. Human females that
have their own toys are -- "girls," regardless of other meanings of the word
girl. And, lets face it, non-commercial water craft are "toys."

So, if boats bring a bit of joy to your life, then you are really a boy or
girl at heart.

There was a time that I was old and very serious. Now, I am back to being a
boy (well, part of the time.) Life is better now. Even my business is
better now that am not so serious about everything.

Aaron

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
wrote:


Maybe it's not "my place" to have an opinion on this since I'm "not
one," but I've always found this sensitivity on some women's part to
the term "girl," to be silly. Seems to me that there's nothing
pejorative about the word, and that the terms "girl" and "woman" are
not mutually exclusive....in my eyes anyway, an adult female is
(hopefully) both. And speaking on behalf of us guys if I may, I don't
think we would ever take offense at being referred to as "boy," I don't
know, it doesn't bother me and I know I'm a man too. Kind of a mix of
characteristics of both depending on the situation. At the office or
taking care of my kids, I'm pretty much a grown-up and a man, but when
zooming around on my waverunner or screaming my head off at a rock
concert, say, hopefully I'll always be that little kid at heart as they
say.

I once tried to repeat what I thought was an extremely funny joke that
Flip Wilson made about coming back from vacation 'tanned and fit' to a
black colleague. It did not go over well. That reminded me that
while a person who is in a group can make remarks about the group,
that it my not be OK for a person not in the group to make the same
remarks.

So I agree that it is not your place to think that some women are too
sensitive to the term "girl". Sometimes it isn't offensive, and
sometimes it is.

A woman can say she is having lunch with the girls or with her
girlfriends and that's OK. But it isn't OK to say "Oh you girls don't
need to worry about that" plus depending on who says it, it's not
really reassuring either.

My sister's husband was really into sailing, and they had a boat and a
baby. She said that she took a sailing course so that she'd know
whether her husband was being appropriately safe because after they
did a trip down the bay (Annapolis to Solomons), she developed a
crashing tension headache. Her SIL who was traveling with them on a
similar boat said that the same thing had happened to her.

I think for men, the term 'boy' doesn't have the same connotations,
especially once you are past adolescence. And IME it isn't used as
much except for phrases like "boys night out".



grandma Rosalie