"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of
autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind
vanes
still widely used?

BS


There is a great free online book here
http://www.windpilot.com/Grafiken/pdf/bookeng.pdf

Have sailed with a few of these and have nothing but praise for the
windpilot.

garry

Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of
autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes
still widely used?

BS

In "Robert or Karen Swarts" writes:

Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of
autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes
still widely used?

The electric autopilots and windvanes are a totally different kettle of
fish. Both steer the boat, but their best areaof application is a bit
different. A medium range autopilot can be bought by some 300 dollars or
Euros and a windvane will cost you about ten times as much. If you are a
coastal sailor and want to have the gear to relieve you from the helm
for some time, the autopilot is sufficient if the conditions are not
extreme. If you want to cross the ocean then I will advice you to buy a
good windvane. If you have a servo-pendulum windvane you will find out
that the harder it blows the better you trust it. Especially on a run in
big vaves and oskillating winds the windvane is superior to the
autopilot, unless you buy an autopilot to match the price of the
windvane.

The important difference is that the servo pendulum vindvane gets the
power to steer from the boat speed throught the water, the vane only
turns the angle of the servo blade and the faster you go, the stronger
is the steering movement. Most of the autopilots have a "single speed"
electric motor that is on or off and the speed of the steering action is
not related to the boat speed. That makes the feedback and the damping
of the movement very difficult.

There is a strong competition between the autopilot manufacturers and as
they are more or less related to some big electronic companies they can
invest lots of money to advertising and because most of the sailors are
coastal sailors they sell a lot of the equipment. On the other hand the
Windvane business is a handiceaft and small business, for example the
market leader German Windpilot is owned and run by one man. He has some
sophisticated computer steered engineering machinery, but the pilots are
done one by one and assembled by hand and they are sold more by from
"mouth to mouth" and "satisfied custores is the best add" principle you
do not hear about them if you do not move in the right circles.

Most people who have a windvane have an electronic pilot as well. They
use it while shorthanded hoistin sails or comin or leaving ports, but as
soon as they are at large, they will put the windvane on. The windvane
does not use any electricity and is absolutely silent. The autopilots
try to give you the impression that their power consuption is some 0.7
Amperes, but if you end up running in difficult conditions then they
will use some 4-6 Amperes, enough to dry many batteries used on todays
small craft.

I believe that the autopilot are sold in bigger quantities perhas some
ratio 100:1 or even 1000:1, but if you take some off shore sailors then
the ratio is 1:1 because they have both.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:17:14 -0700, "Robert or Karen Swarts"
wrote:

Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of
autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes
still widely used?

BS


No personal insights...Still, autopilots fail if overheated or close
to a lightning stroke.

Wind vanes fail from wearout and from wind gusts.
Wind vanes are prized by blue water cruisers by all accounts

Brian Whatcott

In Brian Whatcott writes:

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:17:14 -0700, "Robert or Karen Swarts"
wrote:

Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of
autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes
still widely used?

BS


No personal insights...Still, autopilots fail if overheated or close
to a lightning stroke.

Wind vanes fail from wearout and from wind gusts.
Wind vanes are prized by blue water cruisers by all accounts

I believe you do not have personal insights, there are two kinds of
windvanes, the cheapos and the proper ones like Windpilot, Monitor,
Aries and they last for some 20 years or double that. They are made from
good (expensive) materials by hand. By the way, if you look at the
detailed picture of Windpilot, you will find that it has about 100 parts
all nuts and washers counted.

Some 10 years ago some of the BOAC round the world single handed sailors
had up to 20 pieces of Autohelm pilots so they could just throw them
overboard at the rate they failed.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:

Some 10 years ago some of the BOAC round the world single handed
sailors had up to 20 pieces of Autohelm pilots so they could just throw
them overboard at the rate they failed.

I am not thinking of the BOC or anything like it, but I presently carry 3
tiller pilots on my 28 foot boat. Experience is my teacher, as I have had
up to 2 pilots fail during an extended cruise. This while having cracked
an important casting on the windvane and almost having to (drat!) actually
steer.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare

On 22 Jul 2005 18:12:13 GMT, (Lauri Tarkkonen)
wrote:


Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of
autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes
still widely used?

BS


No personal insights...Still, autopilots fail if overheated or close
to a lightning stroke.

Wind vanes fail from wearout and from wind gusts.
Wind vanes are prized by blue water cruisers by all accounts

I believe you do not have personal insights,
///
- Lauri Tarkkonen


Pretty astute, Lauri:
I disclose that I have no personal insights.

You respond that you believe I don't have personal insights.

Do you think that kind of comment qualifies you in some way?

I stand by my comments. Surely you cannot suppose
that wind vanes DON't wear out, or that they cannot be overwhelmed in
a storm gust?

:-)

Brian Whatcott

I think for distance passages, the windvane has no equal. My personal
feeling is the boat handles better and sails better with the vane,
because everything is relating to the wind. A big puff, the boat starts
to head up, the lines tighten, the vane straightens the boat out, the
electric auto pilot never quite as "in sync" to me.

The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the practice of some to take a
tiller pilot and mate it to the windvane servos so that a relatively
small auto pilot can handle a larger boat. I've read of people doing it,
I have no first hand experience with that set up.

I have an Autohelm 3000. It works fine, for keeping on course under
power and many points of sail, but I much prefer the vanes I sailed with
on other's boats, and I'll get one when I can justify it.

good luck.

Jonathan



Robert or Karen Swarts wrote:

Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of
autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind vanes
still widely used?

BS



--
I am building a Dudley Dix, Argie 10 for my daughter. Check it out:
http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr

On 22 Jul 2005 16:59:00 GMT, (Lauri Tarkkonen)
wrote:

In "Robert or Karen Swarts" writes:



- Lauri Tarkkonen

That was an excellent post, Lauri.

R.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in
:

Anyone care to discuss the relative reliability of
autopilots(electric/electronic) vs wind vanes for sail boats? Are wind
vanes still widely used?

BS


Lionheart, an Amel 41' ketch, is steered with a B&G Network Pilot electro-
hydraulic autopilot directly on the steering post under the aft cabin bed.
Its hydraulic cylinder is attached to the rudder post bellcrank with a
small ball joint, a miniature trailer hitch ball. Even if the entire
steering cable system fails (it looks like a heavy outboard flexible system
with dual enclosed flexcables), we can still steer the boat from the helm
or from the remote control box, providing there is DC power to run it. DC
power is two banks of L-16H 6V monsters. Power R' Us.

The only problem we've had with it is the chinzy way B&G attaches the
linear feedback sensor to the hydraulic cylinder, which comes loose
eventually and must be retightened and calibrated if you're not careful.
They buy this sensor from another manufacturer and don't seem to know how
to attach it to their cylinder, reliably.

As to operation, I have no trouble sleeping right on top of the running
hydraulic pump system, which only runs when the cylinder needs moving. You
can't hear it out of the aft cabin in the rest of the boat. From the
center cockpit, it's as if a ghost were at the helm...(c;

There are 3 modes....computer/chart plotter...or...its own compass
sensor...or...B&G Network Wind instrument on top of the mainmast, which
steers it on the wind like an extraordinary windvane would. All this is
selected from the Pilot's panel display, same size as the other B&G Network
sailing instruments in the helm's panel. It accepts NMEA0183 data very
well from our computer under The Cap'n nav software, either the RAymarine
RL70CRC radar/chart plotter, or the old Garmin 185 GPS/Chartplotter/Sonar
or from the Yeoman paper chart plotter's waypoints under our chart table
cover.

As with any autopilot, when the going gets rough, it's as useless as any of
them when it gets lost.....and you're left to steer by hand lock to lock
trying against hell to hold her on a course....with the wind sensor
spinning around crazy, the compass sensor being churned by being thrown
about and all the rudder in the world unable to steer the damned boat....

--
Larry