Say, that's the best idea of this young day. The splices are the big
time hold up and are expensive in fancy rope. I was thinking (well
assuming which is not at all the same thing) that the splice was
necessary for clearance. I forgot about the thicker tail.

According to the tests in the West Catalog, 3/8 Sta-Set has 1.5%
elongation at $1.01 per foot and XLS Extra .75% at $1.76. After that,
prices skyrocket for minimal stretch gains.

If we go with 1/2" Sta-Set at $1.23 a foot, we should have the same
stretch as the more expensive line (based on cross section area),
easier hoisting, and cheaper. We'll never notice the extra weight and
windage in our cruising.

--

Roger Long



"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Roger Long wrote:
...
Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but
it wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300
for a 38 foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get
the boat rigged in time for the weekend.

...

A few more thoughts - a reason for the high tech stuff is to reduce
size and weight. For cruising however, you want the thickest,
easiest to handle line that will fit the sheave, winch and other
fittings.

And for some reason, people like to splice on the halyard shackle
and then wonder why it resists going up the last few inches. Much
better to use a stunsail tackbend, which is very secure, only takes
an inch so it won't jam in the sheave, and can be removed when its
time to "end for end" the rope.

http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/P...mainsheet.html

Roger Long wrote:
Say, that's the best idea of this young day.

Glad to be of help.

The splices are the big
time hold up and are expensive in fancy rope. I was thinking (well
assuming which is not at all the same thing) that the splice was
necessary for clearance. I forgot about the thicker tail.

Remember to get a shackle the "captures" the halyard.


According to the tests in the West Catalog, 3/8 Sta-Set has 1.5%
elongation at $1.01 per foot and XLS Extra .75% at $1.76. After that,
prices skyrocket for minimal stretch gains.

The stretch is measured at 15% of the breaking strength. Since XLS is
not as strong as Sta-Set X, the difference is actually pretty small.

I've wondered what the actual "incremental load" on the halyard is.
When hoisting, its only a few hundred pounds that tensions the line
and that will pull a few inches of stretch. When a gust hits, I
assume most of the load is taken along the luff, not by the halyard,
so the incremental load might be well under 100 pounds. In that case,
we're talking about a stretch that's under an inch, not enough to
concern a cruiser.


If we go with 1/2" Sta-Set at $1.23 a foot, we should have the same
stretch as the more expensive line (based on cross section area),
easier hoisting, and cheaper. We'll never notice the extra weight and
windage in our cruising.

And you can tell them at the bar that you got the super expensive
"easy hand" rope, rather than that cheap spectra stuff.

The stunsail tackbend looks a lot like a clove hitch.

Different knot, same name - or is it a different knot?

Thanks,

Mike.

On 11 Jun 2005 15:10:16 -0700, "beaufortnc"
wrote:

The stunsail tackbend looks a lot like a clove hitch.

Different knot, same name - or is it a different knot?

Thanks,

Mike.

As you can see from this representation, the knot is made the same
way as a clove hitch.


http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/PE/sailing/sailing_knot_mainsheet.html

Brian Whatcott Altus, OK

This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot.
I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more comfortable
with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the stunsail
the bowline is more secure.
Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more.

"Brian Whatcott" wrote in message
...
On 11 Jun 2005 15:10:16 -0700, "beaufortnc"
wrote:

The stunsail tackbend looks a lot like a clove hitch.
http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/PE/sailing/
This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot.
Different knot, same name - or is it a different knot?

Thanks,

Mike.

As you can see from this representation, the knot is made the same
way as a clove hitch.



http://www.wellesley.edu/Athletics/PE/sailing/sailing_knot_mainsheet.html

Brian Whatcott Altus, OK

beaufortnc wrote:
The stunsail tackbend looks a lot like a clove hitch.

Different knot, same name - or is it a different knot?

Thanks,

Mike.

Yes, it is a clove hitch. However, usually when a clove is used to
form a loop, it is usually called "two half hitches" and the second
hitch is tied outside of the first. On the stunsail tackbend, the
second hitch is inside the first, so when its tightened, it is bound
in securely.

In addition to this binding property, it also can be tightened up
remotely since it will slide up the line until the loop is reduced.
I've been told that this property was used in setting a stunsail (the
extra sail to the side a the main course on a ship), and hence the name.

The stunsail is a bit counter-intuitive - anyone trying it will do
two halfhitches instead. It takes a special effort to put the hitches
in the correct order.

Denis Marier wrote:
This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot.
I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more comfortable
with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the stunsail
the bowline is more secure.
Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more.

You should definitely use the knots you're comfortable with. The most
important thing about any knot is its predictability. This is why my
wife's knot tying scares me - her bowlines seems to come out different
every time!

I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a
bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not
well finished. Also, when used on a halyard, whether to a shackle or
directly to the head, a small loop will be left - this can prevent the
sail from be hoisted all the way. In addition, whenever a bowline is
tied on a small object, like a shackle or headboard, it will suffer
chafe because it is free to move around. A proper end hitch, like the
stunsail tackbend or anchor bend is better for this type of attachment.

I've used the stunsail tackbend as one of my primary knots for 40
years now, along with a bowline, tautline, and figure eight (and lots
more - I was a knot geek before I learned to sail!) and I've never
known one to fail, whether on small line or large.

To get a good idea of the line types available, the usage, and trade offs,
(re recreational boating) you should check out one manufacturers sites such
as http://www.samsonrope.com/home/newindex.cfm
You will also find their splicing instructions for each type of line, as
well as notes on tying knots in this high end lines as these lines are
slippery.

You will find that the recommendations you have been given are validated
there.

find some local marine dealers on the web and check the pricing between the
line types.(eg West)
When you see the price differential you will choose a more conventional
line, where the prime concerns are strenght, and low streach, and not
weight.

If you do buy "no name" line, make sure it has UV protection - the main
brands do.

Personally, I have long been a fan of good line and good knots, but there
are circumstances when only a splice will do.

There is another that I don't believe was mentioned, and that is increased
safety, some being:
- no wire barbs as it ages and fatigues.
- wire moving fast thru a hand or over a body part will likely cut by the
time it is felt , whereas line will produce a rope burn.

Other: you mentioned rope-wire splices. You should also inspect the
haylard winch barrels for any burring from taking wire wraps.
If any were full wire halyards, the winches would be the take up spool type,
and need to be replaced when going to line.

Matt


"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I finally unwrapped the mast for "Strider". The standing rigging is in
great shape due to the fresh water but all the running stuff is junk after
six years just hanging in the elements.

I knee jerked to trying to get another wire / rope halyard and then
started really kicking myself when everyone I called said, "Week to ten
days. It's that time of year." Then I called Hallett in Falmouth ME who
took plenty of time to talk with me and acted like the wanted my business.
That always makes me more inclined to give someone my money.

They said to ditch the wire/rope and go with the new low stretch ropes if
the sheaves weren't too chewed up. The owner's association for our E32
reports that the sheaves are suitable for either wire or all rope. I got
the masthead box out and, sure enough, there is just a hint of a wire
groove. The sheaves are in pretty good shape but I'm going to chuck them
in a drill and polish them up.

Hallett said that West would try to sell me a low stretch rope but it
wasn't nearly as good as what they would sell me at about $300 for a 38
foot (deck stepped) mast. If I order it Monday, I can get the boat rigged
in time for the weekend.

I'd appreciate any halyard opinions or experience while I mull this over
the weekend. It's a pretty standard masthead rig with roller furling. We
won't be racing, just easy cruising.

--

Roger Long

I have to replace my main and jib halyard. My old one have the shackles
threaded to a nice spliced loop. It looks very nice. As for the new
halyards, I am not skillful at splicing and I thinking of using a knot to
install the shackles. At first I was thinking of using the bowline. After
reading your reply I am considering the stunsail knot. I am apprehensive
that if one day the knot gets loose and the halyard gets out of the mast it
will be a tenuous job to run the halyard inside the mast.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Denis Marier wrote:
This site is interesting. I have try the stunsail knot.
I see some use for it on a dinghy sailboat. However I feel more
comfortable
with the bowline knot on larger boats. While not as nice as the
stunsail
the bowline is more secure.
Maybe with time I'll get use to a stunsail knot and appreciate it more.

You should definitely use the knots you're comfortable with. The most
important thing about any knot is its predictability. This is why my
wife's knot tying scares me - her bowlines seems to come out different
every time!

I would, however, disagree about the bowline being more secure. It a
bit vulnerable to coming apart if severely flogged, especially if not
well finished. Also, when used on a halyard, whether to a shackle or
directly to the head, a small loop will be left - this can prevent the
sail from be hoisted all the way. In addition, whenever a bowline is
tied on a small object, like a shackle or headboard, it will suffer
chafe because it is free to move around. A proper end hitch, like the
stunsail tackbend or anchor bend is better for this type of attachment.

I've used the stunsail tackbend as one of my primary knots for 40
years now, along with a bowline, tautline, and figure eight (and lots
more - I was a knot geek before I learned to sail!) and I've never
known one to fail, whether on small line or large.

If you knew exactly what was going on inside those splices, the know
wouldn't look so unreliable. It's all just friction. If you are
letting your halyards flog around enough that there is any risk of a
knot like that getting loose, you are doing something wrong.

The splice looks neater and more techie. It has a micro amount less
windage in a place that doesn't matter. Most important, it makes
twenty bucks for the marine store every time someone asks for one.
Then another twenty when they want to move the wear point or a whole
new halyard if the don't. Good deal for them.

If you ever have to go up the mast and snag a run away halyard with a
boathook, you'll be glad of that knot. The splice taper would have
jambed in the sheave while the weight of the knot and the clean stop
will let it come back easily.

I never heard of that knot but it's a great one and designed to be
used on that probably flogged and flapped around more than any others.

--

Roger Long