On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:36:21 -0500, prodigal1 wrote:

Michael wrote:
Boat Buying Sailboat
snip
alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around
you want to buy a great old boat, buy this

http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm

boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River
no relation to seller

Why pick that one over this ODay 28 on Martha's Vineyard?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8730 118&rd=1

There are incredible deals out there on boats this size because people
are mostly after something bigger and/or newer. Being in the right
place at the right time can make a big difference. My son bought a
fundamentally sound Newport 27 with smooth running Atomic 4 for
US$2225 last fall in Port Huron.

Ryk

Michael wrote:
Boat Buying Sailboat

I have been doing research on boat purchasing.


Working on a very obscure Ph.D thesis?

It has been suggested that the NADA values of boats are relative to
the asking price and not the actual selling price.

Don't think so, AFAIK it's based on the reported sale prices.


Many of the boats I have seen lack any detailing. Namely, it can be
seen by how clean the heads floor is.


Almost every single boat for sale will have been lacking in preventative
maintenance. It's the nature of the beast... but you want to look very
carefully at potential problems to avoid the nightmares that are
*definitely* out there.

Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need:

- rudder rebuild

Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have
the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the
boat had some really really special characteristics.

- standing rigging replacement

Again, why? Careful inspection... some boats will need standing rigging
replaced, but I don't believe in simply "changing out" stuff that's
perfectly good. One often hears about people replacing & up-sizing their
standing rigging... this is downright stupid, unless one believes that
the boat designer was a moron... in which case one should buy a
different boat!

- running rigging replacement

Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't
sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer.

- bottom paint

Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for
this. It's a regular maintenance item.

- motor maintenance or replacement

If the motor is that bad, look for a different boat.

- battery replacement

Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't
have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor
batteries. Not much money or hassle here.

- many have original sails

See above, same as running rigging. OTOH if a boat has 'original sails'
then it probably has not had other items replaced, maintained, or cared
for, and may indicate a boat best left alone. Sails are more expensive
that you'd believe.


- cushion replacement and uphostering

See above under "running rigging."

- port lights

??


The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older
26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a
price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the
purchase price?

Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands.


How would you figure what the value of a boat was given the above or
combination thereof?

Would the cost be:
-what it would cost to have a third party do the work like the Yard


If you're not willing & able to do the work yourself, don't get a boat.
Seriously. Even a relatively small boat with some combination of the
above problems will keep you in penury to the end of your days, and
you'll spend far far more than the boat will ever conceivably be worth.



-would you figure what the cost of the parts are and not consider the
value of the work that you would do yourself.


Yes... although my own work is priceless, it's time spent on the boat
and thus is (mostly) recreation in itself.

How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is?


By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at
what else is on the market.

As a percentage, is there a standard that you would use to make an
offer less than asking price?


If the boat is cherry & is just what you want, 10% less. If there are
'issues' then it's roll yer own. A boat that's been on the market for a
long time may change hands for a tiny fraction of the original ask
price. Others simply get left for the boatyard to recycle.



If you get a remarkable deal, go with it.

The "deal of a lifetime" comes along about once a week.



prodigal1 wrote:
alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around
you want to buy a great old boat, buy this

http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm

boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River
no relation to seller


Seems like a nice boat, but isn't the price a bit steep?


Ryk wrote:
Why pick that one over this ODay 28 on Martha's Vineyard?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8730 118&rd=1

There are incredible deals out there on boats this size because people
are mostly after something bigger and/or newer.

You're kidding, right? It's true that the Hinterhoeller is a much nicer
& better built boat, but is it really 3 1/2 X nicer? Consider relative
costs.

OTOH the HR-28 might take less updating than the O'Day, and will
certainly fetch a higher price when you eventually sell it. I've seen
the case made that an older higher priced higher quality boat is
actually less expensive to own in the long run.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:42:20 -0500, DSK wrote:

Michael wrote:
Boat Buying Sailboat

I have been doing research on boat purchasing.


Working on a very obscure Ph.D thesis?

Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure

It has been suggested that the NADA values of boats are relative to
the asking price and not the actual selling price.

Don't think so, AFAIK it's based on the reported sale prices.


Many of the boats I have seen lack any detailing. Namely, it can be
seen by how clean the heads floor is.


Almost every single boat for sale will have been lacking in preventative
maintenance. It's the nature of the beast... but you want to look very
carefully at potential problems to avoid the nightmares that are
*definitely* out there.

Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need:

- rudder rebuild

Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have
the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the
boat had some really really special characteristics.

Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also
exist.

Rudders probably get the most wear of any part of the boat even when
docked. Keel hung rudders have long been seen as a "blue water"
attribute, like full keels and heavy displacement. But they are
"unbalanced" require more effort, And dont lend themselfs to steering
in reverse well. A spade rudder is a considerably more of a rebuild
issue than any other style. I could think of many more siginificant
issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild.

Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000

- standing rigging replacement

Again, why? Careful inspection... some boats will need standing rigging
replaced, but I don't believe in simply "changing out" stuff that's
perfectly good. One often hears about people replacing & up-sizing their
standing rigging... this is downright stupid, unless one believes that
the boat designer was a moron... in which case one should buy a
different boat!

Standing rigging has little to do with the designer and the reason to
replace it. One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing
rigging, that is in salt water, of course. Now that may seem stupid,
but:
1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss)
2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure
-cheaper to replace

3 inorder to keep it in good condition requires a heck of a lot of
maintenance with coatings

Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and
couplings not the actual wire itself.



- running rigging replacement

Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't
sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer.

Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block
replacement

- bottom paint

Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for
this. It's a regular maintenance item.

If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different
story. This is an issue that usually nixes a boat purchase in many
instances.

- motor maintenance or replacement

If the motor is that bad, look for a different boat.

If it is an inboard, ya look for a different boat as replacement costs
is $3,000-6,000 min.
I like the concept of outboards on sailboats. That are like a
saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a
lazerette. Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB.

- battery replacement

Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't
have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor
batteries. Not much money or hassle here.

If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400

- many have original sails

See above, same as running rigging. OTOH if a boat has 'original sails'
then it probably has not had other items replaced, maintained, or cared
for, and may indicate a boat best left alone. Sails are more expensive
that you'd believe.

Average working life of a sail? Yes they cost more than you think. A
new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus


- cushion replacement and uphostering

See above under "running rigging."

I have seen costs of over $1,000 for this...

- port lights

??


The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older
26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a
price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the
purchase price?

Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands.

Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like
working with fiberglass....this issue would qulaify as the ultimate
project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there
is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat, and it seems (from
my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue.
Around the stanchions or hardware not too bad but full decks, forget
it.


How would you figure what the value of a boat was given the above or
combination thereof?

Would the cost be:
-what it would cost to have a third party do the work like the Yard


If you're not willing & able to do the work yourself, don't get a boat.
Seriously. Even a relatively small boat with some combination of the
above problems will keep you in penury to the end of your days, and
you'll spend far far more than the boat will ever conceivably be worth.

I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy
more. Many thant bought boats didnt consider them "project boats" but
after 1- 1 1/2 years latter, that what they have become.

Yes many spend more than the boat will ever be worth like the H28 some
guy suggest in this thread. And I think that when it come time for
them to sell the boat they dont price it realistically. Based on
boats generally that H28, although it seems to have nice ammenties,
still the unseen price is probably 1/3 of the asking at best on a good
day. If it was a triton in bristol condition with a new inboard, the
current asking price might be close to being realistic. The guy
selling it just isnt realistic or not really interested in selling it,
he should read the info at the URL provided.

The URL provided for the boat buying process is par excelances...



-would you figure what the cost of the parts are and not consider the
value of the work that you would do yourself.


Yes... although my own work is priceless, it's time spent on the boat
and thus is (mostly) recreation in itself.

I wouldnt necessarly consider fiberglass, bottom jobs
recreation....many but not all would rather have purchased a boat
requiring less work in hindsight....my research shows...
Its sort of the girl friend time VS "quality time" thing

How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is?


By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at
what else is on the market.

Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition
what would it be worth. Then reduce that by all the calculated hard
costs (parts) not including your labour, but including some specilized
labour (ie engine rebuilding, machining work, etc) then figure the
price. A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Perceived condition is subjective in many instances.

As a percentage, is there a standard that you would use to make an
offer less than asking price?


If the boat is cherry & is just what you want, 10% less. If there are
'issues' then it's roll yer own. A boat that's been on the market for a
long time may change hands for a tiny fraction of the original ask
price. Others simply get left for the boatyard to recycle.

Likely....





If you get a remarkable deal, go with it.

The "deal of a lifetime" comes along about once a week.

Not so sure about that...survey say many look for at least 6 months
the average about 1 1/2 years before buying...



prodigal1 wrote:
alright that's enough ;-) quite ****ing around
you want to buy a great old boat, buy this

http://www.clic.net/~dcooper/hinterh...a%20vendre.htm

boat is located just outside Windsor, Ontario on the Detroit River
no relation to seller


Seems like a nice boat, but isn't the price a bit steep?

Not a serious seller....


Ryk wrote:
Why pick that one over this ODay 28 on Martha's Vineyard?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...8730 118&rd=1

There are incredible deals out there on boats this size because people
are mostly after something bigger and/or newer.

You're kidding, right? It's true that the Hinterhoeller is a much nicer
& better built boat, but is it really 3 1/2 X nicer? Consider relative
costs.

OTOH the HR-28 might take less updating than the O'Day, and will
certainly fetch a higher price when you eventually sell it. I've seen
the case made that an older higher priced higher quality boat is
actually less expensive to own in the long run.

Fresh water VS sal****er boats.....
The HR28 a nice boat and design of its time although I dont like the
ballast to weight ratio, for an older boat a Triton or an Alberg would
be preferable to me.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Michael wrote:
about the HR28
Not a serious seller....
oh it's serious and it'll sell for close to that
those who know, will look closely at such a boat
plus, if you spending $US, you'd get a %20 bonus these days

Michael wrote:
Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure


The purchasing of a boat is relatively straighforward. One can (and
should IMHO) draw up a contract embodying the offer to buy the boat,
similar to a sale contract on a house. It should protect the interests
of both parties... the times I have drawn up such documents, of course I
have tended to slant it a bit more my own way, OTOH many brokers offer a
"standard contract" that is all but an open invitiation for him to pick
the buyer's pocket.

Perhaps you meant that you were researching *boats* with the possibility
of buying one yourself in the near future?


Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need:

- rudder rebuild

Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have
the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the
boat had some really really special characteristics.


Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also
exist.


Bushings, bearings, tomatoes, tom-ah-tows... the question is what does
the boat you want have, and what shape are they in. Many boats have
rather fancy double-race needle bearings for the lower rudder post
"bushing." The loads here can be tremendous when sailing hard.

BTW one point in favor out outboard rudders is the strength & simplicity
of this configuration.


.... I could think of many more siginificant
issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild.


If that was the only thing with an otherwise perfect (for you) boat, sure.

Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000


Again, IMHO is you can't do a job like this yourself you should be
considering buying the boat. If you don't have the knowledge, at the vey
least, how will you know if the boatyard does it *right*?


- standing rigging replacement

Standing rigging has little to do with the designer

???

Who do you think specifies the type, size, placement, etc etc?

What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about
"upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so
macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1-
rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind
strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and
3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may
actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast.

Unless one has reason to believe that either the designer didn't know
what he doing, or the builder skimped, one should only replace standing
rigging with the same type & size.


... One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing
rigging,

A lot of people here use galvanized, too.

... Now that may seem stupid,
but:
1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss)

???

If the wire itself is slightly stronger, it's also less flexible and the
connections are correspondingly weaker.


2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure
-cheaper to replace


Much much cheaper... the only real advantage IMHO.



Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and
couplings not the actual wire itself.


Exactly.



- running rigging replacement

Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't
sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer.


Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block
replacement

Shucks I've spent well more than that on a 19 footer... a racing boat,
to be sure...


- bottom paint

Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for
this. It's a regular maintenance item.


If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different
story.

Blisters are not covered under "bottom paint." Blister repair can be
anything from minor annoyance to major structural nightmare.





I like the concept of outboards on sailboats.

I do too, up to a certain size. Beyond 26' it can be a problem both in
mass of the boat & pitching out the prop. But an outboard makes the boat
marvelously maneuveralbe (provided you can reach it handily to swivel it
around).



... That are like a
saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a
lazerette.

Every arrangement I've ever seen like this was a total PITA. Of course,
better arrangements may exist.


... Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB.


Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher;
reliability is often lower too.


- battery replacement

Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't
have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor
batteries. Not much money or hassle here.


If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400

Not if you know where to shop. Besides, the battery itself is rarely the
problem with "dead batteries." What's the point in buying new batteries
if the wiring & charging are going to kill it again in short order?



Average working life of a sail?

Depends very much on the sail & usage. The hardest things for a sail to
endure are flogging or flapping, and UV exposure. A sail that is left
hoisted to slap around freely will be tatters in a few days. A sail that
is left uncovered... especially in the harsh Southern sun... will be
rotten in a few months if not weeks.

Personally, I am rather spoiled by having had very nice racing sails. I
hate seeing baggy blown out rags that kill the boat's pointing, give
excessive & erratic helm, and heel it way over. Sails that get regular
use should probably be replaced in 3 ~ 5 years.


Yes they cost more than you think. A
new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus



The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older
26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a
price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the
purchase price?

Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands.


Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like
working with fiberglass....

Does anybody really *like* working with fiberglass? I'm pretty good at
it myself (pardon a little bragging) but it is out of necessity, not
because I like it. I'd rather do wood work (which I'm not very good at)
or mechanical work any day.


....this issue (delamination or structural repair)
would qulaify as the ultimate
project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there
is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat

Depends very much on the boat & it's care. IMHO many many boats will not
need significant fiberglass work... or structural work... in 40+ years
much less 20.

... and it seems (from
my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue.

Sure. Some people bought AMC Gremlins, too



I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy
more.

And what your budget will allow. Many people badly underestimate the
cost of repairs & upgrades needed by a boat they're considering buying.



How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is?


By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at
what else is on the market.


Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition
what would it be worth.

But that depends on the buyer, too. For example, I know a man who not
only paid an already high asking price, but also paid the owner/seller
handsomely to do some small upgrades & deliver the boat. This buyer had
a lot of money, was looking for a particular boat in great shape (it was
a nostalgia thing) and didn't have the time himself. He wanted to
recapture some happy memories of sailing and had the budget to indulge
himself. Later he decided it was too expensive, sold the boat at a big
loss, and now crews for other people when he has time to sail.

In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap
(ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really
sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most.
It's the means to an end.


... A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Perceived condition is subjective in many instances.


You have gained much wisdom

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:00:10 -0400, DSK wrote:

Michael wrote:
Maybe due diligents? Certainly far from obscure


The purchasing of a boat is relatively straighforward. One can (and
should IMHO) draw up a contract embodying the offer to buy the boat,
similar to a sale contract on a house. It should protect the interests
of both parties... the times I have drawn up such documents, of course I
have tended to slant it a bit more my own way, OTOH many brokers offer a
"standard contract" that is all but an open invitiation for him to pick
the buyer's pocket.

Perhaps you meant that you were researching *boats* with the possibility
of buying one yourself in the near future?


Most boats at the 20 year mark probably need:

- rudder rebuild

Why? Bearing rebuild, maybe. If I suspected that a boat needed to have
the rudder itself rebuilt, I'd pass... even if it was free... unless the
boat had some really really special characteristics.


Many actually use bushings, although I believe that bearings also
exist.


Bushings, bearings, tomatoes, tom-ah-tows... the question is what does
the boat you want have, and what shape are they in. Many boats have
rather fancy double-race needle bearings for the lower rudder post
"bushing." The loads here can be tremendous when sailing hard.

Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.

I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings
you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders..

I doubt that anyone has ever purchased a boat having everthing they
want - unless it is custom built and designed for them. Buying a boat
for most of us is a compromise...overall you may like the boat and
many aspects of it. For example a lead vs cast iron keel. Or a spade
rudder verses transom rudder, etc, etc.....

BTW one point in favor out outboard rudders is the strength & simplicity
of this configuration.

Or a keel hung rudder....

though these rudder..by design tend not to be "balanced" rudders when
the leading edge of the rudder is inline with the rudder shaft....


.... I could think of many more siginificant
issues that would nix a purchase of a boat than a rudder rebuild.


If that was the only thing with an otherwise perfect (for you) boat, sure.

Yard cost could range anywhere from $900-3,000


Again, IMHO is you can't do a job like this yourself you should be
considering buying the boat. If you don't have the knowledge, at the vey
least, how will you know if the boatyard does it *right*?

That can be said in virtually every situation and realm of anything
just not boats...

A wild guess is that 80% of boat owners dont know how to do this or
80% of any other work that may be required to be done, yet they own
boats. Probably why much maintanence is to attended to, amongest
other practical reasons.


- standing rigging replacement

Standing rigging has little to do with the designer

???

In terms of it replacement, sure designers initially determine the
original config. and I have yet to see anyone change that (from an
original design aspect). Very rarely would the design of the standing
rigging be changed on a production boat. Most riggers want the old
rigging to duplicate the new rigging.


Who do you think specifies the type, size, placement, etc etc?

Originally the designer, but that has nothing to do with the reason
per say of the replacement when replaced, Or the original design as
being the reason for the replacement.

What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about
"upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so
macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1-
rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind
strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and
3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may
actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast.

The Guy who circumnavigated on a Cal 25 did upgrade the standing
rigging to 1/4" and did extensive mods...

Yes there are downsides to upgrading the standing rigging to a larger
size, one increment in size would not make a difference, negatively
and probably be more of a positive depending on its use.

Unless one has reason to believe that either the designer didn't know
what he doing, or the builder skimped, one should only replace standing
rigging with the same type & size.

Generally, yes, thats what pro riggers do. Although one increment
increase has no negative effect other than cost. But it is sort of
like determining what the thickness of the glass layup should be,a
definate cost determinate. Standard "practical rule" for anchors is
what ever the size is recommended go up one size.

How long should standing rigging last, at what point should you
consider its replacement?


... One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing
rigging,

A lot of people here use galvanized, too.

Here? Where?
I have personally have not seen any on a standard production boat
retro fitted with galvanized. But I do see the postive aspect of its
use. I would rather replace it more often at that cost than figure
the SS rigging will last as long as the rest of the boat.

... Now that may seem stupid,
but:
1 the metal is suppose to be stronger (Brian Toss)

???

If the wire itself is slightly stronger, it's also less flexible and the
connections are correspondingly weaker.

Not necessarly...rod rigging isnt meant to necessarly be flexible



2 it will show signs of failure before actual failure
-cheaper to replace


Much much cheaper... the only real advantage IMHO.



Many failure in the rigging actually are the clevis pins, tangs and
couplings not the actual wire itself.


Exactly.



- running rigging replacement

Yep. You'll need to replace running rigging every so often anyway. Don't
sweat it, just tot up the projected expense and subtract from your offer.


Yep. Cost estimate? guess$300-700 26ft'er depending on block
replacement

Shucks I've spent well more than that on a 19 footer... a racing boat,
to be sure...

Thats for a standard 26 production boat cruiser depending...


- bottom paint

Ditto above, except that you won't get far marking off the price for
this. It's a regular maintenance item.


If it is only anti-fouling yes. If it is osmosis repair - different
story.

Blisters are not covered under "bottom paint." Blister repair can be
anything from minor annoyance to major structural nightmare.





I like the concept of outboards on sailboats.

I do too, up to a certain size. Beyond 26' it can be a problem both in
mass of the boat & pitching out the prop. But an outboard makes the boat
marvelously maneuveralbe (provided you can reach it handily to swivel it
around).

Yes.

As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard
with more negatives. And there are enough boats over 26ft that have
them. And Outboards come in 15", 20" and 25". And outboard on a
transom over 26 is NG but in a lazarette still my pref. even over 26ft



... That are like a
saildrive, but not an actual saildrive but actually an outboard in a
lazerette.

Every arrangement I've ever seen like this was a total PITA. Of course,
better arrangements may exist.

That is my opinion with the outboard of the transom unless the transom
has a "U" provision (cutout) for the outboard.


... Repair, replacement is a lesser cost with an OB.


Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher;
reliability is often lower too.

Point for the lazerrete config.....


- battery replacement

Why? Again, not a big deal... get a smart charger if the boat doesn't
have one, and then go to a farm supply store for some truck/tractor
batteries. Not much money or hassle here.


If you want or need a 400aHr battery set probably over $400

Not if you know where to shop. Besides, the battery itself is rarely the
problem with "dead batteries." What's the point in buying new batteries
if the wiring & charging are going to kill it again in short order?



Average working life of a sail?

Depends very much on the sail & usage. The hardest things for a sail to
endure are flogging or flapping, and UV exposure. A sail that is left
hoisted to slap around freely will be tatters in a few days. A sail that
is left uncovered... especially in the harsh Southern sun... will be
rotten in a few months if not weeks.

Personally, I am rather spoiled by having had very nice racing sails. I
hate seeing baggy blown out rags that kill the boat's pointing, give
excessive & erratic helm, and heel it way over. Sails that get regular
use should probably be replaced in 3 ~ 5 years.


Yes they cost more than you think. A
new maint for a 26ft $1,100 plus



The most signicant would be deck moisture or delamination. On a older
26 ft sailing crusier that needed a recore what would you figure as a
price of this repair and how much would or should it effect the
purchase price?

Free, or maybe they should pay you to take it off their hands.


Probably.....but it depends how extensive it is and if you like
working with fiberglass....

Does anybody really *like* working with fiberglass? I'm pretty good at
it myself (pardon a little bragging) but it is out of necessity, not
because I like it. I'd rather do wood work (which I'm not very good at)
or mechanical work any day.


....this issue (delamination or structural repair)
would qulaify as the ultimate
project boat. Problably one of the most siginificant deal nixer there
is. But some can be expected on any 20 year boat

Depends very much on the boat & it's care. IMHO many many boats will not
need significant fiberglass work... or structural work... in 40+ years
much less 20.

Even if the damage to the deck is limited to points of hardware
attachment, that is fairly significant, although not compared to most
of the deck replacement. There probably isnt a single boat that does
not have core issues to some degree.

... and it seems (from
my research) many are willing to accept some degree of this issue.

Sure. Some people bought AMC Gremlins, too



I guess it a decision between repairing or sailing and which you enjoy
more.

And what your budget will allow. Many people badly underestimate the
cost of repairs & upgrades needed by a boat they're considering buying.

Seems that when I figure the "needs" the final cost is more than the
boat is worth....pretty standard. Boating is a pleasure that is like
a consumable, problem is that many dont see it that way when they sell
it. Like I refered to the URL for boat buying....says it all.



How would you determine what the actual worth of the boat is?


By figuring how badly you want it... one way to compare is to look at
what else is on the market.


Hummm...The way I see it is for the age of a boat in bristol condition
what would it be worth.

But that depends on the buyer, too. For example, I know a man who not
only paid an already high asking price, but also paid the owner/seller
handsomely to do some small upgrades & deliver the boat. This buyer had
a lot of money, was looking for a particular boat in great shape (it was
a nostalgia thing) and didn't have the time himself. He wanted to
recapture some happy memories of sailing and had the budget to indulge
himself. Later he decided it was too expensive, sold the boat at a big
loss, and now crews for other people when he has time to sail.

Not a common situation....

In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap
(ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really
sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most.
It's the means to an end.

The economic advantage doesnt always outweight the practical downside,
mileage will vary....Boat repair can be a hobby to a degree.


... A boat is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
Perceived condition is subjective in many instances.


You have gained much wisdom

Much so called "wisdom" is perception also:}}
"Genius is limited and stupidity is unlimited"

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Bushings, bearings, tomatoes, tom-ah-tows... the question is what does
the boat you want have, and what shape are they in. Many boats have
rather fancy double-race needle bearings for the lower rudder post
"bushing." The loads here can be tremendous when sailing hard.


Michael wrote:
Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.


The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.

I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings
you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders..

Probably not in the 30' size range.

Fancy racing boats have top-notch rudder post bearings, and of course
bigger boats have to have bearings appropriate to the load... if they're
well designed of course...

It's a worthwhile upgrade to a boat that will spend a lot of time
sailing hard on autopilot.


I doubt that anyone has ever purchased a boat having everthing they
want - unless it is custom built and designed for them.

Even then, you just can't get everything. I think there's a law.



Again, IMHO is you can't do a job like this yourself you should be
considering buying the boat. If you don't have the knowledge, at the vey
least, how will you know if the boatyard does it *right*?


That can be said in virtually every situation and realm of anything
just not boats...

A wild guess is that 80% of boat owners dont know how to do this or
80% of any other work that may be required to be done, yet they own
boats.

IMHO that's a wild overestimate. Most boat owners I know (mostly
mid-size sailboats) know how to do a wide variety of technical things
and all basic maintenance. The stuff that gets done by hired help is
either really demanding & technical, perhaps requiring special tools...
like testing injectors or timing injector pumps... or really tedious &
awfule, like sanding off old bottom paint.



Standing rigging has little to do with the designer

???


In terms of it replacement, sure designers initially determine the
original config. and I have yet to see anyone change that (from an
original design aspect).

I have. In a very few cases did it turn out to be a wise move.

... Very rarely would the design of the standing
rigging be changed on a production boat.

Depends on who is doing what. A a relatively common change is adding an
inner stay for a staysail.



What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about
"upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so
macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1-
rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind
strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and
3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may
actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast.


The Guy who circumnavigated on a Cal 25 did upgrade the standing
rigging to 1/4" and did extensive mods...


Yep, Dave Martin. He stayed in Oriental, NC for quite a while. Some of
what he did made good sense... putting on larger standing rigging did
not. In fact (as I said) from an engineering standpoint it can be
harmful. Where does all the added stress from this stronger rigging go?
It doesn't disappear!



Yes there are downsides to upgrading the standing rigging to a larger
size, one increment in size would not make a difference

Yes, it would. There would be a difference in weight aloft, in windage,
in stress generated from the additional tension needed to keep that
heavier gage rigging from shock loading, and in any event (as I said)
the standing rigging loads are determined by the boat's righting moment.
The strongest possible wind will not impose any more strain on it.
However the heavier gage will require greater tension and will have less
elasticity and will probably overstress the chainplates and will
definitely place a greater compression load on the mast.

I have never yet heard of anybody putting on a thicker mast because they
want a tougher more seaworthy boat.

In short, putting on heavier standing rig is good *only* if it was
undersized originally. In any other possible case, it is detrimental to
the boat's performance and seaworthiness. Period.



How long should standing rigging last, at what point should you
consider its replacement?


Depends on type & service.

The thing that really kills standing rigging is crevice corrosion in the
swaged terminals. That's by far the most common point for failure.
Another common one is roller furlers unlaying the forestay cable.
After that would probably be fatigue from improperly toggled
turnbuckles. I have also seen a rig come down when the jib sheet pulled
out the cotter rings from the clevis pins.




... One guy in New Zeland actully uses galvinized standing
rigging,

A lot of people here use galvanized, too.


Here? Where?

I'm on the middle US East Coast.

I have personally have not seen any on a standard production boat
retro fitted with galvanized.

I have. Not all that common, but maybe there's a higher percentage of
people that aren't embarassed to shop at the farm & truck supply around
here.

.... But I do see the postive aspect of its
use. I would rather replace it more often at that cost than figure
the SS rigging will last as long as the rest of the boat.

Get Sta-Loks. You'll never need to replace anything but the very
inexpensive cones.


If the wire itself is slightly stronger, it's also less flexible and the
connections are correspondingly weaker.


Not necessarly...rod rigging isnt meant to necessarly be flexible


Yep, that's a different can o'worms. I don't have much experience with
rod rigging... in fact none at all with replacing it, specifically...
but it seems to be much longer lived due to the lack of swaged
terminals... and anyway not very many 30' and under production boats
have rod rigging, do they?




As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard
with more negatives.

Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient,
and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put
both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations.

The advantages of an outboard are
1- cost
2- winter storage in your closet
3- service by removing it to the shop
4- maneuverability (*if* the installation is such that the helmsman can
swivel it)

Pretty much everything else about them is a negative. Fuel economy &
heavy weather performance are terrible.

Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher;
reliability is often lower too.


Point for the lazerrete config.....

Putting the OB in a lazarette might reduce the chance of theivery, but
it increases the chance of flooding... those wells get a surge up in
them at every wave, your engine could go under water 500 times and you
wouldn't see it. Many of the also amplify noise, and choke the engine.
They keep that traditional counter stern looking sweet, though.

That's been my experience with a dozen or so boats equipped with
outboards in wells. YMMV




In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap
(ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really
sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most.
It's the means to an end.


The economic advantage doesnt always outweight the practical downside,
mileage will vary....Boat repair can be a hobby to a degree.


And it also gives you a boat that you know all about, and can fix, and
can rely on.


Much so called "wisdom" is perception also:}}
"Genius is limited and stupidity is unlimited"


That's an excellent quote. One of my favorites is
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the
intelligent are full of doubt"
--Bertrand Russell

Fresh Breezes-- Doug King

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:


Michael wrote:
Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.


The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.
///
Fresh Breezes-- Doug King


Hmmm...seems to me that the steering torque on a rudder can be
reduced, zeroed or reversed - depending on the balance area fraction
selected. The rule of thumb, I seem to recall is 25% area forward for
minimal torque - more than that and the torque is reversed, giving
unpleasant positive feedback effect.

Brian Whatcott Altus, OK

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:
(snip)
Michael wrote:
Think "balanced" vs "unbalanced" rudders....power steering vs manual.


The balance area of a rudder reduces the perceived load on the helm, but
does *not* reduce the load on the rudder post.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the force by the
helmsman requires less physical effort with a balanced rudder.

I can not think of anything that would reduce the load on a rudder
post....

I am not aware of any production boat that was built with the bearings
you suggest. I though such beasts do exist for rudders..

Probably not in the 30' size range.

Fancy racing boats have top-notch rudder post bearings, and of course
bigger boats have to have bearings appropriate to the load... if they're
well designed of course...

It's a worthwhile upgrade to a boat that will spend a lot of time
sailing hard on autopilot.

Humm.... I think I would rather have a bushing, I dont think a bearing
in a water environment would last or be as reliable as a bushing...



A wild guess is that 80% of boat owners dont know how to do this or
80% of any other work that may be required to be done, yet they own
boats.

IMHO that's a wild overestimate. Most boat owners I know (mostly
mid-size sailboats) know how to do a wide variety of technical things
and all basic maintenance. The stuff that gets done by hired help is
either really demanding & technical, perhaps requiring special tools...
like testing injectors or timing injector pumps... or really tedious &
awfule, like sanding off old bottom paint.




Standing rigging has little to do with the designer


In terms of it replacement, sure designers initially determine the
original config. and I have yet to see anyone change that (from an
original design aspect).

I have. In a very few cases did it turn out to be a wise move.

... Very rarely would the design of the standing
rigging be changed on a production boat.

Depends on who is doing what. A a relatively common change is adding an
inner stay for a staysail.

Ya but thats not a mod like separating two shrouds from a single chain
plate, or mounting the chain plate on the outboard of the hull,
etc....
a inner stay isnt a mod of the existing rig but an addition to it



What I had in mind is the excessively salty type who brags about
"upgrading" his standing rigging to the next larger size, because it so
macho to brag about sailing in high winds. The issue here is that 1-
rigging is sized to the boat's righting moment regadless of wind
strength and 2- heavier rigging will dregarde the boats performance and
3- because of the difficulty in getting the tensions correct, may
actually weaken the overall rig & bring down the mast.


Yep, Dave Martin. He stayed in Oriental, NC for quite a while. Some of
what he did made good sense... putting on larger standing rigging did
not. In fact (as I said) from an engineering standpoint it can be
harmful. Where does all the added stress from this stronger rigging go?
It doesn't disappear!



Yes there are downsides to upgrading the standing rigging to a larger
size, one increment in size would not make a difference

Yes, it would. There would be a difference in weight aloft, in windage,
in stress generated from the additional tension needed to keep that
heavier gage rigging from shock loading, and in any event (as I said)
the standing rigging loads are determined by the boat's righting moment.
The strongest possible wind will not impose any more strain on it.
However the heavier gage will require greater tension and will have less
elasticity and will probably overstress the chainplates and will
definitely place a greater compression load on the mast.

I dont necessarly disagree with you but from all those who have
upgraded one size I have never heard any issue as a result from the
end user or a rigger....

I have never yet heard of anybody putting on a thicker mast because they
want a tougher more seaworthy boat.

In short, putting on heavier standing rig is good *only* if it was
undersized originally. In any other possible case, it is detrimental to
the boat's performance and seaworthiness. Period.


.... But I do see the postive aspect of its
use. I would rather replace it more often at that cost than figure
the SS rigging will last as long as the rest of the boat.

Get Sta-Loks. You'll never need to replace anything but the very
inexpensive cones.

Yes they are better than the Norseman ones from the test results I
have read.


As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard
with more negatives.

Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient,
and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put
both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations.

For the lower unit the boat must be dry docked to service it, where a
OB on a laz maybe pulled at any time. COST...

Is a saildrive generally prefered over a conventional IB? I dont
think so, why is that?

Multihulls have saildrives or OB's I would rather have the OB's

check out this excellent pictoral of a OB in a laz as well as general
project boat:
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/s...9&page=1&pp=15

you should go through all 15 pages

The advantages of an outboard are
1- cost
2- winter storage in your closet
3- service by removing it to the shop
4- maneuverability (*if* the installation is such that the helmsman can
swivel it)

Pretty much everything else about them is a negative. Fuel economy &
heavy weather performance are terrible.

Very true, but then risk of theivery or submergence or damage is higher;
reliability is often lower too.


Point for the lazerrete config.....

Putting the OB in a lazarette might reduce the chance of theivery, but
it increases the chance of flooding... those wells get a surge up in
them at every wave, your engine could go under water 500 times and you
wouldn't see it. Many of the also amplify noise, and choke the engine.
They keep that traditional counter stern looking sweet, though.

That's been my experience with a dozen or so boats equipped with
outboards in wells. YMMV




In my case, I have always bought bargain-basement boats for very cheap
(ie within my budget) and fixed them up myself. But it's really
sailing... both racing & cruising... with my family that I enjoy most.
It's the means to an end.


The economic advantage doesnt always outweight the practical downside,
mileage will vary....Boat repair can be a hobby to a degree.


And it also gives you a boat that you know all about, and can fix, and
can rely on.

Yes, if you have got the time and passion

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/logs11-04.htm
You may be interested in the issues with a 2 year old cat on a
circumnaviation by novice sailors.

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/


Much so called "wisdom" is perception also:}}
"Genius is limited and stupidity is unlimited"


That's an excellent quote. One of my favorites is
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the
intelligent are full of doubt"
--Bertrand Russell

Fresh Breezes-- Doug King

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:12:53 -0400, DSK wrote:

snip

As far as I am concerned a saildrive unit is essentially an outboard
with more negatives.

Like what? The newer saildrives are great. Less trouble, more efficient,
and neater installation, than a conventional inboard.... you can put
both the engine weight and the prop in more advantageous locations.

The advantages of an outboard are
1- cost
2- winter storage in your closet
3- service by removing it to the shop
4- maneuverability (*if* the installation is such that the helmsman can
swivel it)


Saildrive issues link:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/showthr... threadid=1666