Hi, Doug

Thanks for reminding me of the old name "fisherman's reef" for the
boom-into-wind rather than bows-into-wind technique!

DSK wrote:

controversy: why do so many people think they should turn on their
engine? Have they all forgotten how to *sail*?

Couldn't agree more. However, generations of sailors have been taught
(usually under relatively benign wind and wave conditions) to turn
their bows straight into the wind when wanting to make major sail
adjustments. When they first try to do that in a big blow they get the
shock of their life when all hell breaks loose, the bow blows off
faster than they can say "o sh$t" and flogging sails can (and will)
selfdestruct in a matter of seconds. Turning on the engine primarily
enables them to keep the bows from blowing off (so they can let the
sails flog even longer......).

When sailing a finkeeler with high bows that blow off fast, such as our
Legend 43, a medium-sized staysail that can be flattened + inboard
sheeted nicely and deployed in an instant is worth its weight in gold.
To raise sail without the use of an engine, even in boisterous
conditions, we just hoist or unfurl the staysail, sheet it in pretty
good and put the vessel on a close-hauled course after picking up a bit
of speed. If the staysail set is any good it should easily prevent the
bows from blowing off by powering up the rudder. Then one can simply
pull the boom to leeward (with the traveler) slack off the mainsheet a
bit and start hoisting the main. In other words, a "fisherman's reef"
in reverse. No mess, no fuss, no slamming and flogging. I wish
sailing instructors would teach that to their pupils, rather than the
mindless, knee-jerk "steering straight into the wind" routine.


This is a decision one has to make in a snap... run off (bear away) or
head up into the wind? One of the factors that I'd consider is the
boat's current point of sail. Anywhere below a beam reach, run off.
Between a beam reach and close reach, it would depend on what sails were
set and the handling characteristics of the particular boat. Above a
beam reach, particularly if close hauled, there is nothing to be gained
by bearing away in a squall and the boat may not answer her helm well
enough if the squall lays her over.

If one is "only surprised" by a squall (i.e. in the sense of perhaps
reefing a bit too late but not completely losing control), I fully
concur with that approach. However, in major "caught off-guard" squall
situations -- e.g. the violent williwaws I described -- the most likely
scenario is that the vessel broaches almost immediately, thereby
loosing its previous point of sail orientation (not to mention the fact
that many types of violent squalls produce a different wind
direction). Now the first concern should be to try and recover from
the broach by slacking off the sheets while the second step is to
decide on the best possible course as soon as the rudder powers up
again.

If the broached vessel has a staysail or smaller jib that can be
sheeted in and flattened in an instance, I would indeed choose to head
up into the wind and use the fisherman's reef approach to drop or reef
the main.

However, if flying a big overlapping genoa before the broach, trying
into the wind may be asking for trouble. Even with a partially furled
large genoa one will probably not be able to point high enough to do a
fisherman's reef on the main. In that case, I would opt for running
off, at least long enough to get the large genoa (or perhaps drifter)
under control rather than to risk damage by flogging.

One issue with furling the jib is that the balance of the boat will change.

I agree. In our case the staysail provided enough balance (while
helping to blanket the genoa as it was being furled). If one does not
have that option, I would advise to leave just enough of the genoa
unfurled to help keep the COE forward of the CLR. Under no
circumstance should one try to pull in on the mainsheet, however, while
running off with little or no headsail under violent squall conditions.
This brings the CEO back and the result is "broach city" (as the next
poster describes).

If you're pulling down the mainsail, wouldn't the sheet be hauled in so
that the crew can reach the boom in the first place?

As explained above, I would only dare to pull the mainsheet in just
enough to get the main off the spreaders while clawing the slides down
at the mast. In our williwaw adventure, I first pulled the luff down
far enough to secure the 3rd reef cringle at the tack and then started
bringing the boom in far enough to rerig the reef lines at the clew.
Under third reef and staysail we then finally turned back into the
squall in order not to lose more hard-won miles. Altogether, we
managed not to break a single batten or slide, let alone tear any
sails.


Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Likewise!

Henk Meuzelaar

Regardless of how it happened, assume it did.
1. Ease mainsheet to allow boat to begin to right itself.
2. Begin furling the jib (yes, it will furl on any point of sail).
while easing its sheets.

I forget that many boats do not have all sail halyards led to cockpit
and going up onto the cabin top in a broach must be frightening. Sails
are cheap, life isnt, let em flog if necessary
Forget sillies who claim to eschew engine use. Boats have engines for
a reason, in danger, use it.

BTW, my old non-roller furling jib had a downhaul for just such
occasions for FL thunderstorms.
Would a downhaul led to the cockpit work for the main? With any force
on the main, it will not fall by itself but you can always muscle it
down unless it gets caught in the spreaders.

Mostly, I agree...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Regardless of how it happened, assume it did.
1. Ease mainsheet to allow boat to begin to right itself.
2. Begin furling the jib (yes, it will furl on any point of sail).
while easing its sheets.

That's good if you can do it. Sometimes, the pressure is so great on the
jib, that I've found it impossible to furl or when furled doesn't furl the
whole way because the jib becomes wound too tight and runs out.

I forget that many boats do not have all sail halyards led to cockpit
and going up onto the cabin top in a broach must be frightening. Sails
are cheap, life isnt, let em flog if necessary
Forget sillies who claim to eschew engine use. Boats have engines for
a reason, in danger, use it.

Yes, but you need to be absolutely certain that lines are not in the water
of course.

BTW, my old non-roller furling jib had a downhaul for just such
occasions for FL thunderstorms.
Would a downhaul led to the cockpit work for the main? With any force
on the main, it will not fall by itself but you can always muscle it
down unless it gets caught in the spreaders.

Worked for my boat. If nothing else, it'll help. They're easy to rig.

wrote:
Regardless of how it happened, assume it did.
1. Ease mainsheet to allow boat to begin to right itself.

Throughout this thread no one has argumented anything else. No
disagreement here.

2. Begin furling the jib (yes, it will furl on any point of sail).
while easing its sheets.

As soon as the vessel rights itself in the squall, with lots of sail
draped all over the place, it will start sailing in some direction or
other. The most immediate issue is therefo what point of sail are
you trying to steer and why??

Without a clear strategy at this juncture, all you are going to achieve
is to set yourself up for your next broach (as two posters have clearly
demonstrated in their stories).

A crucial question in this strategy is whether you are trying to
achieve proper sail balance for going upwind or for running off.

Any attempt to overly simplify the issues is just a prescription for
more threshing around.

Have fun,

Henk Meuzelaar

wrote:
Regardless of how it happened, assume it did.
1. Ease mainsheet to allow boat to begin to right itself.

Check.

2. Begin furling the jib (yes, it will furl on any point of sail).
while easing its sheets.


Important point "while easing sheets." The jib may well furl on any
point of sail, but if it is flogging wildly then it will furl badly or
not at all. Several times I have seen people roll up their jibs in hard
gusts, and the upper part of the sail will be a gnarled-up baggy bundle
instead of a neat roll. This causes a lot of drag and may still have
exposed edges flogging, which *will* damage the sail and may make the
boat much more difficult to control.



I forget that many boats do not have all sail halyards led to cockpit
and going up onto the cabin top in a broach must be frightening.

If you're smart enough to hang on, it may be safer than the cockpit.

... Sails
are cheap, life isnt, let em flog if necessary

I disagree strongly.
1- shredded sails are expensive
2- it increases the danger from the boat being out of control, and
hugely increases the risk of snagging some part of the sail or sheet on
either the rig, deck fitting, or crew.

Forget sillies who claim to eschew engine use. Boats have engines for
a reason, in danger, use it.

Except that you may get a line in the prop, or an air lock, or a slug of
crud from the tank, etc etc. It's funny how an engine that runs
perfectly under calm circumstances cannot be relied on when it's an
"emergency."

Generally, if one cannot keep one's head and *sail* the boat thru a
squall, taking proper measures and keeping the boat under control, then
relying on an engine to magically take over when the sails are too scary
& uncontrollable will not succeed.

This kind of thinking is one reason why I advocate learning to sail in
small responsive boats with no engine. One afternoon of sailing a 14
footer in 15 ~ 20 knot winds will teach you more about how to handle a
25+ footer in a squall than a decade of furling & motoring.


BTW, my old non-roller furling jib had a downhaul for just such
occasions for FL thunderstorms.
Would a downhaul led to the cockpit work for the main? With any force
on the main, it will not fall by itself but you can always muscle it
down unless it gets caught in the spreaders.


A downhaul can be a good thing. Rarely see them on mainsails but it can
certainly work. If you have properly rigged lazyjacks, they reduce the
odds of getting things caught in the spreaders, too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

A downhaul can be a good thing. Rarely see them on mainsails but it can
certainly work. If you have properly rigged lazyjacks, they reduce the
odds of getting things caught in the spreaders, too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

A number of owners of my class of boat have rigged mainsail downhauls to
help in singlehanded sailing. I will be doing same when My main & jib
eturn from a local sailmaker.