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Another single hand/sailboat choice question
A number of months ago I began my search for a sailboat. I am an upper
Chesapeake sailor who, a few years down the road, will do some coastal cruising. I am looking for a boat that I can sail solo (I want to sail solo - if I wanted to hook-up with crew, I would have taken up golf), but that can also confortably accomodate three adults for a weekend cruise.But the principal criteria is its ease/security in solo sailing. I am a retiring athlete and I am sick of racing, so I have no interest in Type-A sailing.I prefer a stable boat; i.e., one that can be out there when most of the other boats have left (I still like adventure). On the other hand, I do not want a boat that will DNF (did not finish) in light air.I started with many boats on my list, admittedly 35 plus ft. After taking ASA 101-104 and gaining more experience, I have come to realize that smaller is better. I have read every book available on solo sailing and I am aware of the rigging, equipment, etc. recommended for single handing. I want to stay under 50k. I prefer, but am not married to, 'classic plastic',and I prefer solid hull boats. Also note; I plan to use a mooring so as to avoid the difficulties of leaving and returning to a slip. My short list: -I really like the Bristol 'decimal' line (29.9, 31.1, 35.5), though I am aware that they are relatively slow and bad at backing under motor. -The Sabre 30-34 are on my list -The Hunter Cherubini's 30,33, even 37 seem to be a real value, though the 'owner's forums' are full of wet deck/rudder-problem stories. I have been on the 'owner's forums' for all of these boats and have solicited opinions. Any neutral/objective suggestions. My strategy at this point is to go with the 'best condition' boat that I can find under 50k.I, of course, will get it surveyed. Brian, Havre de Grace |
Have you considered a small multihull? Fast, good in light air, stable, big
enough for guests, small enough to single-hand. For example, one of the F-boats... F-24. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com wrote in message ups.com... A number of months ago I began my search for a sailboat. I am an upper Chesapeake sailor who, a few years down the road, will do some coastal cruising. I am looking for a boat that I can sail solo (I want to sail solo - if I wanted to hook-up with crew, I would have taken up golf), but that can also confortably accomodate three adults for a weekend cruise.But the principal criteria is its ease/security in solo sailing. I am a retiring athlete and I am sick of racing, so I have no interest in Type-A sailing.I prefer a stable boat; i.e., one that can be out there when most of the other boats have left (I still like adventure). On the other hand, I do not want a boat that will DNF (did not finish) in light air.I started with many boats on my list, admittedly 35 plus ft. After taking ASA 101-104 and gaining more experience, I have come to realize that smaller is better. I have read every book available on solo sailing and I am aware of the rigging, equipment, etc. recommended for single handing. I want to stay under 50k. I prefer, but am not married to, 'classic plastic',and I prefer solid hull boats. Also note; I plan to use a mooring so as to avoid the difficulties of leaving and returning to a slip. My short list: -I really like the Bristol 'decimal' line (29.9, 31.1, 35.5), though I am aware that they are relatively slow and bad at backing under motor. -The Sabre 30-34 are on my list -The Hunter Cherubini's 30,33, even 37 seem to be a real value, though the 'owner's forums' are full of wet deck/rudder-problem stories. I have been on the 'owner's forums' for all of these boats and have solicited opinions. Any neutral/objective suggestions. My strategy at this point is to go with the 'best condition' boat that I can find under 50k.I, of course, will get it surveyed. Brian, Havre de Grace |
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I offer a recommendation of my personal favorite marque, Freedom boats
by Garry Hoyt and TPI. Try a Freedom 30. Frank |
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Peter, we have a Y30 in our fleet. I find it to be a great boat... the
engine in the front was a bit strange at first, but it seems to do quite well in heavy chop.. much less hobby horsing that you typically get. How long did you have it? Did you have any significant problems? I think the only thing I don't like about it is that it has a full rig, and that means no big jibs (we sail in SF bay). Our isn't set up for single-handing also. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Peter Bennett" wrote in message news.com... On 25 Apr 2005 12:48:32 -0700, wrote: A number of months ago I began my search for a sailboat. I am an upper Chesapeake sailor who, a few years down the road, will do some coastal cruising. I am looking for a boat that I can sail solo (I want to sail solo - if I wanted to hook-up with crew, I would have taken up golf), but that can also confortably accomodate three adults for a weekend cruise.But the principal criteria is its ease/security in solo sailing. I single-handed a Yamaha 30 for many years - it is a fairly light racer-cruiser (or perhaps cruiser-racer) - it performed well, and I found it easy to handle. I don't think I'd want to go too much over 30 ft for single-handing coastal cruising (ocean cruising may be another matter). For coastal cruising, you will frequently be raising and lowering sails, anchoring, picking up a mooring, or docking at a marina - all things that are harder the larger the boat. I found the Yamaha very easy to handle, both under way and around marinas (I had less trouble getting it into a marina slip than I do with my present 28 ft trawler, and much, much less trouble than with a 26 ft twin stern drive planing boat I had between the Yamaha and the trawler) -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
wrote:
As a somewhat experienced "singlehander" [Islander 29'] I would advise you that you can single-hand almost any boat. But there's a couple of things that make it much simpler & safer. First of all try to stay under about 32' feet,,,, any bigger than that and the sail area gets too big to handle comfortably ... Point taken. I have been single-handing a 28 footer since 1981. Never considered a bigger boat. A friend of mine sailed a boat just like mine for a number of years, later deciding that 40 feet was "just right." He sold the 28 and bought into a lovely Bristol 40 (and I mean lovely). Then the boat sat for a very long time, other than when he could round up crew (not often). The boat is now on the market and my friend is looking for something under 30 feet. Unfortunately his is not a rare case. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ |
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I have sailed a Sabre 34 on several occasions very short handed,
although not solo. It's a relatively quick boat that is easy to balance, tacks well and is well built. It's probably my favorite boat I've ever sailed. If I were in your boat shoes, however, I'd be thinking of something with a self-tacking, or no, jib. The Sabre could be made self-tacking but would suffer in light winds. A J32 is more like it but out of your price range. Had you considered a Nonsuch? No jib, easy rig to handle, decent performance, very roomy for the length, nice workmanship. David |
wrote: (Original poster). The Freedom has been on and off of my list. I have read the pros and cons. They have great interiors and seem to have as high or higher quality equipment than the Bristols and Sabres. I, however, do worry about buying an older boat with a carbon fiber mast. Admittedly, I only know 'carbon fiber' as used on time trial bikes (my carbon fiber disc wheels crack and detach from other materials that it is adhered to - and it is $$$). The same may not apply to masts. On the other hand, any cyclist will tell you That you cannot beat carbon fiber for stability, weight and power transfer, so I imagine these same features extend to sailing. I have looked at a Freedom 32. I have yet to find the Freedom owners group that I have heard about. The Sailnet group is dead. When Freedom itself supported a board, it was great to go there. I, too, know of no current Freedom ng. IMHO, their construction/equipment/etc. is superior to most. TPI builds great boats. As for carbonfiber, there have been a coupla stories about mast cracks on the earliest versions; but during the period of the boats we're talking about (the later 32s and the 30), they're pretty damned bulletproof. If you've only read about 'em and never sailed one, do yourself a favor and catch a ride on one. After you've sailed one singlehanded, including flying a chute, you'll scoff when people talk about how easy other boats are to sail solo. There's no contest. My opinion and worth every penny you paid for it! Frank |
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(initiator of thread) I was in a class this weekend where I was
learning the proccedure to 'heave to'. Could one do this in a Nonsuch 30 or Freedom 30/32? |
what are you sailing (or did I miss it in your text )? Nice boat!!
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wrote:
(initiator of thread) I was in a class this weekend where I was learning the proccedure to 'heave to'. Could one do this in a Nonsuch 30 or Freedom 30/32? I had a Nonsuch 30 for 8 years and never figured out how to "heave to." This is one point against them as a ocean passage maker. Another is the huge cockpit, a third is the poor stability number which comes from the large beam. However, you were quite specific that you were looking for a Chesapeake Bay cruiser, that could also be used for more extended coastal cruising. In these situations it is very unlikely that you would need to heave to. In fact its usually not desirable if you're closer than 50 miles to land. I sailed my Nonsuch three times in 40+ winds, each with only a single reef. With hindsight, I should have gone to a double reef, but as a ex-dinghy sailor, I'm used to handling a boat that's overpowered. I'm confident the boat could be handled at 50+ knots with a triple reef. Although I almost always had a crew, I effectively singlehanded except for docking and raising sail. Were I to get another for singlehanding, I would install an electric winch, as raising the 500 foot sail is rather tedious. Although I'm content with my current boat (a PDQ 36), my next sailboat will likely be smaller, and I've though of a Nonsuch 26 or a Marshall 22, depending on where I'm located. Here's the polar for a Nonsuch 30. Although not known as a speed demon, it will outperform most traditional 30 foot designs except for pointing ability. However, you can easily win a tacking duel since there is no jib to worry about. Light air is a bit of a weak point, but even there, it will do 5 knots in 6 knots of wind - not that shabby. http://www.sv-loki.com/True.jpg Check out www.nonsuch.org |
wrote:
(initiator of thread) I was in a class this weekend where I was learning the proccedure to 'heave to'. Could one do this in a Nonsuch 30 or Freedom 30/32? Guessing here, but I'd be hard pressed to think of how you could heave to with a Nonsuch. Also difficult to do with a Freedom rig 'cause it'd require some special effort to back the jib. (It tacks on its own.) Maybe you could attach a line from the clew to the toe-rail or something to prevent it from tacking before you go into the tack-and-lock-the-helm-over procedure. But so what? [Opinion alert] Heaving to belongs to the era of wooden boats, hemp lines, and canvas sails. It's been lovingly preserved and practiced by "blue-water cruisers", i.e. folks with full keels, low aspect ratio sailplans, roachless and battenless mains, etc. It's not a technique I have ever used or ever intend to use. Frank |
Lots of good comments here, BUT...
I'll return to shilling for Freedom by opining that absolute length alone is not a decisive factor. For instance, under power in tight quarters, I'd rather dock any 35 ft. fin keeler than a sub-30 ft. full keeler. Under sail, general handling while raising and lowering sails, switching to engine, anchoring, mooring, etc. my experience has been that a Freedom 36 (or 38) is infinitely easier to singlehand than any "standard" Marconi-rig sub-30 footer. And yes that includes singlehanding a tri-radial 'chute, which I wouldn't even try on most keelboats. And going to 40 ft., I'll remind y'all that Garry Hoyt singlehanded his *engineless* prototype Freedom 40 all around the Caribbean, winning races against full crews, and anchoring and docking in notoriously crowded harbors. And the Freedom 44 is essentially the same setup as the 40. So, AFAIC, we're up to 44 feet and still comfortably singlehanding. With the right boat. Frank |
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:37:50 -0700, "JG"
wrote: Peter, we have a Y30 in our fleet. I find it to be a great boat... the engine in the front was a bit strange at first, but it seems to do quite well in heavy chop.. much less hobby horsing that you typically get. How long did you have it? Did you have any significant problems? I think the only thing I don't like about it is that it has a full rig, and that means no big jibs (we sail in SF bay). Our isn't set up for single-handing also. I had a later model Yamaha 30 - it had the engine aft, but most others around here had it forward. I think the yen got too expensive shortly after the aft-engine model was introduced, as mine was one of the last ones imported. I had a tall rig, and had a 160% genoa, if i recall correctly. Don't see why the tall rig would restrict you to small foresails. My boat had a tiller, and the only modification I made for single-handing was to rig a "tiller holder", so the tiller would stay where I put it (for a short time, at least). I also had an autopilot, which helped somewhat... I had the boat for about 10 years, then decided to become a stinkpotter, as I had spent too much time sitting outside in the rain. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
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On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:23:58 -0400, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote: From double-handed experience the J30 is more entertaining to sail and much faster than the boats you mentioned. If you've raced you would probably love "cruising" a J30 or most Js for that matter. C&C 30s and 33s also make that "glorified daysailer" mark in that they are safe and stable, but still can be actively sailed fast. If your accomodations don't need to exceed an Origo, a Koolatron and a few sleeping bags, you have a lot of choice also in the 1/4 tonner fleet, although headroom's an issue. Solo and getting on a bit, I would say 33 feet is a good practical limit, because you have to move fast or be quite skilled indeed to dock alone with something much bigger in most fast cruisers. A Westsail 32 or a Contessa, on the other hand, will just hit the dock and stop. G R. |
"Peter Bennett" wrote in message
news.com... On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:37:50 -0700, "JG" wrote: Peter, we have a Y30 in our fleet. I find it to be a great boat... the engine in the front was a bit strange at first, but it seems to do quite well in heavy chop.. much less hobby horsing that you typically get. How long did you have it? Did you have any significant problems? I think the only thing I don't like about it is that it has a full rig, and that means no big jibs (we sail in SF bay). Our isn't set up for single-handing also. I had a later model Yamaha 30 - it had the engine aft, but most others around here had it forward. I think the yen got too expensive shortly after the aft-engine model was introduced, as mine was one of the last ones imported. Ah... yeh, ours has the engine under the v-berth... long prop shaft, with the engine intake right next to the shaft. We have a big sign next to the valve that says watch your fingers. I had a tall rig, and had a 160% genoa, if i recall correctly. Don't see why the tall rig would restrict you to small foresails. It doesn't. It's just that we can't take advantage of the three larger sails, because we get so much wind on a regular basis here. My boat had a tiller, and the only modification I made for single-handing was to rig a "tiller holder", so the tiller would stay where I put it (for a short time, at least). I also had an autopilot, which helped somewhat... Ours is a wheel. I had a "tiller tender" on my Cal 20. Worked great. It gave me up to about a minute of hands-free. I had the boat for about 10 years, then decided to become a stinkpotter, as I had spent too much time sitting outside in the rain. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
Dave wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:24:52 -0400, Jeff said: However, you were quite specific that you were looking for a Chesapeake Bay cruiser, that could also be used for more extended coastal cruising. In these situations it is very unlikely that you would need to heave to. In fact its usually not desirable if you're closer than 50 miles to land. Have to disagree there. I often find it useful when single-handing on LI Sound, particularly when dropping the sails. Dave I'm not sure what you mean. The "heaving to" that we're discussing is a heavy weather technique for sloops where the jib is backed and the helm is down. A Nonsuch without a jib, and even a Freedom with a small jib can't really do this. I don't understand how you do this as you "drop the sails," though I can imagine that on a normal boat you might want to stall it while you drop the main. On a Nonsuch, of course, the wishbone with lazy jacks does a rather good job of gathering the main, and with no other sail, the engine is likely running (or you're at anchor) when you drop sail. I know that some singlehander will heave to make lunch, or do some other chore, but with modern autopilots it isn't really a necessity. |
(initiator of thread) Thanks for the suggestions and comments. One of
the problems that I am having in narrowing my selection is due to the fact that my principle harbor, Havre de Grace, MD, has one marina of significant size and, I swear, 90% of the boats are either Hunters or Catalinas (the marina is also a dealership for these boats - there is kind of a 'monopoly' feel about the place, though everybody is nice and it does not have that 'uppity' feel that Annapolis has. That most buy from product from the 'oligopoly' is not a bad thing, but when I walk around I do not run into owners of Freedoms, Bristols, or even Sabres and Tartans, etc. So, like others here, I have to rely on forums like these to narrow my search. I plan to buy in the Fall before the boats are out of the water. I need time to raise cash, but I also suspect that it is a decent time to buy, much like waiting for October to purchase a motorcycle. This weekend I may again drive down to Annapolis, this time to see a Bristol 27.7 and 29.9. There is also a nice looking Freedom 32 listed with Rouguewaves, and a 30' Sabre with a smaller broker. I am definately thinking smaller (and feeling wealthier). The Tartan 37, Ericson 38, etc. are now off of my short list. |
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a cape dory 28'?
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I have been searching under the assumption that a 30-32' J-Boat would
be a bear to single-hand, except for highly skilled/experienced sailors, because it is built (light with substantial sail area) principally for crewed races. Am I wrong? Thanks |
wrote:
... One of the problems that I am having in narrowing my selection is due to the fact that my principle harbor, Havre de Grace, MD, has one marina of significant size and, I swear, 90% of the boats are either Hunters or Catalinas ... [and] ... when I walk around I do not run into owners of Freedoms, Bristols, or even Sabres and Tartans, etc... I suspect you will almost always find that owners of particular boats are inclined to "shill" (as another writer put it) for their own boats for a number of reasons. Makes sense. But a more detached approach admits that any design is a compromise. I don't know how many times I've decided that a Corsair 31 was the perfect boat, or a Morris 42, or a Bristol Channel Cutter, or a Gemini 31, or a Newick Native, etc., etc. All different, and all very good for certain purposes and pocketbooks. Yet most of us end up with one boat, and hold onto it for a while. You must (well, not really "must," I guess) decide what you want to do and where to do it, then work backwards. If you intend to sail short handed out of Havre de Grace, you need a reliable engine (long entrance channel), not too much draft, a boat that won't cost an arm and a leg to pay for a slip (I cannot recall if there are moorings there, since I have anchored out on my visits). This results in a long list. What you want to do is buy "smart" with a good survey and at a fair price, then stick with that boat until you are absolutely certain that it's time for a change. And that day may never come. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ |
Frank wrote:
Under sail, general handling while raising and lowering sails, switching to engine, anchoring, mooring, etc. my experience has been that a Freedom 36 (or 38) is infinitely easier to singlehand than any "standard" Marconi-rig sub-30 footer. And yes that includes singlehanding a tri-radial 'chute, which I wouldn't even try on most keelboats. I think that, once again, "it depends." I single hand a 28 foot sloop and routinely set a conventional tri-radial spinnaker without mishap. I'm no athlete or "diehard" racer, but I like to keep the boat moving, and that's what's required. However once you get up near 40 feet, a tri-radial can get to be a lot of cloth very quickly. In addition the average bloke will usually decide it's just too much trouble in many cases, and resort to fossil fuels. Among the cruising people I've known, laziness is often considered a virtue. And going to 40 ft., I'll remind y'all that Garry Hoyt singlehanded his *engineless* prototype Freedom 40 all around the Caribbean, winning races against full crews, and anchoring and docking in notoriously crowded harbors ... And the Freedom 44 is essentially the same setup as the 40. So, AFAIC, we're up to 44 feet and still comfortably singlehanding. With the right boat. There are individual cases on both ends that support whatever argument is in need of support. Michael Ritchie sailed "Jester" all over the place, and someone or other sailed "Mediteranee" (sp?) to those same places. "Jester" was about 26 feet, and the other multi-masted monster was ten times her length. Length alone is not a limiting factor, but for average folks it's a reasonable indicator. I think the main factor for practical people is that while length increases linearly, related items do not. Volume, weight, equipment size, and cost definitely do not stay within the bounds as length increases. And in my experience it's usually the smaller boats that leave the mooring regularly, while the larger boats are waiting either for crew, or for refrigeration spares and parts. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ |
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very true. I look at the Bristol Channel Cutter (my favorate,
aesthetically) and the Nor'Sea and the old Allieds and the non-decimal Bristols the way I look at Meg Ryan (to a 50-something she looks good). Many of the boats that I am attracted to are full keel (or 3/4). I came close last month to buying a beautifully restored Allied 35' and I am very attracted to the 'Princess', but, given that my home is the Chesapeake, I suspect that an affair with a full keel boat will, in the long run, prove to be less than satisfying. However, I confess that I would like to hear to the contrary. Last weekend I was sailing with a group on one of the few boats willing to deal with strong shifting winds on the Chesapeake; the conditions in which these boats would excel - saw a large Beneteau give up. I was taking a sailing course in a small 22' - great way to really get your feet wet. However, in July and August in the upper Chesapeake I suspect that I would get pretty frustrated owning a full keel boat. Again, I do not care much about speed - I do the swimming race across the bay and I am trying to get away from that kind of competitive upmanship. But I do not want, especially with an older boat, to rely too heavily on the motor. I want a boat that I can regularly take down the Chesapeake and back for 3-5 days by myself and sometimes with my wife and teenage son. I want to hang out, take in my environs and have lots of time to be with myself and write. But, as a retiring triathlete/adventure racer I know that once I hone my skills I will want to explore less accomodating waters, so I do not want a boat built only for mellow moments. |
rhys wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:23:58 -0400, Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote: From double-handed experience the J30 is more entertaining to sail and much faster than the boats you mentioned. If you've raced you would probably love "cruising" a J30 or most Js for that matter. C&C 30s and 33s also make that "glorified daysailer" mark in that they are safe and stable, but still can be actively sailed fast. If your accomodations don't need to exceed an Origo, a Koolatron and a few sleeping bags, you have a lot of choice also in the 1/4 tonner fleet, although headroom's an issue. Solo and getting on a bit, I would say 33 feet is a good practical limit, because you have to move fast or be quite skilled indeed to dock alone with something much bigger in most fast cruisers. A Westsail 32 or a Contessa, on the other hand, will just hit the dock and stop. G R. The best way to sail "fast" is to leave the phone at home, rip out the knotmeter, and pull all the ropes a little too tight. Fast is a relative term. Some sail to be competetive, and some sail to get away from it all. Just ask yourself if the seagulls worry about going fast enough. If the numbers on an electronic instrument are more important to you than sailing "well", sell the boat and buy a top fuel dragster. Otherwise, it just becomes a contest to see who's craziest and will spend the most money for the sake of a .1 on the knotmeter, or another scratch on some trophy. At least, that's not why I sail. You must please youreslf. Terry K |
wrote:\
... I came close last month to buying a beautifully restored Allied 35' and I am very attracted to the 'Princess', but, given that my home is the Chesapeake, I suspect that an affair with a full keel boat will, in the long run, prove to be less than satisfying ... I don't immediately see why, assuming you buy "smart." On the Bay boats that do well in light air are probably more "fun" but there is nothing wrong with an old CCA design that good sails (and good sailing) won't fix. ... in July and August in the upper Chesapeake I suspect that I would get pretty frustrated owning a full keel boat ... I think this is an oversimplification, but it is certainly true that the Bay has its own character. Why not sail over to New England during August like everyone else and be done with it? ... Again, I do not care much about speed ... Did you not just indicate the opposite? ? ... But I do not want, especially with an older boat, to rely too heavily on the motor. I want a boat that I can regularly take down the Chesapeake and back for 3-5 days by myself and sometimes with my wife and teenage son ... I have noticed that people who have to get back by Monday morning need a reliable engine. My own solution was to retire early. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ |
"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
... wrote: what are you sailing (or did I miss it in your text )? Nice boat!! If directed at me, I am owned by a Cape Dory 28. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/ Probably takes good care of you though. g |
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:18:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:
I know that some singlehander will heave to make lunch, or do some other chore, but with modern autopilots it isn't really a necessity. On a nice day with a moderate breeze I can heave to and park the boat so it drifts sideways at very low speed, whereas with the auto-pilot it will continue on at 6 knots plus. Putting it in park feels better unless there's absolutely nothing near by. Ryk |
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:12:08 -0400, rhys wrote:
On 27 Apr 2005 04:33:25 -0700, wrote: I am definately thinking smaller (and feeling wealthier). Well, you have that part exactly right. Smaller is cheaper and cheaper still on a per-foot basis. When I got my 33.5 footer in 1999, I was squarely in the middle of boat size at my club. Six years on, and I am at the high end of "small" and 27 footers stay unsold for months and go for what is in my opinion a song. It's a great time to buy a 25-30 foot late '70s-1990 boat, I think. A friend here can't move an updated race-winning '84 Newport 27 (essentially a C&C 27) for $15,000 Cdn., which is about $11,500 U.S. I agree that under 30' is a real buyer's market these days. There are lots of sail away options at under $10K. Frequently, the only problems are old, sometimes original sails and/or tired rigging. You can say that as you will need to buy these items, you wish a discount. Frequently, you'll get it and then some, and with new sails and rigging on a dry, tight, well-maintained boat, it's essentially new at 15%-20% of the price of a comparably new boat...if you can find anyone making a 30 foot or under boat that isn't a pure one-design. The idea is that you get to buy a better boat for less, and then do a major gear upgrade at once, given that the hull and systems are either good or gone, but you'd probably change the sails anyway. There is also a really enjoyable process in going out to buy a whole bunch of new, cool stuff that makes it much more *your* boat than just taking delivery of the whole package. Ryk |
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:18:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:
Snip I know that some singlehander will heave to make lunch, or do some other chore, but with modern autopilots it isn't really a necessity. Some singlehanders will heave to to make lunch not because of a lack of an autopilot but because heaving to eases the boat's motion and steadies her down some. Easier to cook or whatnot when the boat isn't lurching around. :o) Mark E. Williams |
(initiator of thread - thanks for keeping this discussion going) There
are definately lots of boats for sale in the 30' range and last weekend at a large marina on the northern part of the Chesapeake I counted relatively few boats under 32'; most being 38' and above (most of them Hunters, Catalinas, and Beneteaus - in that order). This question is directed at those who know something about Bristols. I have been following the listings for five months now. I copy the specs and I keep track of what the asking prices are. In comparison to Tartans, C&C's, Sabres, etc., the variance in asking price for the Bristol, whether it is the 31.1 or 35.5 (especially this one) is much higher. And this wide range of asking prices (55-119k) is within the same region and with what appear to me equally equipped and aged boats. I have visited some of them them, though have not gotten to the point where I have had them surveyed, so I do not know if there is something fundamentally wrong with the ones in the 50-ish range and something spectacular with those priced much higher. The cosmetically cleaner boats are the pricier ones, but not so nice that they should be priced 75% higher than the others. Sure, the Bristol may have a cult following, but so does the Tartan 37, Ericson 38, Westsail 32, and the Sabres, and I do not see a similar range in asking prices for these boats. The Bristol has a lot of things going for it, but its downside is also common knowledge. Is there something I am missing? Or are some sellers irrational? Few are moving. My hope is that if I remain patient the market will be more rational toward the end of the season. But I am a new to this game. Any advice? |
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rhys wrote:
On 27 Apr 2005 04:33:25 -0700, wrote: I am definately thinking smaller (and feeling wealthier). Well, you have that part exactly right. Smaller is cheaper and cheaper still on a per-foot basis. When I got my 33.5 footer in 1999, I was squarely in the middle of boat size at my club. Six years on, and I am at the high end of "small" and 27 footers stay unsold for months and go for what is in my opinion a song. It's a great time to buy a 25-30 foot late '70s-1990 boat, I think. A friend here can't move an updated race-winning '84 Newport 27 (essentially a C&C 27) for $15,000 Cdn., which is about $11,500 U.S. Speaking of Newports, the 28 and 30 are some of the roomiest boats of their size. They sail well too. I've never sailed the 28, but I think it's similar to the 30 -- which I've sailed a lot. It's decent in light air, and handles a breeze just fine (they're a Gary Mull design from San Francisco, where they're still popular). For some reason these boats are pretty cheap. I've seen nice Newport 30s for under 10 grand. I'm also very partial to the Cal 27 II and III, which is a great sailor, and also cheap. Same with the 34 -- which is larger but less expensive than some of the boats mentioned. Some friends circumnavigated in one, so I trust it. If you can find a Cal 2-30 they're a gem of a sailor and more modern looking too. Cals aren't as fancy as some other boats, but they're well built, good sailors. If you spend less money on the boat, you'll have more available for improving and outfitting. I'd rather spend my money on new sails than a bunch of teak. The good news is that you can reasonably over-budget on the basis of getting a circa 30 footer that is immaculate and/or discounted on the basis of known and easily fixable stuff. Frequently you will see an older fellow or couple who have been the single owners of a smaller sailboat for 25 + years. The things frequently look factory, and some have been incrementally improved (hot running water, newer electrical panels, etc.) by owners who spend a long of time aboard. Frequently, the only problems are old, sometimes original sails and/or tired rigging. You can say that as you will need to buy these items, you wish a discount. Frequently, you'll get it and then some, and with new sails and rigging on a dry, tight, well-maintained boat, it's essentially new at 15%-20% of the price of a comparably new boat...if you can find anyone making a 30 foot or under boat that isn't a pure one-design. The idea is that you get to buy a better boat for less, and then do a major gear upgrade at once, given that the hull and systems are either good or gone, but you'd probably change the sails anyway. All good points. One advantage of popular mass-produced boats like Beneteaus and Catalinas is that sails and other parts are more widely available, at lower prices. Cals and Newports fall into this category too. Also, Catalina has always made a lot of stuff in-house, and still offers better support for their old boats than just about anybody. Matt O. |
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