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Halyard advice appreciated
I finally unwrapped the mast for "Strider". The standing rigging is in
great shape due to the fresh water but all the running stuff is junk after six years just hanging in the elements. I knee jerked to trying to get another wire / rope halyard and then started really kicking myself when everyone I called said, "Week to ten days. It's that time of year." Then I called Hallett in Falmouth ME who took plenty of time to talk with me and acted like the wanted my business. That always makes me more inclined to give someone my money. They said to ditch the wire/rope and go with the new low stretch ropes if the sheaves weren't too chewed up. The owner's association for our E32 reports that the sheaves are suitable for either wire or all rope. I got the masthead box out and, sure enough, there is just a hint of a wire groove. The sheaves are in pretty good shape but I'm going to chuck them in a drill and polish them up. Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. I'd appreciate any halyard opinions or experience while I mull this over the weekend. It's a pretty standard masthead rig with roller furling. We won't be racing, just easy cruising. -- Roger Long |
"Roger Long" wrote in message
... I finally unwrapped the mast for "Strider". The standing rigging is in great shape due to the fresh water but all the running stuff is junk after six years just hanging in the elements. I knee jerked to trying to get another wire / rope halyard and then started really kicking myself when everyone I called said, "Week to ten days. It's that time of year." Then I called Hallett in Falmouth ME who took plenty of time to talk with me and acted like the wanted my business. That always makes me more inclined to give someone my money. They said to ditch the wire/rope and go with the new low stretch ropes if the sheaves weren't too chewed up. The owner's association for our E32 reports that the sheaves are suitable for either wire or all rope. I got the masthead box out and, sure enough, there is just a hint of a wire groove. The sheaves are in pretty good shape but I'm going to chuck them in a drill and polish them up. Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. I'd appreciate any halyard opinions or experience while I mull this over the weekend. It's a pretty standard masthead rig with roller furling. We won't be racing, just easy cruising. -- Roger Long Forget the wire/rope combo. The new non-stretch stuff is far superior. Go for the good stuff. It's worth the extra cost (disclaimer... knowing nothing about the supposed differences they're speaking of). I made the choice to go to spectra and it was worth it. I had to change the sheaves, however. You should double check this, as it's critical to maintaining normal wear on the halyards. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Roger Long wrote:
I finally unwrapped the mast for "Strider". The standing rigging is in great shape due to the fresh water but all the running stuff is junk after six years just hanging in the elements. I knee jerked to trying to get another wire / rope halyard and then started really kicking myself when everyone I called said, "Week to ten days. It's that time of year." Then I called Hallett in Falmouth ME who took plenty of time to talk with me and acted like the wanted my business. That always makes me more inclined to give someone my money. They said to ditch the wire/rope and go with the new low stretch ropes if the sheaves weren't too chewed up. The owner's association for our E32 reports that the sheaves are suitable for either wire or all rope. I got the masthead box out and, sure enough, there is just a hint of a wire groove. The sheaves are in pretty good shape but I'm going to chuck them in a drill and polish them up. Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. I'd appreciate any halyard opinions or experience while I mull this over the weekend. It's a pretty standard masthead rig with roller furling. We won't be racing, just easy cruising. Don't waste money on the high tech low stretch stuff. Obviously, you don't want nylon, but StaSet X is good enough for cruising. Actually regular StaSet is good enough, but you might as well spend the extra $10 so you'll only have one inch of stretch instead of two. Within 5 minutes you'll be convinced that wire halyards are history. |
In "JG" writes:
"Roger Long" wrote in message .. . I finally unwrapped the mast for "Strider". The standing rigging is in great shape due to the fresh water but all the running stuff is junk after six years just hanging in the elements. I knee jerked to trying to get another wire / rope halyard and then started really kicking myself when everyone I called said, "Week to ten days. It's that time of year." Then I called Hallett in Falmouth ME who took plenty of time to talk with me and acted like the wanted my business. That always makes me more inclined to give someone my money. They said to ditch the wire/rope and go with the new low stretch ropes if the sheaves weren't too chewed up. The owner's association for our E32 reports that the sheaves are suitable for either wire or all rope. I got the masthead box out and, sure enough, there is just a hint of a wire groove. The sheaves are in pretty good shape but I'm going to chuck them in a drill and polish them up. Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. I'd appreciate any halyard opinions or experience while I mull this over the weekend. It's a pretty standard masthead rig with roller furling. We won't be racing, just easy cruising. -- Roger Long Forget the wire/rope combo. The new non-stretch stuff is far superior. Go for the good stuff. It's worth the extra cost (disclaimer... knowing nothing about the supposed differences they're speaking of). I made the choice to go to spectra and it was worth it. I had to change the sheaves, however. You should double check this, as it's critical to maintaining normal wear on the halyards. If you decide to go with the all rope (I think it is a good decission) I would suggest that you buy some 3 to 5 feet extra. Then you can cut a piece of the end (two or three times) so that you move the position where the hallyard is worn most by the sheaves and the clutches. Then you can use them for more years. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:31:46 -0700, "JG" wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in message .. . I finally unwrapped the mast for "Strider". The standing rigging is in great shape due to the fresh water but all the running stuff is junk after six years just hanging in the elements. I knee jerked to trying to get another wire / rope halyard and then started really kicking myself when everyone I called said, "Week to ten days. It's that time of year." Then I called Hallett in Falmouth ME who took plenty of time to talk with me and acted like the wanted my business. That always makes me more inclined to give someone my money. They said to ditch the wire/rope and go with the new low stretch ropes if the sheaves weren't too chewed up. The owner's association for our E32 reports that the sheaves are suitable for either wire or all rope. I got the masthead box out and, sure enough, there is just a hint of a wire groove. The sheaves are in pretty good shape but I'm going to chuck them in a drill and polish them up. Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. I'd appreciate any halyard opinions or experience while I mull this over the weekend. It's a pretty standard masthead rig with roller furling. We won't be racing, just easy cruising. -- Roger Long Forget the wire/rope combo. The new non-stretch stuff is far superior. Go for the good stuff. It's worth the extra cost (disclaimer... knowing nothing about the supposed differences they're speaking of). I made the choice to go to spectra and it was worth it. I had to change the sheaves, however. You should double check this, as it's critical to maintaining normal wear on the halyards. Where did you get the new sheaves? I'm not yet sure if I'll need new ones, (changing from wire/rope to all rope), but if I do, I'd like to have a ready source. Thanks, Norm B |
$300, holy sh**, are these gold or something? Low stretch dacron is
all you need. |
"Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message
... In "JG" writes: "Roger Long" wrote in message . .. I finally unwrapped the mast for "Strider". The standing rigging is in great shape due to the fresh water but all the running stuff is junk after six years just hanging in the elements. I knee jerked to trying to get another wire / rope halyard and then started really kicking myself when everyone I called said, "Week to ten days. It's that time of year." Then I called Hallett in Falmouth ME who took plenty of time to talk with me and acted like the wanted my business. That always makes me more inclined to give someone my money. They said to ditch the wire/rope and go with the new low stretch ropes if the sheaves weren't too chewed up. The owner's association for our E32 reports that the sheaves are suitable for either wire or all rope. I got the masthead box out and, sure enough, there is just a hint of a wire groove. The sheaves are in pretty good shape but I'm going to chuck them in a drill and polish them up. Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. I'd appreciate any halyard opinions or experience while I mull this over the weekend. It's a pretty standard masthead rig with roller furling. We won't be racing, just easy cruising. -- Roger Long Forget the wire/rope combo. The new non-stretch stuff is far superior. Go for the good stuff. It's worth the extra cost (disclaimer... knowing nothing about the supposed differences they're speaking of). I made the choice to go to spectra and it was worth it. I had to change the sheaves, however. You should double check this, as it's critical to maintaining normal wear on the halyards. If you decide to go with the all rope (I think it is a good decission) I would suggest that you buy some 3 to 5 feet extra. Then you can cut a piece of the end (two or three times) so that you move the position where the hallyard is worn most by the sheaves and the clutches. Then you can use them for more years. - Lauri Tarkkonen Excellent thought. I did that also, but sold the boat before it got to that. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
"engsol" wrote in message
... On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:31:46 -0700, "JG" wrote: "Roger Long" wrote in message . .. I finally unwrapped the mast for "Strider". The standing rigging is in great shape due to the fresh water but all the running stuff is junk after six years just hanging in the elements. I knee jerked to trying to get another wire / rope halyard and then started really kicking myself when everyone I called said, "Week to ten days. It's that time of year." Then I called Hallett in Falmouth ME who took plenty of time to talk with me and acted like the wanted my business. That always makes me more inclined to give someone my money. They said to ditch the wire/rope and go with the new low stretch ropes if the sheaves weren't too chewed up. The owner's association for our E32 reports that the sheaves are suitable for either wire or all rope. I got the masthead box out and, sure enough, there is just a hint of a wire groove. The sheaves are in pretty good shape but I'm going to chuck them in a drill and polish them up. Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. I'd appreciate any halyard opinions or experience while I mull this over the weekend. It's a pretty standard masthead rig with roller furling. We won't be racing, just easy cruising. -- Roger Long Forget the wire/rope combo. The new non-stretch stuff is far superior. Go for the good stuff. It's worth the extra cost (disclaimer... knowing nothing about the supposed differences they're speaking of). I made the choice to go to spectra and it was worth it. I had to change the sheaves, however. You should double check this, as it's critical to maintaining normal wear on the halyards. Where did you get the new sheaves? I'm not yet sure if I'll need new ones, (changing from wire/rope to all rope), but if I do, I'd like to have a ready source. Thanks, Norm B Norm, I got mine from a guy who specialized in my particular boat. I don't know where he got them. I believe WM has them, but not sure of sizes, etc. The guy I got them from had the older type.. forget the name of material, but he said they were better than the newer ones. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Do you think these sheaves will work?
http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Sheaves.jpg I made an arbor, chucked them in an electric drill, and went at them with progressively finer grits of sandpaper. The pits feel much less alarming than they look and you can't even feel them with a finger. The sheaves are so smooth, I think they would work even if non-turning. I also radiuses and smoothed all the contact edges on the box. I moved the sheave that had no wire marks (never used for anything on this boat) to the main halyard position since that is the one that will see the most rope movement. -- Roger Long |
Roger Long wrote:
.... Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. .... A few more thoughts - a reason for the high tech stuff is to reduce size and weight. For cruising however, you want the thickest, easiest to handle line that will fit the sheave, winch and other fittings. And for some reason, people like to splice on the halyard shackle and then wonder why it resists going up the last few inches. Much better to use a stunsail tackbend, which is very secure, only takes an inch so it won't jam in the sheave, and can be removed when its time to "end for end" the rope. http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/P...mainsheet.html |
Say, that's the best idea of this young day. The splices are the big
time hold up and are expensive in fancy rope. I was thinking (well assuming which is not at all the same thing) that the splice was necessary for clearance. I forgot about the thicker tail. According to the tests in the West Catalog, 3/8 Sta-Set has 1.5% elongation at $1.01 per foot and XLS Extra .75% at $1.76. After that, prices skyrocket for minimal stretch gains. If we go with 1/2" Sta-Set at $1.23 a foot, we should have the same stretch as the more expensive line (based on cross section area), easier hoisting, and cheaper. We'll never notice the extra weight and windage in our cruising. -- Roger Long "Jeff" wrote in message ... Roger Long wrote: ... Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. ... A few more thoughts - a reason for the high tech stuff is to reduce size and weight. For cruising however, you want the thickest, easiest to handle line that will fit the sheave, winch and other fittings. And for some reason, people like to splice on the halyard shackle and then wonder why it resists going up the last few inches. Much better to use a stunsail tackbend, which is very secure, only takes an inch so it won't jam in the sheave, and can be removed when its time to "end for end" the rope. http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/P...mainsheet.html |
Roger Long wrote:
Say, that's the best idea of this young day. Glad to be of help. The splices are the big time hold up and are expensive in fancy rope. I was thinking (well assuming which is not at all the same thing) that the splice was necessary for clearance. I forgot about the thicker tail. Remember to get a shackle the "captures" the halyard. According to the tests in the West Catalog, 3/8 Sta-Set has 1.5% elongation at $1.01 per foot and XLS Extra .75% at $1.76. After that, prices skyrocket for minimal stretch gains. The stretch is measured at 15% of the breaking strength. Since XLS is not as strong as Sta-Set X, the difference is actually pretty small. I've wondered what the actual "incremental load" on the halyard is. When hoisting, its only a few hundred pounds that tensions the line and that will pull a few inches of stretch. When a gust hits, I assume most of the load is taken along the luff, not by the halyard, so the incremental load might be well under 100 pounds. In that case, we're talking about a stretch that's under an inch, not enough to concern a cruiser. If we go with 1/2" Sta-Set at $1.23 a foot, we should have the same stretch as the more expensive line (based on cross section area), easier hoisting, and cheaper. We'll never notice the extra weight and windage in our cruising. And you can tell them at the bar that you got the super expensive "easy hand" rope, rather than that cheap spectra stuff. |
The stunsail tackbend looks a lot like a clove hitch.
Different knot, same name - or is it a different knot? Thanks, Mike. |
On 11 Jun 2005 15:10:16 -0700, "beaufortnc"
wrote: The stunsail tackbend looks a lot like a clove hitch. Different knot, same name - or is it a different knot? Thanks, Mike. As you can see from this representation, the knot is made the same way as a clove hitch. http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/PE/sailing/sailing_knot_mainsheet.html Brian Whatcott Altus, OK |
This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot.
I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more comfortable with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the stunsail the bowline is more secure. Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more. "Brian Whatcott" wrote in message ... On 11 Jun 2005 15:10:16 -0700, "beaufortnc" wrote: The stunsail tackbend looks a lot like a clove hitch. http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/PE/sailing/ This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot. Different knot, same name - or is it a different knot? Thanks, Mike. As you can see from this representation, the knot is made the same way as a clove hitch. http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/PE/sailing/sailing_knot_mainsheet.html Brian Whatcott Altus, OK |
beaufortnc wrote:
The stunsail tackbend looks a lot like a clove hitch. Different knot, same name - or is it a different knot? Thanks, Mike. Yes, it is a clove hitch. However, usually when a clove is used to form a loop, it is usually called "two half hitches" and the second hitch is tied outside of the first. On the stunsail tackbend, the second hitch is inside the first, so when its tightened, it is bound in securely. In addition to this binding property, it also can be tightened up remotely since it will slide up the line until the loop is reduced. I've been told that this property was used in setting a stunsail (the extra sail to the side a the main course on a ship), and hence the name. The stunsail is a bit counter-intuitive - anyone trying it will do two halfhitches instead. It takes a special effort to put the hitches in the correct order. |
Denis Marier wrote:
This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot. I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more comfortable with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the stunsail the bowline is more secure. Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more. You should definitely use the knots you're comfortable with. The most important thing about any knot is its predictability. This is why my wife's knot tying scares me - her bowlines seems to come out different every time! I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not well finished. Also, when used on a halyard, whether to a shackle or directly to the head, a small loop will be left - this can prevent the sail from be hoisted all the way. In addition, whenever a bowline is tied on a small object, like a shackle or headboard, it will suffer chafe because it is free to move around. A proper end hitch, like the stunsail tackbend or anchor bend is better for this type of attachment. I've used the stunsail tackbend as one of my primary knots for 40 years now, along with a bowline, tautline, and figure eight (and lots more - I was a knot geek before I learned to sail!) and I've never known one to fail, whether on small line or large. |
To get a good idea of the line types available, the usage, and trade offs,
(re recreational boating) you should check out one manufacturers sites such as http://www.samsonrope.com/home/newindex.cfm You will also find their splicing instructions for each type of line, as well as notes on tying knots in this high end lines as these lines are slippery. You will find that the recommendations you have been given are validated there. find some local marine dealers on the web and check the pricing between the line types.(eg West) When you see the price differential you will choose a more conventional line, where the prime concerns are strenght, and low streach, and not weight. If you do buy "no name" line, make sure it has UV protection - the main brands do. Personally, I have long been a fan of good line and good knots, but there are circumstances when only a splice will do. There is another that I don't believe was mentioned, and that is increased safety, some being: - no wire barbs as it ages and fatigues. - wire moving fast thru a hand or over a body part will likely cut by the time it is felt , whereas line will produce a rope burn. Other: you mentioned rope-wire splices. You should also inspect the haylard winch barrels for any burring from taking wire wraps. If any were full wire halyards, the winches would be the take up spool type, and need to be replaced when going to line. Matt "Roger Long" wrote in message ... I finally unwrapped the mast for "Strider". The standing rigging is in great shape due to the fresh water but all the running stuff is junk after six years just hanging in the elements. I knee jerked to trying to get another wire / rope halyard and then started really kicking myself when everyone I called said, "Week to ten days. It's that time of year." Then I called Hallett in Falmouth ME who took plenty of time to talk with me and acted like the wanted my business. That always makes me more inclined to give someone my money. They said to ditch the wire/rope and go with the new low stretch ropes if the sheaves weren't too chewed up. The owner's association for our E32 reports that the sheaves are suitable for either wire or all rope. I got the masthead box out and, sure enough, there is just a hint of a wire groove. The sheaves are in pretty good shape but I'm going to chuck them in a drill and polish them up. Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged in time for the weekend. I'd appreciate any halyard opinions or experience while I mull this over the weekend. It's a pretty standard masthead rig with roller furling. We won't be racing, just easy cruising. -- Roger Long |
I have to replace my main and jib halyard. My old one have the shackles
threaded to a nice spliced loop. It looks very nice. As for the new halyards, I am not skillful at splicing and I thinking of using a knot to install the shackles. At first I was thinking of using the bowline. After reading your reply I am considering the stunsail knot. I am apprehensive that if one day the knot gets loose and the halyard gets out of the mast it will be a tenuous job to run the halyard inside the mast. "Jeff" wrote in message ... Denis Marier wrote: This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot. I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more comfortable with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the stunsail the bowline is more secure. Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more. You should definitely use the knots you're comfortable with. The most important thing about any knot is its predictability. This is why my wife's knot tying scares me - her bowlines seems to come out different every time! I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not well finished. Also, when used on a halyard, whether to a shackle or directly to the head, a small loop will be left - this can prevent the sail from be hoisted all the way. In addition, whenever a bowline is tied on a small object, like a shackle or headboard, it will suffer chafe because it is free to move around. A proper end hitch, like the stunsail tackbend or anchor bend is better for this type of attachment. I've used the stunsail tackbend as one of my primary knots for 40 years now, along with a bowline, tautline, and figure eight (and lots more - I was a knot geek before I learned to sail!) and I've never known one to fail, whether on small line or large. |
If you knew exactly what was going on inside those splices, the know
wouldn't look so unreliable. It's all just friction. If you are letting your halyards flog around enough that there is any risk of a knot like that getting loose, you are doing something wrong. The splice looks neater and more techie. It has a micro amount less windage in a place that doesn't matter. Most important, it makes twenty bucks for the marine store every time someone asks for one. Then another twenty when they want to move the wear point or a whole new halyard if the don't. Good deal for them. If you ever have to go up the mast and snag a run away halyard with a boathook, you'll be glad of that knot. The splice taper would have jambed in the sheave while the weight of the knot and the clean stop will let it come back easily. I never heard of that knot but it's a great one and designed to be used on that probably flogged and flapped around more than any others. -- Roger Long |
In "Roger Long" writes:
If you knew exactly what was going on inside those splices, the know wouldn't look so unreliable. It's all just friction. If you are letting your halyards flog around enough that there is any risk of a knot like that getting loose, you are doing something wrong. The splice looks neater and more techie. It has a micro amount less windage in a place that doesn't matter. Most important, it makes twenty bucks for the marine store every time someone asks for one. Then another twenty when they want to move the wear point or a whole new halyard if the don't. Good deal for them. I do not understand why you must pay for the splice. There are lots of good books and web-pages where they teach you to make one. Of course it takes some practice, but after you learn it, you can use your skill for the rest of your life, or as longa as your fingers hold. If the deal is so good fot them, then you have a business after you learn how to do it. :-). If you ever have to go up the mast and snag a run away halyard with a boathook, you'll be glad of that knot. The splice taper would have jambed in the sheave while the weight of the knot and the clean stop will let it come back easily. I do not think so if you have rope sheaves and your sheave box is of the proper size. The splice (properly done) is tapered and you can use a small plastic "ball" above the shackle so that you do not pull it in the sheave box. A properly done splice is in no way inferior to a knot and a proper not will hold. The main difference is of course in the appearance and the splice is in the traditional sense more seamanlike. I never heard of that knot but it's a great one and designed to be used on that probably flogged and flapped around more than any others. So far the only real argument for the not against the splice is the price. You can get some free tuition in making splices at most big boatshows, as the makers of the ropes have demonstrations how the splices are made. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Agreed. Brian Toss's video on splicing double braid is a great investment.
With a little practice you can put a very neat splice in even really hard stuff like T-900. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Believe me, the stunsail tackbend is the "proper" knot for this
application, not the bowline. Try it out on something less critical. You'll see that once cinched down there is no way that it can come loose. Untying is a bit of a pain, but it can be done. BTW, the other name for the stunsail tackbend is the buntline hitch; you'll find more references under that name. The sailnet article in particular debunks the myth of the bowline as the ultimate knot. http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/buntlinehitch.html http://www.scoutingresources.org.uk/...sbuntline.html http://www.sailnet.com/collections/l...leID=rousma017 Denis Marier wrote: I have to replace my main and jib halyard. My old one have the shackles threaded to a nice spliced loop. It looks very nice. As for the new halyards, I am not skillful at splicing and I thinking of using a knot to install the shackles. At first I was thinking of using the bowline. After reading your reply I am considering the stunsail knot. I am apprehensive that if one day the knot gets loose and the halyard gets out of the mast it will be a tenuous job to run the halyard inside the mast. "Jeff" wrote in message ... Denis Marier wrote: This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot. I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more comfortable with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the stunsail the bowline is more secure. Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more. You should definitely use the knots you're comfortable with. The most important thing about any knot is its predictability. This is why my wife's knot tying scares me - her bowlines seems to come out different every time! I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not well finished. Also, when used on a halyard, whether to a shackle or directly to the head, a small loop will be left - this can prevent the sail from be hoisted all the way. In addition, whenever a bowline is tied on a small object, like a shackle or headboard, it will suffer chafe because it is free to move around. A proper end hitch, like the stunsail tackbend or anchor bend is better for this type of attachment. I've used the stunsail tackbend as one of my primary knots for 40 years now, along with a bowline, tautline, and figure eight (and lots more - I was a knot geek before I learned to sail!) and I've never known one to fail, whether on small line or large. |
My new boat came with four nice fenders with whips spliced directly
on. The morning after the first night of the delivery home (on the Erie Canal) one was missing because the splice had slipped loose. On inspection, another was ready to go. Clearly the splicing task had been given to "the new guy" and nobody double checked. I replaced most of the splices on the boat with knots. The halyards had been tied with bowlines - they had been changed before I raised the sails the first time! If you must splice onto something like a fender, its better to first splice a eye, then pass the eye through the hole, and pass the bitter end through the eye. This will put more tension on the rope itself, and not on the splice. Roger Long wrote: If you knew exactly what was going on inside those splices, the know wouldn't look so unreliable. It's all just friction. If you are letting your halyards flog around enough that there is any risk of a knot like that getting loose, you are doing something wrong. The splice looks neater and more techie. It has a micro amount less windage in a place that doesn't matter. Most important, it makes twenty bucks for the marine store every time someone asks for one. Then another twenty when they want to move the wear point or a whole new halyard if the don't. Good deal for them. If you ever have to go up the mast and snag a run away halyard with a boathook, you'll be glad of that knot. The splice taper would have jambed in the sheave while the weight of the knot and the clean stop will let it come back easily. I never heard of that knot but it's a great one and designed to be used on that probably flogged and flapped around more than any others. |
Splicing these newer high tech ropes is not something I want to learn
for a critical application in the couple of days before the mast has to go up. -- Roger Long |
I have learned a lot in as few hours.
Chapman book refers to the stunsail as the buntline hitch as you have already mentioned. It says that it is an excellent knot for fastening a halyard to a shackle and it won't jam in a block as an eye splice might. I am already sold on the stunsail/buntline knot for fastening my shackles. However I am musing about using waxed tread to secure the bitter end of the knot. This may re-enforced my warm feeling? At time, when hit by heavy squalls I have to empty the sails and the quickest way is to let go the sheets. On the other hand the halyards will still be on the top not flapping a great deal. "Jeff" wrote in message ... Believe me, the stunsail tackbend is the "proper" knot for this application, not the bowline. Try it out on something less critical. You'll see that once cinched down there is no way that it can come loose. Untying is a bit of a pain, but it can be done. BTW, the other name for the stunsail tackbend is the buntline hitch; you'll find more references under that name. The sailnet article in particular debunks the myth of the bowline as the ultimate knot. http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/buntlinehitch.html http://www.scoutingresources.org.uk/...sbuntline.html http://www.sailnet.com/collections/l...leID=rousma017 Denis Marier wrote: I have to replace my main and jib halyard. My old one have the shackles threaded to a nice spliced loop. It looks very nice. As for the new halyards, I am not skillful at splicing and I thinking of using a knot to install the shackles. At first I was thinking of using the bowline. After reading your reply I am considering the stunsail knot. I am apprehensive that if one day the knot gets loose and the halyard gets out of the mast it will be a tenuous job to run the halyard inside the mast. "Jeff" wrote in message ... Denis Marier wrote: This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot. I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more comfortable with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the stunsail the bowline is more secure. Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more. You should definitely use the knots you're comfortable with. The most important thing about any knot is its predictability. This is why my wife's knot tying scares me - her bowlines seems to come out different every time! I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not well finished. Also, when used on a halyard, whether to a shackle or directly to the head, a small loop will be left - this can prevent the sail from be hoisted all the way. In addition, whenever a bowline is tied on a small object, like a shackle or headboard, it will suffer chafe because it is free to move around. A proper end hitch, like the stunsail tackbend or anchor bend is better for this type of attachment. I've used the stunsail tackbend as one of my primary knots for 40 years now, along with a bowline, tautline, and figure eight (and lots more - I was a knot geek before I learned to sail!) and I've never known one to fail, whether on small line or large. |
"Dave" wrote in message
... On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:34:57 -0400, Jeff said: I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not well finished. Yes. I've had that happen several times when used on the jib sheets. I've never had a bowline come apart if I've finished it properly. The secret is to have a small loop and a longish bitter end. The only time I had one even come close to coming undone on its own was when a jib was flogging in light air. It's also easy to tie one-handed bowlines, which is a huge advantage if you're in the water and need to secure yourself to the boat in a hurry. It doesn't tighten and won't come loose. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
What would you like in lieu of a bowline that can make you feel more
comfortable. I never had a bowline knot coming apart on it owns yet. I can not make the same statement concerning the stunsail tackbend I have never used it. Today may be a good day to start using the stunsail. I'll know at the end of the summer if I like it or not. "Dave" wrote in message ... On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:34:57 -0400, Jeff said: I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not well finished. Yes. I've had that happen several times when used on the jib sheets. |
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