On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:00:10 -0400, DSK wrote:

Michael wrote:
Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure


The purchasing of a boat is relatively straighforward. One can (and
should IMHO) draw up a contract embodying the offer to buy the boat,
similar to a sale contract on a house. It should protect the interests
of both parties... the times I have drawn up such documents, of course I
have tended to slant it a bit more my own way, OTOH many brokers offer a
"standard contract" that is all but an open invitiation for him to pick
the buyer's pocket.

Perhaps you meant that you were researching *boats* with the possibility
of buying one yourself in the near future?


Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need:

- rudder rebuild

Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have
the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the
boat had some really really special characteristics.


Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also
exist.


Bushings, bearings, tomatoes, tom-ah-tows... the question is what does
the boat you want have, and what shape are they in. Many boats have
rather fancy double-race needle bearings for the lower rudder post
"bushing." The loads here can be tremendous when sailing hard.

Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.

I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings
you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders..

I doubt that anyone has ever purchased a boat having everthing they
want - unless it is custom built and designed for them. Buying a boat
for most of us is a compromise...overall you may like the boat and
many aspects of it. For example a lead vs cast iron keel. Or a spade
rudder verses transom rudder, etc, etc.....

BTW one point in favor out outboard rudders is the strength & simplicity
of this configuration.

Or a keel hung rudder....

though these rudder..by design tend not to be "balanced" rudders when
the leading edge of the rudder is inline with the rudder shaft....


.... I could think of many more siginificant
issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild.


If that was the only thing with an otherwise perfect (for you) boat, sure.

Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000


Again, IMHO is you can't do a job like this yourself you should be
considering buying the boat. If you don't have the knowledge, at the vey
least, how will you know if the boatyard does it *right*?

That can be said in virtually every situation and realm of anything
just not boats...

A wild guess is that 80% of boat owners dont know how to do this or
80% of any other work that may be required to be done, yet they own
boats. Probably why much maintanence is to attended to, amongest
other practical reasons.


- standing rigging replacement

Standing rigging has little to do with the designer

???

In terms of it replacement, sure designers initially determine the
original config. and I have yet to see anyone change that (from an
original design aspect). Very rarely would the design of the standing
rigging be changed on a production boat. Most riggers want the old
rigging to duplicate the new rigging.


Who do you think specifies the type, size, placement, etc etc?

Originally the designer, but that has nothing to do with the reason
per say of the replacement when replaced, Or the original design as
being the reason for the replacement.

What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about
"upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so
macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1-
rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind
strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and
3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may
actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast.

The Guy who circumnavigated on a Cal 25 did upgrade the standing
rigging to 1/4" and did extensive mods...

Yes there are downsides to upgrading the standing rigging to a larger
size, one increment in size would not make a difference, negatively
and probably be more of a positive depending on its use.

Unless one has reason to believe that either the designer didn't know
what he doing, or the builder skimped, one should only replace standing
rigging with the same type & size.

Generally, yes, thats what pro riggers do. Although one increment
increase has no negative effect other than cost. But it is sort of
like determining what the thickness of the glass layup should be,a
definate cost determinate. Standard "practical rule" for anchors is
what ever the size is recommended go up one size.

How long should standing rigging last, at what point should you
consider its replacement?


... One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing
rigging,

A lot of people here use galvanized, too.

Here? Where?
I have personally have not seen any on a standard production boat
retro fitted with galvanized. But I do see the postive aspect of its
use. I would rather replace it more often at that cost than figure
the SS rigging will last as long as the rest of the boat.

... Now that may seem stupid,
but:
1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss)

???

If the wire itself is slightly stronger, it's also less flexible and the
connections are correspondingly weaker.

Not necessarly...rod rigging isnt meant to necessarly be flexible



2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure
-cheaper to replace


Much much cheaper... the only real advantage IMHO.



Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and
couplings not the actual wire itself.


Exactly.



- running rigging replacement

Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't
sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer.


Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block
replacement

Shucks I've spent well more than that on a 19 footer... a racing boat,
to be sure...

Thats for a standard 26 production boat cruiser depending...


- bottom paint

Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for
this. It's a regular maintenance item.


If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different
story.

Blisters are not covered under "bottom paint." Blister repair can be
anything from minor annoyance to major structural nightmare.





I like the concept of outboards on sailboats.

I do too, up to a certain size. Beyond 26' it can be a problem both in
mass of the boat & pitching out the prop. But an outboard makes the boat
marvelously maneuveralbe (provided you can reach it handily to swivel it
around).

Yes.

As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard
with more negatives. And there are enough boats over 26ft that have
them. And Outboards come in 15", 20" and 25". And outboard on a
transom over 26 is NG but in a lazarette still my pref. even over 26ft



... That are like a
saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a
lazerette.

Every arrangement I've ever seen like this was a total PITA. Of course,
better arrangements may exist.

That is my opinion with the outboard of the transom unless the transom
has a "U" provision (cutout) for the outboard.


... Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB.


Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher;
reliability is often lower too.

Point for the lazerrete config.....


- battery replacement

Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't
have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor
batteries. Not much money or hassle here.


If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400

Not if you know where to shop. Besides, the battery itself is rarely the
problem with "dead batteries." What's the point in buying new batteries
if the wiring & charging are going to kill it again in short order?



Average working life of a sail?

Depends very much on the sail & usage. The hardest things for a sail to
endure are flogging or flapping, and UV exposure. A sail that is left
hoisted to slap around freely will be tatters in a few days. A sail that
is left uncovered... especially in the harsh Southern sun... will be
rotten in a few months if not weeks.

Personally, I am rather spoiled by having had very nice racing sails. I
hate seeing baggy blown out rags that kill the boat's pointing, give
excessive & erratic helm, and heel it way over. Sails that get regular
use should probably be replaced in 3 ~ 5 years.


Yes they cost more than you think. A
new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus



The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older
26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a
price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the
purchase price?

Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands.


Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like
working with fiberglass....

Does anybody really *like* working with fiberglass? I'm pretty good at
it myself (pardon a little bragging) but it is out of necessity, not
because I like it. I'd rather do wood work (which I'm not very good at)
or mechanical work any day.


....this issue (delamination or structural repair)
would qulaify as the ultimate
project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there
is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat

Depends very much on the boat & it's care. IMHO many many boats will not
need significant fiberglass work... or structural work... in 40+ years
much less 20.

Even if the damage to the deck is limited to points of hardware
attachment, that is fairly significant, although not compared to most
of the deck replacement. There probably isnt a single boat that does
not have core issues to some degree.

... and it seems (from
my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue.

Sure. Some people bought AMC Gremlins, too



I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy
more.

And what your budget will allow. Many people badly underestimate the
cost of repairs & upgrades needed by a boat they're considering buying.

Seems that when I figure the "needs" the final cost is more than the
boat is worth....pretty standard. Boating is a pleasure that is like
a consumable, problem is that many dont see it that way when they sell
it. Like I refered to the URL for boat buying....says it all.



How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is?


By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at
what else is on the market.


Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition
what would it be worth.

But that depends on the buyer, too. For example, I know a man who not
only paid an already high asking price, but also paid the owner/seller
handsomely to do some small upgrades & deliver the boat. This buyer had
a lot of money, was looking for a particular boat in great shape (it was
a nostalgia thing) and didn't have the time himself. He wanted to
recapture some happy memories of sailing and had the budget to indulge
himself. Later he decided it was too expensive, sold the boat at a big
loss, and now crews for other people when he has time to sail.

Not a common situation....

In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap
(ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really
sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most.
It's the means to an end.

The economic advantage doesnt always outweight the practical downside,
mileage will vary....Boat repair can be a hobby to a degree.


... A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Perceived condition is subjective in many instances.


You have gained much wisdom

Much so called "wisdom" is perception also:}}
"Genius is limited and stupidity is unlimited"

Fresh Breezes- Doug King