"barret bondon" wrote in message
...
Why did the engine run at all ?
Atomic 4 in a 1977 27 foot Columbia. Boat had sat all last summer.
Engine started and ran fine for half an hour, got us 200 yards outside
the breakwater ( not a rough sea, but more motion than in the harbor)
where it quit. I pulled a fuel line; lots of water in the gas.
Q: Why did it work at all ? Assuming the fuel/ water mix homogenized
out of the harbor and got drawn into the pump doesn't tell me how to
prevent this on the next boat. Where is the intake on most tanks ?
Water sinks to the bottom of course, and I assume the intake is at the
bottom of most tanks; in that case I never would have left the dock.

(not my boat, BTW !)




Water in fuel tanks is a common problem. It would seem to me that built-in
tanks should all have a small sump at the lowest part with a drain valve
to check for and get rid of any water that collects from condensation or
water in the fuel from dubious sources.

In lieu of that, you should install a large fuel/water separator filter in
the intake line and check and drain it frequently. Your theory of
'frothing' or mixing is probably why the motor ran OK for a while but when
things got a little rougher the engine quit because enough water got into
the carburetor so fill the float bowl.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Fri, 18 May 2012 13:01:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

Water in fuel tanks is a common problem. It would seem to me that built-in
tanks should all have a small sump at the lowest part with a drain valve
to check for and get rid of any water that collects from condensation or
water in the fuel from dubious sources.


Water in fuel tanks is a common problem but ABYC and USCG standards,
not to mention your insurance company, require that gasoline be drawn
from the top of the tank with a dip tube and no sump drains are
allowed. The risk of gasoline leaking into the bilge is too high.

In lieu of that, you should install a large fuel/water separator filter in
the intake line and check and drain it frequently.

That is the right solution but if mounted below decks with a gasoline
engine, the filter is not allowed to have a drain fitting.

Chances are that the engine initially ran OK because the water level
in the tank was below the dip tube pickup. Dip tubes never go all
the way to the bottom. As the boat moved around while underway,
water got picked up as the fuel sloshed around.

Detecting and getting rid of water in the bottom of a permanently
installed gasoline tank is difficult because no sump drain is allowed.
If your fill pipe goes straight down into the tank from the cockpit
you can put water sensing paste on the end of a stick and dip it to
the bottom. If the paste turns color, usually red or purple, you have
water on the bottom. The only way to remove it is with a plastic
tube and small transfer pump.

Google search: gasoline water sensing paste

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=gasoline%20water%20s&cp=28&g s_id=32&xhr=t&q=gasoline+water+sensing+paste&pf=p& output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=gasoline+water+sensing+paste&aq=f&aqi=&aql=& gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp= ca5e4e80e08f4ec0&biw=1015&bih=612

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 May 2012 22:20:08 -0400, WaIIy wrote:

On Fri, 18 May 2012 13:01:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"barret bondon" wrote in message
...
Why did the engine run at all ?
Atomic 4 in a 1977 27 foot Columbia. Boat had sat all last summer.
Engine started and ran fine for half an hour, got us 200 yards
outside
the breakwater ( not a rough sea, but more motion than in the harbor)
where it quit. I pulled a fuel line; lots of water in the gas.
Q: Why did it work at all ? Assuming the fuel/ water mix homogenized
out of the harbor and got drawn into the pump doesn't tell me how to
prevent this on the next boat. Where is the intake on most tanks ?
Water sinks to the bottom of course, and I assume the intake is at
the
bottom of most tanks; in that case I never would have left the dock.

(not my boat, BTW !)




Water in fuel tanks is a common problem. It would seem to me that
built-in
tanks should all have a small sump at the lowest part with a drain
valve
to check for and get rid of any water that collects from condensation
or
water in the fuel from dubious sources.

It's a gas tank, not a water heater.



In lieu of that, you should install a large fuel/water separator filter
in
the intake line and check and drain it frequently. Your theory of
'frothing' or mixing is probably why the motor ran OK for a while but
when
things got a little rougher the engine quit because enough water got
into
the carburetor so fill the float bowl.

Wilbur Hubbard

This is not an uncommon happening at all. You have an engine with fuel
throughout the system, at least back to the tank. You start the engine
and it begins to use fuel and eventually it begins to draw fuel from
the tank. Except that it isn't fuel, it is water - water being heavier
then fuel collects in the bottom of the tank where the fuel line inlet
is located. When this water from the tank reaches the carburetor or
injection pump, as the case may be, and the carbie or injectors start
to deliver water to the engine the engine quits.

Finally water does not mix with gasoline or diesel fuel in any
significant manner. Try it, put some fuel and water in a mayonnaise
jar and shake it up. as soon as you stop shaking the water settles out
of the fuel.

And before someone corrects me, yes, it is possible for fuel and water
to form an emulsion, but not by pouring water into a fuel tank.
--
Cheers,

Bruce



Hey, I'm amazed, Bruce. This is perhaps the very first time I have noted
you contributing something that made sense.

I still would have a sump and a drain valve in any internal tank on my
yacht (if I had fuel tanks in the yacht.) It's so dumb to NOT have them
just because there's a miniscule chance the valve might leak a little fuel
into the bilge. Only a dumbass would neglect to close and secure the valve
with a wire or a tie-wrap. etc. This is a case where insurance companies
can impose their will on sailors and boat builders because of catering to
the lowest common denominator dummy who would allow fuel to leak into the
bilge because he was too stupid to close and secure a simple valve.


Wilbur Hubbard

On Sat, 19 May 2012 14:38:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

It's so dumb to NOT have them
just because there's a miniscule chance the valve might leak a little fuel
into the bilge. Only a dumbass would neglect to close and secure the valve
with a wire or a tie-wrap. etc.

===

I've seen perfectly good valves develop slow, and sometimes not so
slow leaks. Have you ever seen a gasoline fire or explosion on a
boat? I've seen 3 and they are very spectacular. The risk of *any*
gasoline at all in the bilge is way too high.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 May 2012 14:38:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

It's so dumb to NOT have them
just because there's a miniscule chance the valve might leak a little
fuel
into the bilge. Only a dumbass would neglect to close and secure the
valve
with a wire or a tie-wrap. etc.

===

I've seen perfectly good valves develop slow, and sometimes not so
slow leaks. Have you ever seen a gasoline fire or explosion on a
boat? I've seen 3 and they are very spectacular. The risk of *any*
gasoline at all in the bilge is way too high.




A high quality ball valve rated for gasoline does not leak. An example:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/11...all_Valve.html

Simply stated, it is STUPID to have an installed fuel tank that you cannot
get water out of. The simple expedient of a sump built into the bottom of
the tank with a proper fuel ball valve which is easily accessible for
draining of water will eliminate all sorts of problems.

For example, one can get into a whole lot of trouble having an engine quit
at just the wrong time. Such an outage could even result in the loss of
the vessel and lives to boot. I think the risk of gasoline fire from a
properly fitted fuel tank drain valve is too small to worry about compared
to the consequences of not having one.

And, yes, I have seen two or three vessels catch on fire and burn. It's
pretty spectacular. But, in both cases they were diesel boats. Both had
propane tanks venting spectacular gouts of flame and eventual explosions.


Wilbur Hubbard

On Sat, 19 May 2012 16:04:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 19 May 2012 14:38:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

It's so dumb to NOT have them
just because there's a miniscule chance the valve might leak a little
fuel
into the bilge. Only a dumbass would neglect to close and secure the
valve
with a wire or a tie-wrap. etc.

===

I've seen perfectly good valves develop slow, and sometimes not so
slow leaks. Have you ever seen a gasoline fire or explosion on a
boat? I've seen 3 and they are very spectacular. The risk of *any*
gasoline at all in the bilge is way too high.




A high quality ball valve rated for gasoline does not leak. An example:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-tp/11...all_Valve.html

Simply stated, it is STUPID to have an installed fuel tank that you cannot
get water out of. The simple expedient of a sump built into the bottom of
the tank with a proper fuel ball valve which is easily accessible for
draining of water will eliminate all sorts of problems.

For example, one can get into a whole lot of trouble having an engine quit
at just the wrong time. Such an outage could even result in the loss of
the vessel and lives to boot. I think the risk of gasoline fire from a
properly fitted fuel tank drain valve is too small to worry about compared
to the consequences of not having one.

And, yes, I have seen two or three vessels catch on fire and burn. It's
pretty spectacular. But, in both cases they were diesel boats. Both had
propane tanks venting spectacular gouts of flame and eventual explosions.



Whatever you think, CG regs should be followed regarding gas.
Besides, you're looking at it the wrong way.
If you get a dose of water in the tank, all the drain valves in the
world won't help you out of trouble quickly.
Maybe just get you blown up.
The answer is high and low tank pickups, or a second tank.
Which could be small and better protected from water intrusion.
I don't have a boat and don't know the regs on fuel systems.
But I did operate boilers and fuel systems on Navy and merchant
vessels.
High and low fuel pickups and alternative tanks were the answer
to quickly recovering from a dose of water.
Works well.
Removing the water is an entirely different issue.

--
Vic

On Sun, 20 May 2012 07:06:06 +0700, Bruce
wrote:

But this does not disguise the fact that you obviously have limited
experience with boats, particularly sail boats which often have built
in tanks, usually deep in the bilges (to aid stability) which, being
the lowest things in the boat, preclude the use of "drain valves".

===

Wilbur uses an outboard motor thus reducing his tank complexity to the
bare minimum. :-)

On Sat, 19 May 2012 22:24:45 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 20 May 2012 07:06:06 +0700, Bruce
wrote:

But this does not disguise the fact that you obviously have limited
experience with boats, particularly sail boats which often have built
in tanks, usually deep in the bilges (to aid stability) which, being
the lowest things in the boat, preclude the use of "drain valves".

===

Wilbur uses an outboard motor thus reducing his tank complexity to the
bare minimum. :-)

Ah yes. the jerry can on the foredeck sort of fuel system.

--
Cheers,

Bruce