On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:14:06 -0400, Larry wrote:

"Rusty" wrote in
news
I've already done that. The 750 amp-hour 24 volt main system of Trojan
industrial cells is charged by a Trace SW4024 inverter/charger. Went
two years without HydroCaps and added at least some water every month.
Changed to HydroCaps and now I only add a little bit after every six
to eight months. Right now the last time I added water was almost nine
months ago and they're still full. Batteries are showing no signs of
losing capacity and the tops are always clean.

Rusty


While I'm sure the caps do exactly what they are supposed to, that's fine.
But, the reason the batteries are using water in the first place, i.e.
being overcharged, isn't resolved when you keep gassing off the water with
the overcharging, to recover it in these magicaps.

At your "full charge" voltage setting you should rarely see a bubble coming
out of the electrolyte. 14.2 seems too high on some cells. When the
specific gravity gets to 1.260-1.270, the charger should be OFF, not
pulsing away momentarily unless there is some load on them.

Larry, I've always enjoyed your posts and the knowledge you
clearly have. However, I think you need to study up on batteries
a little more.

Batteries will always loose some water, even without
overcharging. Rather, I should say batteries are always slightly
overcharged as a practical matter. If you charged below the
gassing voltage- say 13.8 volts, the amount of extra charging
time required to top-off the batteries is extreme. Charging at
say 14.5 volts (standard for solar charging) and letting them gas
a little shaves a heck of allot of time off the charging time-
thus the costs as well.

Controlled slight gassing is also good for the batteries as it
prevents the electrolyte for stratifying in the cells. Battery
manufactures recommend that the batteries are charged at voltages
that will do just this, when in cycled service. The only time
you don't want to charge above gassing voltage is batteries used
in float/standby service.

Hydrocaps also solve the problems of loosing water to evaporation
and the problem of losing the acid, thus weakening the
electrolyte. They also virtually eliminate dirty acid covered
and dirty battery tops.

Hydrocaps are expensive, but well worth the costs. Shop around,
as there can be a significant discount at some shops.

--
BRENT - The Usenet typo king.

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:40:20 GMT, Me wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:

Fk me crookid. I get T-105's for $60, maybe some pay $75. It is worth
it to spend more than a third more battery capacity or budget on
freaking caps, even if they happen to work perfectly (not according to
their own info), to avoid a few breif insepctions, top-ups & maybe
avoid carefully adjusting charging rate?

What is the life-cycle cost of your batteries?

For the cost of caps for only 2 banks, you can buy another whole new
bank that has 3x the stated service life of the caps.

If one did this sort of thing a few times with a vessel they were
tasked to responsibly manage for another owner, they'd be fired.

all this would be true, EXCEPT the HydroCaps aren't a "Wear item",
and once you buy a set they don't need to be replaced.

Actually they do eventually wear out. But if taken care of
(don't leave them on during equalizing charges!) they can last
through multiple battery sets.

--
BRENT - The Usenet typo king.

Me wrote:

all this would be true, EXCEPT the HydroCaps aren't a "Wear item",
and once you buy a set they don't need to be replaced.

The product's own information disagrees with you.

Brent Geery wrote:

Charging at
say 14.5 volts (standard for solar charging) and letting them gas
a little shaves a heck of allot of time off the charging time-
thus the costs as well.

It is unclear what costs saving accrue with solar charging.

Controlled slight gassing is also good for the batteries as it
prevents the electrolyte for stratifying in the cells. Battery
manufactures recommend that the batteries are charged at voltages
that will do just this, when in cycled service. The only time
you don't want to charge above gassing voltage is batteries used
in float/standby service.

True.

Hydrocaps also solve the problems of loosing water to evaporation
and the problem of losing the acid, thus weakening the
electrolyte.

Losing acid? Elaborate.

They also virtually eliminate dirty acid covered
and dirty battery tops.

Hydrocaps are expensive, but well worth the costs. Shop around,
as there can be a significant discount at some shops.

Surely a *significant* discount could alter the picture in terms of
eliminating periodic cleaning problems alone - an ongoing contamination
& labor item worth getting rid of. Yet Hydrocaps are not seen in
industrial banks, and one would reasonably expect competitive versions
of a simple platium catalyst vented & draining knob, yes?

(Brent Geery) wrote in
:


Larry, I've always enjoyed your posts and the knowledge you
clearly have. However, I think you need to study up on batteries
a little more.

Ok.....

Batteries will always loose some water, even without
overcharging. Rather, I should say batteries are always slightly
overcharged as a practical matter. If you charged below the
gassing voltage- say 13.8 volts, the amount of extra charging
time required to top-off the batteries is extreme. Charging at
say 14.5 volts (standard for solar charging) and letting them gas
a little shaves a heck of allot of time off the charging time-
thus the costs as well.

I never said they wouldn't. But sitting out in the yard are two L-16s in
the driver's footwell of my mobile electronics shop that don't sit at the
dock condo for months on overcharge. They work every day and have for over
2 years, now. There is a simple marine on-off 650A switch that parallels
them with the two AGM starting batteries for the 6.2L GM diesel engine, so
one alternator can charge everyone, another myth blown all to hell.

If you go check their temperature-compensated specific gravity, you'll find
all cells at 1.250-60, a full charge. They'll power the mobile DJ power
amps all night, no problem....loud! They are NOT charged by a constantly
switching on and off charger, 24/7/365, like the dock condo.

I have not checked the electrolyte in a "few months", but you'll find there
is more than enough to submerge all the plates, without expensive caps. I
water them with distilled I make for drinking about every 6 months. L16s
are big batteries. They will drink about 2 quarts in 6 months, and be
halfway between "full" and the top of the plates. As long as the plates
are submerged, batteries are fine.

Your premise of overcharging them to reduce the charging time it takes to
replenish them is simply not true. NONE of these house batteries can be
recharged in 2 hours at 200 amps....Battery chemistry doesn't work like
that, I'm sorry to say.


Controlled slight gassing is also good for the batteries as it
prevents the electrolyte for stratifying in the cells. Battery
manufactures recommend that the batteries are charged at voltages
that will do just this, when in cycled service. The only time
you don't want to charge above gassing voltage is batteries used
in float/standby service.

If your boat is a dock condo in a very quiet marina, I suppose you could
talk the electrolyte into stratifying. But, alas, on boats USED, as
they're supposed to be, I'd bet those 6' swells that beat my head against
the bulkhead while trying to stay seated on the head and hanging on for
dear life PROBABLY will prevent that from happening at 25 degrees of heel.
It prevents my stomach contents from 'stratifying' I'd like to report,
also! Dock condos don't even need batteries....do they?


Hydrocaps also solve the problems of loosing water to evaporation
and the problem of losing the acid, thus weakening the
electrolyte. They also virtually eliminate dirty acid covered
and dirty battery tops.

I never saw the acid "evaporate". I saw the water evaporate, but not the
acid. The "dirty acid covered" battery tops is from you filling the
battery up way to the top then gassing it with your 14.5 volt constant
overcharging! That's how your acid is escaping....

I never "fill" a battery I'm charging regularly to the mark. Halfway
between the plates and "full" is plenty, and allows for electrolyte
expansion from the heating and recovery of sulfuric acid from the dissolved
lead sulphate during the charging process. The top of the L16s sloshing
around in a wooden box in the stepvan shop is as clean as the new ones. Of
course, I don't heel as far because it would flip over...(c;


Hydrocaps are expensive, but well worth the costs. Shop around,
as there can be a significant discount at some shops.


Excellent. While researching Hydrocaps, I came upon an interesting solar
website with other technology discussing the differences in both. Read:
http://store.solar-electric.com/ba****miscap.html
This same vendor sells Hydrocaps for $10:
http://store.solar-electric.com/hydrocaps.html
The solar store also makes an interesting statement:

"Hydrocaps will not last forever, though - life will vary from 2 years to 8
years, depending on charge rates and how they are treated. If left on
during battery equalization, they can be quickly used up and/or ruined."

Notice how it also tells you about combining O2 and H2 recovering water,
but says nothing about what the effect of acid ingestion into the cap
causes. Hmm....What happens if I pour dilute sulphuric acid on platinum
muffler beads? Well, back to the lab...(c; Is there a Platinum sulphate?
Sound reasonable. Should be a stable salt.

--
Larry

wrote in
oups.com:

Yet Hydrocaps are not seen in
industrial banks, and one would reasonably expect competitive versions
of a simple platium catalyst vented & draining knob, yes?



Not seeing them on industrial trucks and forklifts to reduce maintenance is
also an interesting item to look into. Seems like every electric truck on
the planet should have such a wonderous device that is only $10 retail!

--
Larry

wrote in
oups.com:

k me crookid. I get T-105's for $60, maybe some pay $75. It is worth
it to spend more than a third more battery capacity or budget on
freaking caps, even if they happen to work perfectly (not according to
their own info), to avoid a few breif insepctions, top-ups & maybe
avoid carefully adjusting charging rate?


I found more interesting information. It seems that when you need the caps
the MOST, you're supposed to remove them to save them??!!

From website:
http://lists.samurai.com/pipermail/t...awlering/2004-
June/076584.html

"Thanks for the Battery Equalization & Hydrocaps post
of Wed, 2 Jun 2004

I was interested so I did some Internet research on
hydrocaps. All of the venders for Hydrocaps
(Hydro-Caps)that I found recommend that the caps be
removed during high levels of charging and battery
equalizing. High levels of charging/battery gassing
will result in the catylator in the cap being damaged
or prematurely worn out.

Limited use -- If I was recharging my golf cart
battery bank at 100+ amps, I would have to remove the
hydrocaps to prevent damaging them.

Since, the caps are designed for low charging rates,
wouldn't this severely limit their use."

I guess if you START THE 100A ALTERNATOR ON THE DIESEL on a dead house
battery, you may RUIN them?....WTF???

--
Larry

(Brent Geery) wrote in
:

Actually they do eventually wear out. But if taken care of
(don't leave them on during equalizing charges!) they can last
through multiple battery sets.



2-8 years....How many battery sets do you go through?!

--
Larry

Hi Larry,

I'm not going to get into a long debate about the value of
Hydrocaps. They work as advertised, and people can decide if
what Hydrocaps do is worth the cost. Al has been said on both
sides of the argument.

For those that can't justify the costs of Hydrocaps, *a least*
get yourself some "Water Miser" caps for your batteries. They
provide much of the value of Hydrocaps, are cheaper, and last
forever.

--
BRENT - The Usenet typo king.

Larry wrote:

The solar store also makes an interesting statement:

"Hydrocaps will not last forever, though - life will vary from 2 years to 8
years, depending on charge rates and how they are treated. If left on
during battery equalization, they can be quickly used up and/or ruined."

Notice how it also tells you about combining O2 and H2 recovering water,
but says nothing about what the effect of acid ingestion into the cap
causes.

The sales site I read did - it said if you slop electrolyte up into 'em
you'll puke 'em. These fans *have* to be talking about their dock
condos & fla****er party platforms, yes? Unless the catalyst got
pooped early on & the cap design happens to hold & recondense water
droplets better that other caps. When the batteries are kept too full,
by the way. ;-)

I can also attest that I once destroyed my shoreside house bank by
subjecting it to a nice/new/expensive/famous 24/7/365 4-stage autofloat
marine charger, these things float too high and programmed-stepping PWM
switching is NOT the be-all/end-all of battery care. It is only the
be-all of profits in the battery care product biz. IMHO & 40+yrsE the
best battery bank condition & longest life is only obtained by having
it owned or maintained by an intelligent, not-lazy person with a
hydrometer, distillate & ordinary charging equipment. And yes, people
have been parallel charging unequal banks for generations, do ya think?

But then, we just can't open up that whole can of worms with its costly
& arcane electronic monitoring panels to play with, and the
highly-analyzed system specs which are accurately approximate but
worshipped, right? It would be very unpopular, and the Model M Poppin'
Johnny also DOES drive much better with an ECM & emission controls
backfitted too, yes?

IMHO the true joke, is that the people have lost sight of where higher
technology is precious vs where it is unnecessary garbage that
subtracts from results & provides illusions.

"Honey, how many amp-hours are left (or lying to us again) on the Link
2000?"barf. :-)

- f.