Rich Hampel wrote:
"On masthead boats, we susally sheet the genoa in until it just about

touches the spreaders."

Thats strange, I usually barber-haul most mastheaded boats or run a
second set of sheets INSIDE the rail to affect better pointing/speed
.... and usually place somewhere at the front of the fleet.

He's probably got a mainsail thats out of shape.

Naw, he's got the genny brakes on. A bag, a hook, too close in, too
slow, too low. Sometimes a smaller flatter inboard jib is just
plain faster to windward, as well as being far more comfortable. A
genny is a light air sail, not a moderate air sail.

Luffing, or a bubbly main luff, wants more outhaul, gooseneck down,
cunningham on, mainsheet in. If it softens occasionally, it is set
right. Everything is so relative. A study of butterfly flight
revealed their vortex generators generated low drag leading edge
turbulence, loosely coupled to the wings, which were very similar in
performance to a more shapely, heavier leading edge.

Keeping the boat upright means the keel doesn't slip so much. Once
it starts to carve, you don't need a lot of sail, or for that
matter, a lot of keel. Canted keels help.

A genny is an off the wind sail, unless it is able to go spanking
flat, close in to windward. It's silly to expect a light sail not
to stretch when abused. Sails should be cared for, as expensive
fuel costs. Decent sails, used decently can go ten years. Used by a
fool, the best can be ruined in one race, one gust.

Of course, I've never flown a new, super tech material sail.

That's one reason why we call cruising sailing nowhere special, at
economical speed. (Pocket Oxford) The economy of effort is also a
factor. A self tending jib is what makes a cruiser. Racing, or
aspiring to seem to be a racing type, is a different matter.

Excuse me, while I aspire to snobbery.

Agressive humility? Sure, why not? I got a lot to be humble about.


For tell-tales, etc. go to www.arvelgentry.com and read the 'magazine
articles' (archives from the 1970s) .... if you want to sail on the
'edge'.

In article .com, wrote:


Roger

Like the other posters said, a little back winding is nor porblem.

On masthead boats, we susally sheet the genoa in until it just about
touches the spreaders.

This is to avoid wearing a hole in the sail, it says nothing about
sail trim, except that you cannot sheet a large sail where you
might, were performance the only goal. -tk

Do you have a traveller for the main? If yes,
use it to position the boom at, or close to the center line of the boat
but don;t forget to make sure you've not stalled the sail.

This may be true, but for only one condition. If you are going to
windward and feel you should centre the boom, then you must have
some twist in it if it is to do any good at all, and the foot must
be stalled. If you need twist to depower the sail, you should be
seriously considering reefing something. Enough is enough, too much
excess power being used to balance too much excess power is not the
most economical approach to sail burn ratios. Let's hope it won't
shorten the life of steel wire and fiberglass, let alone aluminium
extrusions, stressed out crew, spilly bartenders, harrassed helmsmen
and navigator-tacticians. This is not cruising.

Terry K

A couple of
tell telas at the leech will really help here.

If you don't have a traveller, adjust the sail for th ecorrect shape,
ignore the remaining back winding and have another beverage

Cheers

Matt

Terry Spragg wrote:
Sails should be cared for, as expensive fuel costs.
Decent sails, used decently can go ten years. Used by a fool, the best
can be ruined in one race, one gust.

I'm quite happy to see how well my good old boat performs against some
of the larger, newer boats using mylar etc. A previous owner bagged out
the original Charlie Smith mainsail but I still use the original fairly
heavy weight 1966 Charlie Smith dacron working jib and along with a
repro dacron main, my little 28 footer will do over 8kts in 15-20kts of
breeze. Put a reef in at 25kts and she'll flirt with 10 kts.

Of course, I've never flown a new, super tech material sail.

I have been toying with the idea of a fully-battened main but dacron
still, but I'm not quite sure what more I'd get out of it but I am sure
I don't need mylar.

In article ,
prodigal1 wrote:
Terry Spragg wrote:
Sails should be cared for, as expensive fuel costs.
Decent sails, used decently can go ten years. Used by a fool, the best
can be ruined in one race, one gust.

I'm quite happy to see how well my good old boat performs against some
of the larger, newer boats using mylar etc. A previous owner bagged out
the original Charlie Smith mainsail but I still use the original fairly
heavy weight 1966 Charlie Smith dacron working jib and along with a
repro dacron main, my little 28 footer will do over 8kts in 15-20kts of
breeze. Put a reef in at 25kts and she'll flirt with 10 kts.

Ummm... isn't the hull speed 1.34x(sq.root of waterline)? So that
would be about 7 kts. Are you surfing or own a multi?

How did you arrive at the 8-10 kts?

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Ummm... isn't the hull speed 1.34x(sq.root of waterline)? So that
would be about 7 kts. Are you surfing or own a multi?

yes grasshopper, your math is correct and no I'm not surfing and no it's
not a multi

How did you arrive at the 8-10 kts?

well first we put up the main... sorry, couldn't resist
knotmeter, verified against gps, flat water on the windward shore, winds
25 gusting 35

There is some kind of voodoo involved in the design of this hull. The
older versions (like mine) of this hull design have a spoon entry, keel
longer than it is deep, with flattish, almost scow-like aft sections.
It's just friggin spooky how fast this thing can be. I can keep pace
with just about any cruising sailboat up to about 38'. Two years ago I
kept pace with a boat over a 22nm stretch going flat out downwind with
only the main wung out. He beat us into Killarney by about 1000m. It
was a 65' Hallberg-Rassy registered in Basel, Switzerland that was doing
the swee****er seas on its way around the world. The skipper of that
beautiful boat came over to see just what it was that he couldn't shake!

See fer yerself

http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh.../specside.html

the one pictured is the "newer" hull shape with a more upright entry and
a fuller aft section above the waterline. The shape below or the
profiles at the different stations are similar enough to be unchanged
from the earlier marques.

In article ,
prodigal1 wrote:
Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Ummm... isn't the hull speed 1.34x(sq.root of waterline)? So that
would be about 7 kts. Are you surfing or own a multi?

yes grasshopper, your math is correct and no I'm not surfing and no it's
not a multi

How did you arrive at the 8-10 kts?

well first we put up the main... sorry, couldn't resist
knotmeter, verified against gps, flat water on the windward shore, winds
25 gusting 35

Funny guy... :-) Well, I was just trying to figure out how you
circumvented the laws of physics.

Looks like a great boat.

See fer yerself

http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh.../specside.html

Maybe it's the skipper...


--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

Lots of food for thought here. I find the idea of ruining the shape
of my genny in one day troubling. It's a roller furling sail with
foam leading edge and weather cloth leach. It feels to be about as
heavy as the main so I think it's a cruising sail intended to take a
good deal of abuse.

I don't actually carry it touching the spreaders. That's where I
crank it to while headed up a bit to ease the grinding. By the time
full power is developed, it's a good six inches off the spreaders. (I
need new sheets next year.)

I'm not a hard driver either, you get to windward a lot faster
identifying the optimum heel angle and then just steering to maintain
that when the boat is overpowered and you can't make a sail reduction.
I have intentionally driven the boat down to learn how she will handle
in sudden or unexpected gusts but I don't make a practice of it.

This is certainly not the rig I would have chosen but it came with the
hull and interior I wanted. I hope to rework it someday. Maybe I've
got too much time in more traditional boats but I'm amazed how fast
this shoal draft boat with its not-too-efficient keel goes and points.

The boat is a joy with the working jib. I'd probably sail with it a
lot if it were not for the hassle of making changes with the roller
furling. Leaving it up without the weather cloths on the leach would
shorten its life more than I want. One of the first items on my
Christmas list is one of those hoisting covers so I can leave the
smaller sail up during periods I expect brisk winds. Second is an
asymmetrical spinnaker so I don't need the area of the genoa off the
wind.

If someone came along and offered to trade my roller furling rig for a
set of hank sails, I would seriously consider it now that I've sailed
with the roller for a few weeks.

--

Roger Long



"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...
Rich Hampel wrote:
"On masthead boats, we susally sheet the genoa in until it just
about

touches the spreaders."

Thats strange, I usually barber-haul most mastheaded boats or run a
second set of sheets INSIDE the rail to affect better
pointing/speed
.... and usually place somewhere at the front of the fleet. He's
probably got a mainsail thats out of shape.

Naw, he's got the genny brakes on. A bag, a hook, too close in, too
slow, too low. Sometimes a smaller flatter inboard jib is just
plain faster to windward, as well as being far more comfortable. A
genny is a light air sail, not a moderate air sail.

Luffing, or a bubbly main luff, wants more outhaul, gooseneck down,
cunningham on, mainsheet in. If it softens occasionally, it is set
right. Everything is so relative. A study of butterfly flight
revealed their vortex generators generated low drag leading edge
turbulence, loosely coupled to the wings, which were very similar in
performance to a more shapely, heavier leading edge.

Keeping the boat upright means the keel doesn't slip so much. Once
it starts to carve, you don't need a lot of sail, or for that
matter, a lot of keel. Canted keels help.

A genny is an off the wind sail, unless it is able to go spanking
flat, close in to windward. It's silly to expect a light sail not
to stretch when abused. Sails should be cared for, as expensive
fuel costs. Decent sails, used decently can go ten years. Used by a
fool, the best can be ruined in one race, one gust.

Of course, I've never flown a new, super tech material sail.

That's one reason why we call cruising sailing nowhere special, at
economical speed. (Pocket Oxford) The economy of effort is also a
factor. A self tending jib is what makes a cruiser. Racing, or
aspiring to seem to be a racing type, is a different matter.

Excuse me, while I aspire to snobbery.

Agressive humility? Sure, why not? I got a lot to be humble about.


For tell-tales, etc. go to www.arvelgentry.com and read the
'magazine
articles' (archives from the 1970s) .... if you want to sail on the
'edge'.
In article .com,
wrote:


Roger

Like the other posters said, a little back winding is nor porblem.

On masthead boats, we susally sheet the genoa in until it just
about
touches the spreaders.

This is to avoid wearing a hole in the sail, it says nothing about
sail trim, except that you cannot sheet a large sail where you
might, were performance the only goal. -tk

Do you have a traveller for the main? If yes,
use it to position the boom at, or close to the center line of the
boat
but don;t forget to make sure you've not stalled the sail.

This may be true, but for only one condition. If you are going to
windward and feel you should centre the boom, then you must have
some twist in it if it is to do any good at all, and the foot must
be stalled. If you need twist to depower the sail, you should be
seriously considering reefing something. Enough is enough, too much
excess power being used to balance too much excess power is not the
most economical approach to sail burn ratios. Let's hope it won't
shorten the life of steel wire and fiberglass, let alone aluminium
extrusions, stressed out crew, spilly bartenders, harrassed helmsmen
and navigator-tacticians. This is not cruising.

Terry K

A couple of
tell telas at the leech will really help here.

If you don't have a traveller, adjust the sail for th ecorrect
shape,
ignore the remaining back winding and have another beverage

Cheers

Matt