Bushings, bearings, tomatoes, tom-ah-tows... the question is what does
the boat you want have, and what shape are they in. Many boats have
rather fancy double-race needle bearings for the lower rudder post
"bushing." The loads here can be tremendous when sailing hard.


Michael wrote:
Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.


The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.

I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings
you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders..

Probably not in the 30' size range.

Fancy racing boats have top-notch rudder post bearings, and of course
bigger boats have to have bearings appropriate to the load... if they're
well designed of course...

It's a worthwhile upgrade to a boat that will spend a lot of time
sailing hard on autopilot.


I doubt that anyone has ever purchased a boat having everthing they
want - unless it is custom built and designed for them.

Even then, you just can't get everything. I think there's a law.



Again, IMHO is you can't do a job like this yourself you should be
considering buying the boat. If you don't have the knowledge, at the vey
least, how will you know if the boatyard does it *right*?


That can be said in virtually every situation and realm of anything
just not boats...

A wild guess is that 80% of boat owners dont know how to do this or
80% of any other work that may be required to be done, yet they own
boats.

IMHO that's a wild overestimate. Most boat owners I know (mostly
mid-size sailboats) know how to do a wide variety of technical things
and all basic maintenance. The stuff that gets done by hired help is
either really demanding & technical, perhaps requiring special tools...
like testing injectors or timing injector pumps... or really tedious &
awfule, like sanding off old bottom paint.



Standing rigging has little to do with the designer

???


In terms of it replacement, sure designers initially determine the
original config. and I have yet to see anyone change that (from an
original design aspect).

I have. In a very few cases did it turn out to be a wise move.

... Very rarely would the design of the standing
rigging be changed on a production boat.

Depends on who is doing what. A a relatively common change is adding an
inner stay for a staysail.



What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about
"upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so
macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1-
rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind
strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and
3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may
actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast.


The Guy who circumnavigated on a Cal 25 did upgrade the standing
rigging to 1/4" and did extensive mods...


Yep, Dave Martin. He stayed in Oriental, NC for quite a while. Some of
what he did made good sense... putting on larger standing rigging did
not. In fact (as I said) from an engineering standpoint it can be
harmful. Where does all the added stress from this stronger rigging go?
It doesn't disappear!



Yes there are downsides to upgrading the standing rigging to a larger
size, one increment in size would not make a difference

Yes, it would. There would be a difference in weight aloft, in windage,
in stress generated from the additional tension needed to keep that
heavier gage rigging from shock loading, and in any event (as I said)
the standing rigging loads are determined by the boat's righting moment.
The strongest possible wind will not impose any more strain on it.
However the heavier gage will require greater tension and will have less
elasticity and will probably overstress the chainplates and will
definitely place a greater compression load on the mast.

I have never yet heard of anybody putting on a thicker mast because they
want a tougher more seaworthy boat.

In short, putting on heavier standing rig is good *only* if it was
undersized originally. In any other possible case, it is detrimental to
the boat's performance and seaworthiness. Period.



How long should standing rigging last, at what point should you
consider its replacement?


Depends on type & service.

The thing that really kills standing rigging is crevice corrosion in the
swaged terminals. That's by far the most common point for failure.
Another common one is roller furlers unlaying the forestay cable.
After that would probably be fatigue from improperly toggled
turnbuckles. I have also seen a rig come down when the jib sheet pulled
out the cotter rings from the clevis pins.




... One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing
rigging,

A lot of people here use galvanized, too.


Here? Where?

I'm on the middle US East Coast.

I have personally have not seen any on a standard production boat
retro fitted with galvanized.

I have. Not all that common, but maybe there's a higher percentage of
people that aren't embarassed to shop at the farm & truck supply around
here.

.... But I do see the postive aspect of its
use. I would rather replace it more often at that cost than figure
the SS rigging will last as long as the rest of the boat.

Get Sta-Loks. You'll never need to replace anything but the very
inexpensive cones.


If the wire itself is slightly stronger, it's also less flexible and the
connections are correspondingly weaker.


Not necessarly...rod rigging isnt meant to necessarly be flexible


Yep, that's a different can o'worms. I don't have much experience with
rod rigging... in fact none at all with replacing it, specifically...
but it seems to be much longer lived due to the lack of swaged
terminals... and anyway not very many 30' and under production boats
have rod rigging, do they?




As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard
with more negatives.

Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient,
and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put
both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations.

The advantages of an outboard are
1- cost
2- winter storage in your closet
3- service by removing it to the shop
4- maneuverability (*if* the installation is such that the helmsman can
swivel it)

Pretty much everything else about them is a negative. Fuel economy &
heavy weather performance are terrible.

Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher;
reliability is often lower too.


Point for the lazerrete config.....

Putting the OB in a lazarette might reduce the chance of theivery, but
it increases the chance of flooding... those wells get a surge up in
them at every wave, your engine could go under water 500 times and you
wouldn't see it. Many of the also amplify noise, and choke the engine.
They keep that traditional counter stern looking sweet, though.

That's been my experience with a dozen or so boats equipped with
outboards in wells. YMMV




In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap
(ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really
sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most.
It's the means to an end.


The economic advantage doesnt always outweight the practical downside,
mileage will vary....Boat repair can be a hobby to a degree.


And it also gives you a boat that you know all about, and can fix, and
can rely on.


Much so called "wisdom" is perception also:}}
"Genius is limited and stupidity is unlimited"


That's an excellent quote. One of my favorites is
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the
intelligent are full of doubt"
--Bertrand Russell

Fresh Breezes-- Doug King

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:


Michael wrote:
Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.


The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.
///
Fresh Breezes-- Doug King


Hmmm...seems to me that the steering torque on a rudder can be
reduced, zeroed or reversed - depending on the balance area fraction
selected. The rule of thumb, I seem to recall is 25% area forward for
minimal torque - more than that and the torque is reversed, giving
unpleasant positive feedback effect.

Brian Whatcott Altus, OK

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:
(snip)
Michael wrote:
Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.


The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the force by the
helmsman requires less physical effort with a balanced rudder.

I can not think of anything that would reduce the load on a rudder
post....

I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings
you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders..

Probably not in the 30' size range.

Fancy racing boats have top-notch rudder post bearings, and of course
bigger boats have to have bearings appropriate to the load... if they're
well designed of course...

It's a worthwhile upgrade to a boat that will spend a lot of time
sailing hard on autopilot.

Humm.... I think I would rather have a bushing, I dont think a bearing
in a water environment would last or be as reliable as a bushing...



A wild guess is that 80% of boat owners dont know how to do this or
80% of any other work that may be required to be done, yet they own
boats.

IMHO that's a wild overestimate. Most boat owners I know (mostly
mid-size sailboats) know how to do a wide variety of technical things
and all basic maintenance. The stuff that gets done by hired help is
either really demanding & technical, perhaps requiring special tools...
like testing injectors or timing injector pumps... or really tedious &
awfule, like sanding off old bottom paint.




Standing rigging has little to do with the designer


In terms of it replacement, sure designers initially determine the
original config. and I have yet to see anyone change that (from an
original design aspect).

I have. In a very few cases did it turn out to be a wise move.

... Very rarely would the design of the standing
rigging be changed on a production boat.

Depends on who is doing what. A a relatively common change is adding an
inner stay for a staysail.

Ya but thats not a mod like separating two shrouds from a single chain
plate, or mounting the chain plate on the outboard of the hull,
etc....
a inner stay isnt a mod of the existing rig but an addition to it



What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about
"upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so
macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1-
rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind
strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and
3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may
actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast.


Yep, Dave Martin. He stayed in Oriental, NC for quite a while. Some of
what he did made good sense... putting on larger standing rigging did
not. In fact (as I said) from an engineering standpoint it can be
harmful. Where does all the added stress from this stronger rigging go?
It doesn't disappear!



Yes there are downsides to upgrading the standing rigging to a larger
size, one increment in size would not make a difference

Yes, it would. There would be a difference in weight aloft, in windage,
in stress generated from the additional tension needed to keep that
heavier gage rigging from shock loading, and in any event (as I said)
the standing rigging loads are determined by the boat's righting moment.
The strongest possible wind will not impose any more strain on it.
However the heavier gage will require greater tension and will have less
elasticity and will probably overstress the chainplates and will
definitely place a greater compression load on the mast.

I dont necessarly disagree with you but from all those who have
upgraded one size I have never heard any issue as a result from the
end user or a rigger....

I have never yet heard of anybody putting on a thicker mast because they
want a tougher more seaworthy boat.

In short, putting on heavier standing rig is good *only* if it was
undersized originally. In any other possible case, it is detrimental to
the boat's performance and seaworthiness. Period.


.... But I do see the postive aspect of its
use. I would rather replace it more often at that cost than figure
the SS rigging will last as long as the rest of the boat.

Get Sta-Loks. You'll never need to replace anything but the very
inexpensive cones.

Yes they are better than the Norseman ones from the test results I
have read.


As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard
with more negatives.

Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient,
and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put
both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations.

For the lower unit the boat must be dry docked to service it, where a
OB on a laz maybe pulled at any time. COST...

Is a saildrive generally prefered over a conventional IB? I dont
think so, why is that?

Multihulls have saildrives or OB's I would rather have the OB's

check out this excellent pictoral of a OB in a laz as well as general
project boat:
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/s...9&page=1&pp=15

you should go through all 15 pages

The advantages of an outboard are
1- cost
2- winter storage in your closet
3- service by removing it to the shop
4- maneuverability (*if* the installation is such that the helmsman can
swivel it)

Pretty much everything else about them is a negative. Fuel economy &
heavy weather performance are terrible.

Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher;
reliability is often lower too.


Point for the lazerrete config.....

Putting the OB in a lazarette might reduce the chance of theivery, but
it increases the chance of flooding... those wells get a surge up in
them at every wave, your engine could go under water 500 times and you
wouldn't see it. Many of the also amplify noise, and choke the engine.
They keep that traditional counter stern looking sweet, though.

That's been my experience with a dozen or so boats equipped with
outboards in wells. YMMV




In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap
(ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really
sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most.
It's the means to an end.


The economic advantage doesnt always outweight the practical downside,
mileage will vary....Boat repair can be a hobby to a degree.


And it also gives you a boat that you know all about, and can fix, and
can rely on.

Yes, if you have got the time and passion

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/logs11-04.htm
You may be interested in the issues with a 2 year old cat on a
circumnaviation by novice sailors.

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/


Much so called "wisdom" is perception also:}}
"Genius is limited and stupidity is unlimited"


That's an excellent quote. One of my favorites is
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the
intelligent are full of doubt"
--Bertrand Russell

Fresh Breezes-- Doug King

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:24:46 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:


Michael wrote:
Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.


The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.
///
Fresh Breezes-- Doug King


Hmmm...seems to me that the steering torque on a rudder can be
reduced, zeroed or reversed - depending on the balance area fraction
selected. The rule of thumb, I seem to recall is 25% area forward for
minimal torque - more than that and the torque is reversed, giving
unpleasant positive feedback effect.

Brian Whatcott Altus, OK

On second thought does a balanced rudder put less force on the rudder
post or just on the tiller?

Wild guess, probably both?

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:

snip

As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard
with more negatives.

Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient,
and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put
both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations.

The advantages of an outboard are
1- cost
2- winter storage in your closet
3- service by removing it to the shop
4- maneuverability (*if* the installation is such that the helmsman can
swivel it)


Saildrive issues link:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/showthr... threadid=1666

The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.


Michael wrote:
I think it would be more accurate to say that the force by the
helmsman requires less physical effort with a balanced rudder.


Yes, that's what I was trying to say.


I can not think of anything that would reduce the load on a rudder
post....


Going very slowly!


I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings
you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders..

Probably not in the 30' size range.

Fancy racing boats have top-notch rudder post bearings, and of course
bigger boats have to have bearings appropriate to the load... if they're
well designed of course...

It's a worthwhile upgrade to a boat that will spend a lot of time
sailing hard on autopilot.


Humm.... I think I would rather have a bushing, I dont think a bearing
in a water environment would last or be as reliable as a bushing...


???
There's this new hi-tech miracle product called "grease." Of course it's
assumed that the bearing will get some maintenance, and will eventually
have to be replaced. In well-designed boats this is provided for.

Actually modern miracle hi-tech stuff has made it very easy to re-work
rudder post bearings, or bushings if you prefer. After all a bushing in
this case is the same thing as a bearing. It's not even necessary to
pull the rudder & post out, just polish & wax it then pour in the
miracle goop.



As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard
with more negatives.

Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient,
and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put
both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations.


For the lower unit the boat must be dry docked to service it,

So? That's true of any inboard. With a conventional drive you have a
cutlass bearing which can't be serviced unless the boat is pulled.
Again, it's assumed that these things are going to get proper attention
during the life of the boat.


... where a
OB on a laz maybe pulled at any time. COST...

And if you get a trailerable boat, you can haul it out even cheaper,
then take it home with you. Very inexpensive (if you already have a
place to keep it, that is).


Is a saildrive generally prefered over a conventional IB? I dont
think so, why is that?


Depends on who you're talking to. The saildrive has a lot of advantages
but many people still don't like them. It's a matter of personal taste
to some degree.




check out this excellent pictoral of a OB in a laz as well as general
project boat:
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/s...9&page=1&pp=15


I think this guy is making a few mistakes. For example, removing the
shelves below the V-berth... those were almost certainly there as
structural members. The cockpit drains look nice though.

It's funny you should point to a Pearson Ariel as an example of how
wonderful OB wells are. I sailed on one of these for years (back when
they were much newer than they are now) and it is one of the boats that
formed my current opinion (generally unfavorable) of OB wells. It's not
the worst of the bunch, though.

Thanks for the links, interesting reading & pictures.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:50:20 GMT, (Michael) wrote:


Bushings, bearings, tomatoes, tom-ah-tows... the question is what does
the boat you want have, and what shape are they in. Many boats have
rather fancy double-race needle bearings for the lower rudder post
"bushing." The loads here can be tremendous when sailing hard.

Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.

I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings
you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders..

J35s came with Harken rudder bearings. They eventually corroded and
Harken doesn't make them any more AFIK.





Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"I'll tell you, being in prison isn't, isn't all that, uh, that it's cracked up to be." RM Nixon

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:24:46 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:


Michael wrote:
Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.


The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.
///
Fresh Breezes-- Doug King


Hmmm...seems to me that the steering torque on a rudder can be
reduced, zeroed or reversed - depending on the balance area fraction
selected. The rule of thumb, I seem to recall is 25% area forward for
minimal torque - more than that and the torque is reversed, giving
unpleasant positive feedback effect.

Sure, but the topic was rudder bearings. They don't get loade by
torque, but by radial loads from lift generated by the rudder.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Nuke the gay whales for Jesus" -- anon T-shirt

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:02:39 -0400, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 03:24:46 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:


Michael wrote:
Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.


The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.
///
Fresh Breezes-- Doug King


Hmmm...seems to me that the steering torque on a rudder can be
reduced, zeroed or reversed - depending on the balance area fraction
selected. The rule of thumb, I seem to recall is 25% area forward for
minimal torque - more than that and the torque is reversed, giving
unpleasant positive feedback effect.

Sure, but the topic was rudder bearings. They don't get loade by
torque, but by radial loads from lift generated by the rudder.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


Yes, you're right of course. And this was Doug's point, I think.

Brian W Altus, OK

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:42:20 -0500, DSK wrote:

Michael wrote:
Boat Buying Sailboat

I have been doing research on boat purchasing.


Working on a very obscure Ph.D thesis?

Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure

It has been suggested that the NADA values of boats are relative to
the asking price and not the actual selling price.

Don't think so, AFAIK it's based on the reported sale prices.


Many of the boats I have seen lack any detailing. Namely, it can be
seen by how clean the heads floor is.


Almost every single boat for sale will have been lacking in preventative
maintenance. It's the nature of the beast... but you want to look very
carefully at potential problems to avoid the nightmares that are
*definitely* out there.

Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need:

- rudder rebuild

Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have
the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the
boat had some really really special characteristics.

Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also
exist.

Rudders probably get the most wear of any part of the boat even when
docked. Keel hung rudders have long been seen as a "blue water"
attribute, like full keels and heavy displacement. But they are
"unbalanced" require more effort, And dont lend themselfs to steering
in reverse well. A spade rudder is a considerably more of a rebuild
issue than any other style. I could think of many more siginificant
issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild.

Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000

- standing rigging replacement

Again, why? Careful inspection... some boats will need standing rigging
replaced, but I don't believe in simply "changing out" stuff that's
perfectly good. One often hears about people replacing & up-sizing their
standing rigging... this is downright stupid, unless one believes that
the boat designer was a moron... in which case one should buy a
different boat!

Standing rigging has little to do with the designer and the reason to
replace it. One guy in New Zeland actually uses galvinized standing
rigging, that is in salt water, of course. Now that may seem stupid,
but:
1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss)
2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure
-cheaper to replace

3 inorder to keep it in good condition requires a heck of a lot of
maintenance with coatings

Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and
couplings not the actual wire itself.

26ft = $1,200 stainless



- running rigging replacement

Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't
sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer.

Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block
replacement

- bottom paint

Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for
this. It's a regular maintenance item.

If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different
story. This is an issue that usually nixes a boat purchase in many
instances.

- motor maintenance or replacement

If the motor is that bad, look for a different boat.

If it is an inboard, ya look for a different boat as replacement costs
is $3,000-6,000 min.
I like the concept of outboards on sailboats. That are like a
saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a
lazerette. Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB.

- battery replacement

Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't
have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor
batteries. Not much money or hassle here.

If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400 many
cruisers spend $1,200 for more amp hours

- many have original sails

See above, same as running rigging. OTOH if a boat has 'original sails'
then it probably has not had other items replaced, maintained, or cared
for, and may indicate a boat best left alone. Sails are more expensive
that you'd believe.

Average working life of a sail? Yes they cost more than you think. A
new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus


- cushion replacement and uphostering

See above under "running rigging."

I have seen costs of over $1,000 for this...cloth and foam work

- port lights

??


The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older
26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a
price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the
purchase price?

Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands.

Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like
working with fiberglass....this issue would qualify as the ultimate
project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there
is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat, and it seems (from
my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue.
Around the stanchions or hardware not too bad but full decks, forget
it.


How would you figure what the value of a boat was given the above or
combination thereof?

Would the cost be:
-what it would cost to have a third party do the work like the Yard


If you're not willing & able to do the work yourself, don't get a boat.
Seriously. Even a relatively small boat with some combination of the
above problems will keep you in penury to the end of your days, and
you'll spend far far more than the boat will ever conceivably be worth.

I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy
more. Many that bought boats didnt consider them "project boats" but
after 1- 1 1/2 years latter, that what they have become.

Yes many spend more than the boat will ever be worth like the Hr28
some guy suggest in this thread. And I think that when it come time
for them to sell the boat they dont price it realistically. Based on
boats generally that Hr28, although it seems to have nice ammenties,
still the unseen price is probably 1/3 of the asking at best on a good
day. If it was a triton in bristol condition with a new inboard, the
current asking price might be close to being realistic. The guy
selling it just isnt realistic or not really interested in selling it,
he should read the info at the URL provided.

The URL provided for the boat buying process is par excelances...



-would you figure what the cost of the parts are and not consider the
value of the work that you would do yourself.


Yes... although my own work is priceless, it's time spent on the boat
and thus is (mostly) recreation in itself.

I wouldnt necessarly consider fiberglass, bottom jobs
recreation....many but not all would rather have purchased a boat
requiring less work in hindsight....my research shows...
Its sort of the girl friend time VS "quality time" thing

How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is?


By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at
what else is on the market.

Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition
what would it be worth. Then reduce that by all the calculated hard
costs (parts) not including your labour, but including some specilized
labour (ie engine rebuilding, machining work, etc) then figure the
price. A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Perceived and even actual condition is subjective in many instances.

As a percentage, is there a standard that you would use to make an
offer less than asking price?


If the boat is cherry & is just what you want, 10% less. If there are
'issues' then it's roll yer own. A boat that's been on the market for a
long time may change hands for a tiny fraction of the original ask
price. Others simply get left for the boatyard to recycle.

Likely....





If you get a remarkable deal, go with it.

The "deal of a lifetime" comes along about once a week.

Not so sure about that...survey say many look for at least 6 months
the average about 1 1/2 years before buying...



prodigal1 wrote:
alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around
you want to buy a great old boat, buy this

http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm

boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River
no relation to seller


Seems like a nice boat, but isn't the price a bit steep?

Not a serious seller....


Ryk wrote:
Why pick that one over this ODay 28 on Martha's Vineyard?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8730 118&rd=1

There are incredible deals out there on boats this size because people
are mostly after something bigger and/or newer.

You're kidding, right? It's true that the Hinterhoeller is a much nicer
& better built boat, but is it really 3 1/2 X nicer? Consider relative
costs.

OTOH the HR-28 might take less updating than the O'Day, and will
certainly fetch a higher price when you eventually sell it. I've seen
the case made that an older higher priced higher quality boat is
actually less expensive to own in the long run.

Fresh water VS sal****er boats.....
The HR28 a nice boat and design of its time although I dont like the
ballast to weight ratio, for an older boat a Triton or an Alberg would
be preferable to me.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King