In "Roger Long" writes:

If you knew exactly what was going on inside those splices, the know
wouldn't look so unreliable. It's all just friction. If you are
letting your halyards flog around enough that there is any risk of a
knot like that getting loose, you are doing something wrong.

The splice looks neater and more techie. It has a micro amount less
windage in a place that doesn't matter. Most important, it makes
twenty bucks for the marine store every time someone asks for one.
Then another twenty when they want to move the wear point or a whole
new halyard if the don't. Good deal for them.

I do not understand why you must pay for the splice. There are lots of
good books and web-pages where they teach you to make one. Of course it
takes some practice, but after you learn it, you can use your skill for
the rest of your life, or as longa as your fingers hold.

If the deal is so good fot them, then you have a business after you
learn how to do it. :-).

If you ever have to go up the mast and snag a run away halyard with a
boathook, you'll be glad of that knot. The splice taper would have
jambed in the sheave while the weight of the knot and the clean stop
will let it come back easily.

I do not think so if you have rope sheaves and your sheave box is of the
proper size. The splice (properly done) is tapered and you can use a
small plastic "ball" above the shackle so that you do not pull it in the
sheave box. A properly done splice is in no way inferior to a knot and a
proper not will hold. The main difference is of course in the appearance
and the splice is in the traditional sense more seamanlike.

I never heard of that knot but it's a great one and designed to be
used on that probably flogged and flapped around more than any others.

So far the only real argument for the not against the splice is the
price. You can get some free tuition in making splices at most big
boatshows, as the makers of the ropes have demonstrations how the
splices are made.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Agreed. Brian Toss's video on splicing double braid is a great investment.
With a little practice you can put a very neat splice in even really hard
stuff like T-900.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Believe me, the stunsail tackbend is the "proper" knot for this
application, not the bowline.

Try it out on something less critical. You'll see that once cinched
down there is no way that it can come loose. Untying is a bit of a
pain, but it can be done.

BTW, the other name for the stunsail tackbend is the buntline hitch;
you'll find more references under that name. The sailnet article in
particular debunks the myth of the bowline as the ultimate knot.

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/buntlinehitch.html
http://www.scoutingresources.org.uk/...sbuntline.html
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/l...leID=rousma017



Denis Marier wrote:
I have to replace my main and jib halyard. My old one have the shackles
threaded to a nice spliced loop. It looks very nice. As for the new
halyards, I am not skillful at splicing and I thinking of using a knot to
install the shackles. At first I was thinking of using the bowline. After
reading your reply I am considering the stunsail knot. I am apprehensive
that if one day the knot gets loose and the halyard gets out of the mast it
will be a tenuous job to run the halyard inside the mast.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Denis Marier wrote:

This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot.
I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more

comfortable

with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the

stunsail

the bowline is more secure.
Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more.

You should definitely use the knots you're comfortable with. The most
important thing about any knot is its predictability. This is why my
wife's knot tying scares me - her bowlines seems to come out different
every time!

I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a
bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not
well finished. Also, when used on a halyard, whether to a shackle or
directly to the head, a small loop will be left - this can prevent the
sail from be hoisted all the way. In addition, whenever a bowline is
tied on a small object, like a shackle or headboard, it will suffer
chafe because it is free to move around. A proper end hitch, like the
stunsail tackbend or anchor bend is better for this type of attachment.

I've used the stunsail tackbend as one of my primary knots for 40
years now, along with a bowline, tautline, and figure eight (and lots
more - I was a knot geek before I learned to sail!) and I've never
known one to fail, whether on small line or large.

My new boat came with four nice fenders with whips spliced directly
on. The morning after the first night of the delivery home (on the
Erie Canal) one was missing because the splice had slipped loose. On
inspection, another was ready to go. Clearly the splicing task had
been given to "the new guy" and nobody double checked. I replaced
most of the splices on the boat with knots. The halyards had been
tied with bowlines - they had been changed before I raised the sails
the first time!

If you must splice onto something like a fender, its better to first
splice a eye, then pass the eye through the hole, and pass the bitter
end through the eye. This will put more tension on the rope itself,
and not on the splice.



Roger Long wrote:
If you knew exactly what was going on inside those splices, the know
wouldn't look so unreliable. It's all just friction. If you are
letting your halyards flog around enough that there is any risk of a
knot like that getting loose, you are doing something wrong.

The splice looks neater and more techie. It has a micro amount less
windage in a place that doesn't matter. Most important, it makes
twenty bucks for the marine store every time someone asks for one.
Then another twenty when they want to move the wear point or a whole
new halyard if the don't. Good deal for them.

If you ever have to go up the mast and snag a run away halyard with a
boathook, you'll be glad of that knot. The splice taper would have
jambed in the sheave while the weight of the knot and the clean stop
will let it come back easily.

I never heard of that knot but it's a great one and designed to be
used on that probably flogged and flapped around more than any others.

Splicing these newer high tech ropes is not something I want to learn
for a critical application in the couple of days before the mast has
to go up.

--

Roger Long

I have learned a lot in as few hours.
Chapman book refers to the stunsail as the buntline hitch as you have
already mentioned.
It says that it is an excellent knot for fastening a halyard to a shackle
and it won't jam in a block as an eye splice might. I am already sold on
the stunsail/buntline knot for fastening my shackles. However I am musing
about using waxed tread to secure the bitter end of the knot. This may
re-enforced my warm feeling? At time, when hit by heavy squalls I have to
empty the sails and the quickest way is to let go the sheets. On the other
hand the halyards will still be on the top not flapping a great deal.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Believe me, the stunsail tackbend is the "proper" knot for this
application, not the bowline.

Try it out on something less critical. You'll see that once cinched
down there is no way that it can come loose. Untying is a bit of a
pain, but it can be done.

BTW, the other name for the stunsail tackbend is the buntline hitch;
you'll find more references under that name. The sailnet article in
particular debunks the myth of the bowline as the ultimate knot.

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/buntlinehitch.html
http://www.scoutingresources.org.uk/...sbuntline.html

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/l...leID=rousma017



Denis Marier wrote:
I have to replace my main and jib halyard. My old one have the shackles
threaded to a nice spliced loop. It looks very nice. As for the new
halyards, I am not skillful at splicing and I thinking of using a knot
to
install the shackles. At first I was thinking of using the bowline.
After
reading your reply I am considering the stunsail knot. I am
apprehensive
that if one day the knot gets loose and the halyard gets out of the mast
it
will be a tenuous job to run the halyard inside the mast.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Denis Marier wrote:

This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot.
I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more

comfortable

with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the

stunsail

the bowline is more secure.
Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more.

You should definitely use the knots you're comfortable with. The most
important thing about any knot is its predictability. This is why my
wife's knot tying scares me - her bowlines seems to come out different
every time!

I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a
bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not
well finished. Also, when used on a halyard, whether to a shackle or
directly to the head, a small loop will be left - this can prevent the
sail from be hoisted all the way. In addition, whenever a bowline is
tied on a small object, like a shackle or headboard, it will suffer
chafe because it is free to move around. A proper end hitch, like the
stunsail tackbend or anchor bend is better for this type of attachment.

I've used the stunsail tackbend as one of my primary knots for 40
years now, along with a bowline, tautline, and figure eight (and lots
more - I was a knot geek before I learned to sail!) and I've never
known one to fail, whether on small line or large.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:34:57 -0400, Jeff said:

I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a
bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not
well finished.

Yes. I've had that happen several times when used on the jib sheets.

I've never had a bowline come apart if I've finished it properly. The secret
is to have a small loop and a longish bitter end. The only time I had one
even come close to coming undone on its own was when a jib was flogging in
light air.

It's also easy to tie one-handed bowlines, which is a huge advantage if
you're in the water and need to secure yourself to the boat in a hurry. It
doesn't tighten and won't come loose.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

What would you like in lieu of a bowline that can make you feel more
comfortable.
I never had a bowline knot coming apart on it owns yet. I can not make the
same statement concerning the stunsail tackbend I have never used it. Today
may be a good day to start using the stunsail. I'll know at the end of the
summer if I like it or not.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:34:57 -0400, Jeff said:

I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a
bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not
well finished.

Yes. I've had that happen several times when used on the jib sheets.