On 28/09/2013 12:57 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 21:06:13 +0300, injipoint
wrote:



It's my understanding that nuclear subs are powered by steam
turbines which generate electricity for the electric motors that
run the propellers. The steam for the turbines comes from the
heat of the fission reactor. Lower a few more fuel rods and it
doesn't take but a few minutes for the core to heat up and the
cooling water temperature rises along with it.

Not sure but I think it might take longer. I know they take time
to lower the power, like a day or about that but I don't know enough
about the process to know the start up bit.

I was a USN boilerman on a DDG.
Some years ago, but here's how it worked than.
Nuke or oil-fired is the means to generate steam in boilers.
Whether nuke or oil, steam is steam. Boilers is where it all starts.
Steam powers turbines. For main propulsion, generators, and
auxiliaries like pumps and forced draft blowers feeding the boilers.
Steam also powers evaporators to produce fresh water.

Lighting off a cold boiler is the only lengthy process. Took about
2-3 hours on my ship, but since boilers were only "cold iron" in a
safe port like Norfolk, Va, they are normally hot and ready and
powering the ship even in port. Not much steam demand when not
propelling the ship, so they are basically idling.
When cold iron in a "safe" port, electric cables and fresh water lines
are hooked up to the ship.
You need electricity to go from cold iron to a hot boiler.
We could probably go from cold iron to "full hot" in less than an
hour, but it's better to bring up heat/pressure slowly to avoid heat
and expansion shock, so we always took a measured pace, firing only
one of the boiler 5 burners.

Nowadays steam is dead - except for nukes. As far as I know non-nukes
are now all gas turbine, diesel, turbo-diesel, etc.

Here's how it works with a steam-powered ships like injipoint
observed. I'll use my DDG as an example, but there won't be much
variance. Just replace rod movement for "burners."
In port a forward and aft boiler are hot and running on one burner
each. Each fireroom has 2 boilers, but normally only one is hot.
Running all boilers at full power gains very little extra speed.
Boilers have scheduled maintenance even underway, and often the idle
boiler is open and not operational for this reason.

The forward fireroom feeds steam to the forward engineroom main
turbines. That runs the starboard shaft.
Aft runs aft and port shaft.

Even on my ship built in 1961 most boiler controls were automatic.
Feed water, oil pressure, etc.
The main "humans" operating the boilers were the burner man and the
console operator. Operating pressure was 1275 psi.
Others on various fireroom watch stations monitored temps and
pressures, and were ready to take action for "casualties."
When steam demand began dropping pressure, the burnerman manually
pushed in another burner, and lit it by pulling down the oil control
valve.
Oil on a burner was either shut or wide open.
The console operator had little to do except adjust oil pressure when
demand was low, and adjust "excess" air, to avoid stack smoke.
But the console also provided an overview of many systems.

So you leave port on maybe 2 of the 5 burners, with low oil pressure.
Say you're doing 4 knots. The skipper wants to avoid a bottom
structure by backing one screw. Not sure about how the ship is
actually controlled, but I've seen this many times.
He sends a telegraph command to the engineroom powering that shaft.
Can't remember if that comes to the fireroom simultaneously, or the
engineroom repeats it.
Full astern. The engineroom cranks opens their main throttle, and
starts pulling steam. In the fireroom a full astern bell means the
burnerman pushes in and light all burners as fast as he can, because
all hell will break loose. As steam pressure drops, everything winds
up to maintain pressure, It's like banshees screaming. Forced draft
blowers, feed pumps, oil pumps, air flow, burners burning, steam
flowing.

There are limits. The engineroom throttleman isn't supposed to take
pressure below 1120 psi. That's the prescribed pressure for boiler
shutdown. At sea there's no electricity except that provided by
steam. You need the steam to run the pumps to restart the boilers.
I've seen it get close, and a couple times warned the throttlemen I
was going to shut it down. They listened.


My ship was designed for ASW, so we spent a lot of time chasing Soviet
subs. We were armed with nuke ASROC missiles.
Top speed was 27 knots. We were 4500 tons.
But she was geared for ASW, so she would squat and gain speed pretty
quickly when you opened the throttles. No roostertail, but a pretty
massive stern hump.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/01003.htm
That says top speed 33 knots. Maybe with 4 boilers and overload
burner tips. Never did that when I was aboard for 3 1/2 years.
1964-67. Flank speed was 27 knots. We would usually measure speed
by screw shaft "turns," not knots. I never heard more than 27 knots
mentioned, and can't remember the turns, maybe 40-50 max.

Going from 1/3 ahead to full to flank is the usual speed progression
of ships. If not done abruptly, there's no real excitement.
From dead to flank is a lot of action and noise.
From flank to full astern or vice versa is hectic, but only done in
open sea during "exercises."
It's been a long time, but my memory says port maneuvers were the
"scariest." From full astern to full ahead repeatedly.
Of course I couldn't see what was happening from the fireroom, but my
imagination always said we about to run something down or hit a dock.

Sorry if this is "too much information."

No way is that "too much"! That's excellent.
I hope you have this stuff written down for your family etc.
I never tire of hearing tales of how things actually ran and what
happened in the workplace. You get more than enough of the political
history - we should hear more of the stories of the people who did the
jobs.
Thanks for taking the time.

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 09:17:27 +0300, injipoint
wrote:


I hope you have this stuff written down for your family etc.
I never tire of hearing tales of how things actually ran and what
happened in the workplace. You get more than enough of the political
history - we should hear more of the stories of the people who did the
jobs.

No, I'm not a diarist. That's Skip.
Most people would find it all boring and inconsequential.
You kinda "have to be there."

I failed to mention something about operating a boiler during
maneuvers. The opposite of steam demand.
When the skipper is sending full astern and flank speed demands,
demanding all the steam the boilers can produce, and heating
all the refractory materials, tubes, headers and drums to the extreme,
he might suddenly telegraph stop.
If the burnerman isn't very fast in cutting out all but one burner,
you can pop a safety. On my ship, the first one popped at 1320 psi.
Never saw that happen on my ship, but some close calls.
The results of that are consequential, because it requires some safety
valve maintenance, and blows many clumps of soot from the stack,
scattering it topside, and royally ****ing off the deck apes, who have
to clean it up.
I've popped safety valves as part of testing them, and the sound is
deafening in the fireroom, but the fireroom is very noisy anyway.
Once you get to steaming with 4 burners it's all shouting.
One time I was coming back from liberty and a ship similar to mine
popped a safety at D&S piers in Norfolk as I walked by, maybe a few
hundred yards away. Don't know why.
It was the most horrendous sound I ever heard.

I'd wager that my mates have forgotten most all of it.
Many took no interest in steam, and just did as they were told.
I consider all that a bit differently, and remember all the jobs I've
done, however lowly, their purpose, their high and low points.
I've felt satisfaction at sweeping a floor well. And utter boredom in
tedious jobs.
Sometimes I've felt humbled by standing on the shoulders of "great
men" whose combined work could assemble something like that ship I
served on. And proud to be an important part of its operation.
And sometimes I've witnessed utter stupidity.
For example, I had a damage control assignment where my task was
practiced by finding the obvious chalk markings put on the ASROC deck
by the Weapons officer.
Those chalk markings represented something I was to pick up, put in
normal water bucket, and dump over the side. My only garb besides my
skivvies, shoes,socks, dungarees and white hat was a pair a rubber
gloves.
What was I to pick up and carry in a bucket to toss over the side?
Plutonium.
The scary thing is I probably would have done it.

I think many here have their own good tales. And of an age to tell
tales that just don't occur any more. Time moves on.
And the most interesting tales to me are the ones that no longer can
happen. Old steam machinery is an example.
I'll relate later when I was a Lilliputian in U.S. Steel, dealing with
an 800 pound slugging wrench, using a 2000 pound hammer.
I do believe I'm now the only man alive who can tell that tale.
And the only one to write it down.

On 28/09/2013 5:46 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 09:17:27 +0300, injipoint
wrote:


I hope you have this stuff written down for your family etc.
I never tire of hearing tales of how things actually ran and what
happened in the workplace. You get more than enough of the political
history - we should hear more of the stories of the people who did the
jobs.

No, I'm not a diarist. That's Skip.
Most people would find it all boring and inconsequential.
You kinda "have to be there."

I failed to mention something about operating a boiler during
maneuvers. The opposite of steam demand.
When the skipper is sending full astern and flank speed demands,
demanding all the steam the boilers can produce, and heating
all the refractory materials, tubes, headers and drums to the extreme,
he might suddenly telegraph stop.
If the burnerman isn't very fast in cutting out all but one burner,
you can pop a safety. On my ship, the first one popped at 1320 psi.
Never saw that happen on my ship, but some close calls.
The results of that are consequential, because it requires some safety
valve maintenance, and blows many clumps of soot from the stack,
scattering it topside, and royally ****ing off the deck apes, who have
to clean it up.
I've popped safety valves as part of testing them, and the sound is
deafening in the fireroom, but the fireroom is very noisy anyway.
Once you get to steaming with 4 burners it's all shouting.
One time I was coming back from liberty and a ship similar to mine
popped a safety at D&S piers in Norfolk as I walked by, maybe a few
hundred yards away. Don't know why.
It was the most horrendous sound I ever heard.

I'd wager that my mates have forgotten most all of it.
Many took no interest in steam, and just did as they were told.
I consider all that a bit differently, and remember all the jobs I've
done, however lowly, their purpose, their high and low points.
I've felt satisfaction at sweeping a floor well. And utter boredom in
tedious jobs.
Sometimes I've felt humbled by standing on the shoulders of "great
men" whose combined work could assemble something like that ship I
served on. And proud to be an important part of its operation.
And sometimes I've witnessed utter stupidity.
For example, I had a damage control assignment where my task was
practiced by finding the obvious chalk markings put on the ASROC deck
by the Weapons officer.
Those chalk markings represented something I was to pick up, put in
normal water bucket, and dump over the side. My only garb besides my
skivvies, shoes,socks, dungarees and white hat was a pair a rubber
gloves.
What was I to pick up and carry in a bucket to toss over the side?
Plutonium.
The scary thing is I probably would have done it.

I think many here have their own good tales. And of an age to tell
tales that just don't occur any more. Time moves on.
And the most interesting tales to me are the ones that no longer can
happen. Old steam machinery is an example.
I'll relate later when I was a Lilliputian in U.S. Steel, dealing with
an 800 pound slugging wrench, using a 2000 pound hammer.
I do believe I'm now the only man alive who can tell that tale.
And the only one to write it down.


I still maintain that it's important that these things are recorded from
the "doer's" point of view. In my day job, I travelled extensively to
relieve manager's on leave. Whenever I went to a new town, I went on
day one or two to the local newsagent to find books on local history
written, usually, by the children of older citizens who related the
tales verbatim or close to. I found them fascinating and still do.
You don't need to be a diarist, just a teller of tales!

I have a friend who used to frequent this group who lives on the
east coast, perhaps SC or NC. He has wonderful tales of his exploits
in the Navy and he only worked in support ships. They were interesting
times for sure. You could get away with a lot more **** that you'd get
sued for today.

Greetings,
Was that friend who used to frequent this post one "Larry"?

I have been wondering what has happened to him a I haven't seen his name and he was a frequent poster.

I much appreciated his very useful and practical advice.

Ciao
Peter

On 29/09/2013 3:14 PM, wrote:
Greetings,
Was that friend who used to frequent this post one "Larry"?

I have been wondering what has happened to him a I haven't seen his name and he was a frequent poster.

I much appreciated his very useful and practical advice.

Ciao
Peter

Called in on him on our way down the ICW and spent two wonderful
days eating laughing and generally enjoying life. He's lived
several lifetimes already and his adventures are extraordinary.