"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot fishcatcher
(net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in news:XOednRrWJbfxjqbfRVn-
:

(reminder from original: So, given that it's just some outlets, and not a
supply to a mains
distribution, with all that wattage, how would we normally use it?


Why can't we just plug the loads into it? Plug the boat into it, if you
like....just like the dock. Of course, you'd should install a transfer
switch to keep you from feeding the dock into it, or any other inverter
that doesn't have one.

Most things on Lionheart run on DC. A couple of things that don't are the
little microwave oven we paid $15 (new!) for and the laptop power supply
and printer power supply for WEFAX charts at sea. For those, we have a 1KW
Radio Shack inverter mounted right next to the battery switches inside the
engine compartment over the monsters to keep the inverter fan noise out of
the boat and the big cables to it to a minimum length. A length of #14
drop cord snakes its way through to overstuffed wireways to the nav station
where I installed a 115VAC standard 6-outlet power strip to plug the
various computer loads into it. A second custom drop cord runs from the
inverter to a dual outlet in a handibox behind the microwave in the galley.

I also ran a control cable from the power switch inside the inverter over
to a microswitch mounted on a neat little plate in a hole at the nav
station used by the former owner for something that needed filling. This
gives the inverter remote control to switch it on and off. A panel-mounted
neon indicator connected to the 120VAC in the nav station power strip lets
me know the inverter is on and, in fact, producing 120VAC power. When the
microwave is running, my DC clamp-on ammeter shows it drawing about 33A at
13.8VDC to heat dinner. Even at the dock, the microwave runs off the
inverter. We plug the computer stuff into a shore-power outlet by the
inverter's power strip.

I doubt many here will be powering the shore power throughout the boat with
the battery killing inverter, don't you?.....

3KW is way overkill because the boats can't provide DC to 3KW for very
long....

"Nothing is funnier than a boater with a new 4KW inverter carrying his
electric heater down the dock with that smug grin on his face....(c;"

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:29:58 -0500, Larry W4CSC
wrote:

"Nothing is funnier than a boater with a new 4KW inverter carrying his
electric heater down the dock with that smug grin on his face....(c;"

================================================== ==

4 KW?

No problem:

http://solarwindworks.com/Products/B.../batteries.htm

There are many new boats being equipped right from the factory with 10
to 12 KW inverters, gigundo battery banks and automatic generator
start.

http://tinyurl.com/5tqud

You just need a bigger boat.

Hi, Larry, and thanks for the thought provoking, left below for reference.

However, one snippet which I don't understand - can you elaborate?

I doubt many here will be powering the shore power throughout the boat
with
the battery killing inverter, don't you?.....

Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days suggests a static
load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any electrical
device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the power replaced
(which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted, our own power company
should be able to cope with extended periods of no-replacement) - how's this
different?

We have yet to decide about the capacity of the inverter we'll use. Likely
the mikey or coffeemaker will be the biggest draw; I assume that will want
something on the order of 1500w. I have a 1/3hp grinder/polisher and a
skilsaw which might also have a pretty good startup load, so I'm thinking of
2kw as my "solution" to house power.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts (and
even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and wind), we'll
want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and shorepower.

As we don't yet know how we'll use the computer and entertainment stuff, we
assume we'll want to have our outlets available everywhere they are now, as
well as some other places I'll install in the next few weeks. None of those
loads are very big, of course, but running drop cords isn't my ideal power
solution, even if they are in raceways. So, back to the question of central
power (and switchability for shore power/house power) and what to do...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, inching toward completion

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

Why can't we just plug the loads into it? Plug the boat into it, if you
like....just like the dock. Of course, you'd should install a transfer
switch to keep you from feeding the dock into it, or any other inverter
that doesn't have one.

Most things on Lionheart run on DC. A couple of things that don't are the
little microwave oven we paid $15 (new!) for and the laptop power supply
and printer power supply for WEFAX charts at sea. For those, we have a
1KW
Radio Shack inverter mounted right next to the battery switches inside the
engine compartment over the monsters to keep the inverter fan noise out of
the boat and the big cables to it to a minimum length. A length of #14
drop cord snakes its way through to overstuffed wireways to the nav
station
where I installed a 115VAC standard 6-outlet power strip to plug the
various computer loads into it. A second custom drop cord runs from the
inverter to a dual outlet in a handibox behind the microwave in the
galley.

I also ran a control cable from the power switch inside the inverter over
to a microswitch mounted on a neat little plate in a hole at the nav
station used by the former owner for something that needed filling. This
gives the inverter remote control to switch it on and off. A
panel-mounted
neon indicator connected to the 120VAC in the nav station power strip lets
me know the inverter is on and, in fact, producing 120VAC power. When the
microwave is running, my DC clamp-on ammeter shows it drawing about 33A at
13.8VDC to heat dinner. Even at the dock, the microwave runs off the
inverter. We plug the computer stuff into a shore-power outlet by the
inverter's power strip.

I doubt many here will be powering the shore power throughout the boat
with
the battery killing inverter, don't you?.....

3KW is way overkill because the boats can't provide DC to 3KW for very
long....

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot
fishcatcher (net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in
:

Hi, Larry, and thanks for the thought provoking, left below for
reference.

However, one snippet which I don't understand - can you elaborate?

I doubt many here will be powering the shore power throughout the
boat
with
the battery killing inverter, don't you?.....

Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;


We have yet to decide about the capacity of the inverter we'll use.
Likely the mikey or coffeemaker will be the biggest draw; I assume
that will want something on the order of 1500w. I have a 1/3hp
grinder/polisher and a skilsaw which might also have a pretty good
startup load, so I'm thinking of 2kw as my "solution" to house power.

2KW is fine.....for INTERMITTENT loads.


As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator = 5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.


As we don't yet know how we'll use the computer and entertainment
stuff, we assume we'll want to have our outlets available everywhere
they are now, as well as some other places I'll install in the next
few weeks. None of those loads are very big, of course, but running
drop cords isn't my ideal power solution, even if they are in
raceways. So, back to the question of central power (and
switchability for shore power/house power) and what to do...

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:58:23 -0500, Larry W4CSC
wrote:
As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

==========================
The better grades of marine inverter/chargers have built in, automatic
transfer switches. This is the most convenient arrangement for
permanent installations. The inverter has a hard wired AC input
coming from your distribution panel, and a hard wired AC output going
back to the panel. When the inverter senses AC voltage on the input
side (either from your generator or shorepower), it automatically
switches out of invert mode and into charge mode.

Unfortunately these units are considerably more expensive than the
Walmart variety but they are really the right way to go for a long
term installation.

Practical Sailor just reviewed inverter/chargers and recommended the
new Xantrex MS2000.

A quick Google search popped up a few sites selling it for about
$1500.

http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/ms2000.html

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

The inverter has a hard wired AC input
coming from your distribution panel, and a hard wired AC output going
back to the panel.

Please clarify the above, as wiring both the input and output of an
inverter to a distribution panel IS really a bad idea, and doesn't
conform to ABS or NEC codes........


Me

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:47:47 GMT, Me wrote:

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

The inverter has a hard wired AC input
coming from your distribution panel, and a hard wired AC output going
back to the panel.

Please clarify the above, as wiring both the input and output of an
inverter to a distribution panel IS really a bad idea, and doesn't
conform to ABS or NEC codes........

The panel would be split in some way, so the inverter output can't be
connected back to its own input.

One possibility would be to have a breaker feeding only the
inverter/charger, and the inverter's output feeding a couple of
breakers that are electrically isolated from the main input - those
breakers would get power only through the inverter's transfer relay.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:47:47 GMT, Me wrote:

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

The inverter has a hard wired AC input
coming from your distribution panel, and a hard wired AC output going
back to the panel.

Please clarify the above, as wiring both the input and output of an
inverter to a distribution panel IS really a bad idea, and doesn't
conform to ABS or NEC codes........

============================================

The distribution panel (or behind it) is usually the only place where
you can find a centralized point where you can interrupt the power.

The inverter has to be wired in such a way that it can never see an
independant source of AC power at its output terminals. As long as
both the AC input to the inverter/charger and the inverter output pass
through seperate circuit breakers, there should be no issue with
wiring codes.

How would you do it?

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

The distribution panel (or behind it) is usually the only place where
you can find a centralized point where you can interrupt the power.

The inverter has to be wired in such a way that it can never see an
independant source of AC power at its output terminals. As long as
both the AC input to the inverter/charger and the inverter output pass
through seperate circuit breakers, there should be no issue with
wiring codes.

How would you do it?

Bzzzzt, Wrong answer..... would you like to try again, for what is
behind Curtain No. 2 ?

Never EVER have a Input Feed and an Output Feed in the same Panel
and on the same buss. That has got to be the dumbest Idea I have ever
seen, posted to a newsgroup, and "Totaly" against ABS and NEC Electrical
Codes. Yes, it is possible to so such a thing, but to keep people from
doing so, is why there are ABS and NEC codes in the first place.

The correct way to do this is to have an Input Distribution Panel,
and an Inverted Output Distribution Panel, and any interconnection
directly between the two, would need to be thru an InterLocked Transfer
Switch.

Shore Power, Generator, would be interlocked so they are mutually
exclusive inputs to the Input Distribution Panel. That panel then
feeds all noninverted loads thru individual breakers, and the Inverter
input, thru its own individual Breaker. The Output Distribution Panel
would also have it's own individual breaker in the Input Distribution
Panel for Transfer Power Feeds.

Inverter output, Transfer Power Feed, would be interlocked so as to
be mututally exclusive inputs to the Inverted Output Distribution
Panel. All inverted power circuits would then be individually
breakered from this panel.

This keeps the Genset and Shorepower mutally exclusivly seperate
from each other so as no combination of breaker settings could
ever connect them together.

This also keeps the Inverter Input and Output mutually exclusivly
seperate from each other so that no combination of breaker settings
could ever connect them together.

Any other system, that does not provbide the above Mutual Exclusivity
will certainly, and eventually, let out the MAGIC SMOKE, that makes the
electrons run thru the wires. Either you, the mate, or just a friend
aboard, will make a breaker setting mistake, and out will come the
MAGIC SMOKE, and the results will be BAD.....


Me

Wayne.B wrote in
:

Practical Sailor just reviewed inverter/chargers and recommended the
new Xantrex MS2000.


Question - Is there an ad for Xantrex (or any of its associated companies)
in Practical Sailor?

Take a look.

The PRIMARY purpose of ANY boating magazine is to SELL PRODUCTS. That's
why they all look like spam, including those "reviews".

Every see Practical Sailor say, "This product sucks!"?