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#1
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
We had dinner with a buddy boat tonight. They commented that the barrier
coat they used had a brochure in it which described exactly what we are doing as particularly important to THEIR system, which they guarantee for some length of time (years). When I have the actual brochure in my hands I'll repeat it verbatim - along with the name (Interlux, I think) and product number - here in a followup. However, at least one manufacturer, and in particular, one which offers a guarantee, agrees that the only hope one has for a successful barrier coat is to do exactly what we're doing. The continued research we've been doing suggests that if the fiberglass isn't perfect in layup (materials, humidity, application techniques, etc.), once you START having blisters, you're going to continue to have blisters, no matter what you do about it. HOWEVER - the best you CAN do, apparently, is, indeed, to wet the hull and then pressure wash it, several times. Yesterday we wet it thoroughly. Today, new areas were visible (encouraging the now-liquid-ized stuff to come to the surface), albeit all still VERY small. The new cheapo pressure washer was applied to the surface next. Any blisters with the slightest amount of open area allowed water in under pressure, further lifting any non-perfectly bound glass, and, further, for the most part, causing it to depart the skin of the boat as, once the process started, the light stuff blew off, allowing access to more of it, and so on. So.... Not only does it work, but it's going to save me a lot of grinding to get the same areas removed for "packing" prior to the barrier coat. Those areas I'd already identified were, of course, the worst (if you can call an area of less than a dime in size "worst"), and were more prone to opening with the puny 1600PSI sprayer we have. However, a few more of these treatements, and I expect we'll have a VERY good remediation of the tiny blisters we have. Sure is fun to see the hull getting lighter as we wash off that tiny film of hydrolized compounds which have been making their way to the surface and darkening it slightly! L8R Skip, who MAY get some more pix up some time soon, after I get some of the PW series yet to be taken in and out of the camera... -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
#2
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... We had dinner with a buddy boat tonight. They commented that the barrier coat they used had a brochure in it which described exactly what we are doing as particularly important to THEIR system, which they guarantee for some length of time (years). When I have the actual brochure in my hands I'll repeat it verbatim - along with the name (Interlux, I think) and product number - here in a followup. However, at least one manufacturer, and in particular, one which offers a guarantee, agrees that the only hope one has for a successful barrier coat is to do exactly what we're doing. The continued research we've been doing suggests that if the fiberglass isn't perfect in layup (materials, humidity, application techniques, etc.), once you START having blisters, you're going to continue to have blisters, no matter what you do about it. HOWEVER - the best you CAN do, apparently, is, indeed, to wet the hull and then pressure wash it, several times. Yesterday we wet it thoroughly. Today, new areas were visible (encouraging the now-liquid-ized stuff to come to the surface), albeit all still VERY small. The new cheapo pressure washer was applied to the surface next. Any blisters with the slightest amount of open area allowed water in under pressure, further lifting any non-perfectly bound glass, and, further, for the most part, causing it to depart the skin of the boat as, once the process started, the light stuff blew off, allowing access to more of it, and so on. So.... Not only does it work, but it's going to save me a lot of grinding to get the same areas removed for "packing" prior to the barrier coat. Those areas I'd already identified were, of course, the worst (if you can call an area of less than a dime in size "worst"), and were more prone to opening with the puny 1600PSI sprayer we have. However, a few more of these treatements, and I expect we'll have a VERY good remediation of the tiny blisters we have. Sure is fun to see the hull getting lighter as we wash off that tiny film of hydrolized compounds which have been making their way to the surface and darkening it slightly! L8R Skip, who MAY get some more pix up some time soon, after I get some of the PW series yet to be taken in and out of the camera... -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." Skippy, you are myopic if you think spraying the hull with water is going to remove all the osmotic fluid from inside the laminate. The BEST your spraying technique is going to do is to wash off the fluid that has managed to migrate to the surface by oozing out of cracks and small holes in the laminate. In those areas not cracked or holed, the the osmotic fluid will remain inside the laminate and, even if you do barrier coat the works, unless you barrier coat BOTH inside and outside the osmosis will continue and so will the blisters. I'll say it again. To eliminate blisters completely the ONLY foolproof method that will work every time is extensive drying of the hull to diffuse and evaporate all the moisture that is causing the pressure that causes the blisters. This needs to be done in a very low humidity environment and might well take two years or more depending upon how soggy the laminate is. After the hull is dried, both the inside and outside of the laminate needs to be barrier coated. End of problem and the ONLY way to end the problem. What you are doing now is just a waste of time because blisters will return. GUARANTEED! Wilbur Hubbard |
#3
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
Skip,
I guess you are on the hard at that marina just south of the bridge. Does the City marina south of you still exist? I put in there for a few months just before the big hurricane which took Ft. Pierce apart. I heard the City marina was hard hit. Can you confirm or deny? Thanks. |
#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 09:05:08 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Flying Pig" wrote in message ... We had dinner with a buddy boat tonight. They commented that the barrier coat they used had a brochure in it which described exactly what we are doing as particularly important to THEIR system, which they guarantee for some length of time (years). When I have the actual brochure in my hands I'll repeat it verbatim - along with the name (Interlux, I think) and product number - here in a followup. However, at least one manufacturer, and in particular, one which offers a guarantee, agrees that the only hope one has for a successful barrier coat is to do exactly what we're doing. The continued research we've been doing suggests that if the fiberglass isn't perfect in layup (materials, humidity, application techniques, etc.), once you START having blisters, you're going to continue to have blisters, no matter what you do about it. HOWEVER - the best you CAN do, apparently, is, indeed, to wet the hull and then pressure wash it, several times. Yesterday we wet it thoroughly. Today, new areas were visible (encouraging the now-liquid-ized stuff to come to the surface), albeit all still VERY small. The new cheapo pressure washer was applied to the surface next. Any blisters with the slightest amount of open area allowed water in under pressure, further lifting any non-perfectly bound glass, and, further, for the most part, causing it to depart the skin of the boat as, once the process started, the light stuff blew off, allowing access to more of it, and so on. So.... Not only does it work, but it's going to save me a lot of grinding to get the same areas removed for "packing" prior to the barrier coat. Those areas I'd already identified were, of course, the worst (if you can call an area of less than a dime in size "worst"), and were more prone to opening with the puny 1600PSI sprayer we have. However, a few more of these treatements, and I expect we'll have a VERY good remediation of the tiny blisters we have. Sure is fun to see the hull getting lighter as we wash off that tiny film of hydrolized compounds which have been making their way to the surface and darkening it slightly! L8R Skip, who MAY get some more pix up some time soon, after I get some of the PW series yet to be taken in and out of the camera... -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." Skippy, you are myopic if you think spraying the hull with water is going to remove all the osmotic fluid from inside the laminate. The BEST your spraying technique is going to do is to wash off the fluid that has managed to migrate to the surface by oozing out of cracks and small holes in the laminate. In those areas not cracked or holed, the the osmotic fluid will remain inside the laminate and, even if you do barrier coat the works, unless you barrier coat BOTH inside and outside the osmosis will continue and so will the blisters. I'll say it again. To eliminate blisters completely the ONLY foolproof method that will work every time is extensive drying of the hull to diffuse and evaporate all the moisture that is causing the pressure that causes the blisters. This needs to be done in a very low humidity environment and might well take two years or more depending upon how soggy the laminate is. After the hull is dried, both the inside and outside of the laminate needs to be barrier coated. End of problem and the ONLY way to end the problem. What you are doing now is just a waste of time because blisters will return. GUARANTEED! Wilbur Hubbard And here's Willie-boy spouting his usual idiotic blather. Willie-boy I keep telling you to keep your mouth closed and people might think that you are a fool but then you open your mouth the while world knows it. I went to the trouble of giving you several references regarding osmosis which it is obvious that you didn't read, or can't comprehend. I can only assume that as they demonstrated that your antiquated ideas are totally incorrect you ignored them. Willie-boy. you can argue that the world is flat 'cause if it were a ball we'd all fall off', but that doesn't make you right. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 21:43:57 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: We had dinner with a buddy boat tonight. They commented that the barrier coat they used had a brochure in it which described exactly what we are doing as particularly important to THEIR system, which they guarantee for some length of time (years). When I have the actual brochure in my hands I'll repeat it verbatim - along with the name (Interlux, I think) and product number - here in a followup. However, at least one manufacturer, and in particular, one which offers a guarantee, agrees that the only hope one has for a successful barrier coat is to do exactly what we're doing. The continued research we've been doing suggests that if the fiberglass isn't perfect in layup (materials, humidity, application techniques, etc.), once you START having blisters, you're going to continue to have blisters, no matter what you do about it. Actually polyester composites are not waterproof and as the uncured chemicals are present in all layups, in some amounts, osmosis will occur in all polyester based laminates, in some degree, in time. The modern "treatment" is to initially lay up hull with an external layer of vinylester resin which is more waterproof then polyester and cheaper then epoxy. Your "barrier Coat" by the way, is simply epoxy and the important factor is to apply it in the thickness recommended. Probably two coats totaling about 12 - 16 mils. HOWEVER - the best you CAN do, apparently, is, indeed, to wet the hull and then pressure wash it, several times. Yesterday we wet it thoroughly. Today, new areas were visible (encouraging the now-liquid-ized stuff to come to the surface), albeit all still VERY small. The new cheapo pressure washer was applied to the surface next. Any blisters with the slightest amount of open area allowed water in under pressure, further lifting any non-perfectly bound glass, and, further, for the most part, causing it to depart the skin of the boat as, once the process started, the light stuff blew off, allowing access to more of it, and so on. So.... Not only does it work, but it's going to save me a lot of grinding to get the same areas removed for "packing" prior to the barrier coat. Those areas I'd already identified were, of course, the worst (if you can call an area of less than a dime in size "worst"), and were more prone to opening with the puny 1600PSI sprayer we have. However, a few more of these treatements, and I expect we'll have a VERY good remediation of the tiny blisters we have. Sure is fun to see the hull getting lighter as we wash off that tiny film of hydrolized compounds which have been making their way to the surface and darkening it slightly! L8R Skip, who MAY get some more pix up some time soon, after I get some of the PW series yet to be taken in and out of the camera... Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#6
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/BuyingBlisterBoat.htm
Wilbur, Read down to ***! Let's face it, an awful lot of boats have blisters, so that finding one that doesn't (or won't get them) can be a difficult proposition. The short answer is that if at all possible, you should try to avoid that, if for no other reason than the potential expense you may face in the future. That expense may not result from the absolute necessity to repair the blisters, but the position you may find yourself in when it comes time to sell the boat. Particularly with newer model boats, say 1 - 3 years old, it is not unusual for buyers demand a reduction in price, or that the blisters be repaired. For older boats, its usually much less of a problem, for the fact is that moderate blistering on an older boat rarely impedes the sale. Unfortunately, another fact of boating life is that there is a great deal of misinformation on this much talked-about subject. One common misconception is that blisters seriously weaken and/or damage boat hulls. In 30 years of surveying and examining around 4000 hulls, I have seen less than 10 cases where blisters have resulted in serious structural degradation of a hull where it was weakened to a point where some type of failure was immanent. What is a blister? First, let's understand that all fiberglass hulls absorb water to some degree because both the gel coat finish on the exterior, and the fiberglass reinforced plastic is porous. Since water is a solvent, it will react with the plastic resulting in the water and solvents in the plastic mixing to create a weak solvent solution, usually with styrene. This then softens the gel coat somewhat and, combined with a bit of gas or fluid pressure, results in the blister. Are blisters harmful? Yes, but. This is a question of how much harm. Blisters form at the interface between the gel coat and what is called the skinout mat, which is a layer of chopped, short-strand fiberglass that is used to prevent the coarser weave pattern of heavier fiberglass cloth from telegraphing through to the finish surface. You've probably seen boats with a checkerboard pattern showing on the surface, and this is the reason why. Now, fiberglass fabric, being made of bundles of very fine glass fibers, is very porous also, most especially the outer layer of mat. Once the gel coat absorbs water, the fibers in the mat that are unsaturated with resin then spread the water around via the capillary effect. Blistering involves only the gel coat and surface mat in 99% of the cases. This is due to the fact that the structural fabrics, such as roving, get saturated better. Its also because the water is less likely to penetrate beyond the mat and, even if it does, woven fabrics do not have the weak gel coat factor and are much too strong to allow whatever pressure may develop within a void to cause a separation. The incidence of blisters occurring within structural laminates is extremely small. Boat hull blisters If the resin used to make the hull is of a lower quality that will react with water, a process known as hydrolysis, which means nothing more than becoming saturated with water and dissolving, then the hull is poised to develop blisters. Many other factors also come into play here, such as how well the mat layer is bonded to the gel coat. Since the vast majority of blisters occur between the mat and gel coat (depicted in illustration above), this bond has to be fairly weak for the blistering process to occur. If the bond is strong, then blisters will not occur, even though there is a lot of water absorption. This is a very general, even generic, description of the blistering process. There are frequently numerous other factors involved which I will not address here. Aside from the damage it causes to the surface, most of the damage done by the blister is to the gel coat and the skin out mat, which is not a structural part of the hull laminate. Remember, the mat is only there to prevent the fabric pattern from showing through to the surface. The obvious question is now, "But isn't the water dissolving the rest of the plastic resin in the laminate?" The answer to that is "No, its not." At least not to any considerable degree. *** You may have noticed that I have not used the word "osmosis" that we hear so much these days. Technically, water passing through the porous gel coat is not osmosis; its just water passing through a porous material. However, the blistering process may involve osmosis, a process which concentrates solvents within the space formed by the blister void. This concentration of solvents does indeed dissolve the plastic, but fortunately the amount of fluid involved is so small that it does not seriously threaten the laminate. Of course, the larger the blister, the more concentrated solvent is present, the more damage it will cause. Therefore the amount of damage, and therefore structural weakening caused by blistering, is directly proportional to size and number of blisters. This explains why only boats with very large blisters can end up with serious structural weakness problems. |
#7
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
We're just NORTH of the bridge.
I have no local knowledge of damages recent - but just happened to be talking with one of the owners who was speaking of what they had done when they built, and that other marinas hadn't. During a long-ago hurricane, those marinas were very badly hit. So far as I know, all are in operation again... L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." "slide" wrote in message ... Skip, I guess you are on the hard at that marina just south of the bridge. Does the City marina south of you still exist? I put in there for a few months just before the big hurricane which took Ft. Pierce apart. I heard the City marina was hard hit. Can you confirm or deny? Thanks. |
#8
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m... http://www.yachtsurvey.com/BuyingBlisterBoat.htm Wilbur, Read down to ***! Let's face it, an awful lot of boats have blisters, so that finding one that doesn't (or won't get them) can be a difficult proposition. The short answer is that if at all possible, you should try to avoid that, if for no other reason than the potential expense you may face in the future. That expense may not result from the absolute necessity to repair the blisters, but the position you may find yourself in when it comes time to sell the boat. Particularly with newer model boats, say 1 - 3 years old, it is not unusual for buyers demand a reduction in price, or that the blisters be repaired. For older boats, its usually much less of a problem, for the fact is that moderate blistering on an older boat rarely impedes the sale. Unfortunately, another fact of boating life is that there is a great deal of misinformation on this much talked-about subject. One common misconception is that blisters seriously weaken and/or damage boat hulls. In 30 years of surveying and examining around 4000 hulls, I have seen less than 10 cases where blisters have resulted in serious structural degradation of a hull where it was weakened to a point where some type of failure was immanent. What is a blister? First, let's understand that all fiberglass hulls absorb water to some degree because both the gel coat finish on the exterior, and the fiberglass reinforced plastic is porous. Since water is a solvent, it will react with the plastic resulting in the water and solvents in the plastic mixing to create a weak solvent solution, usually with styrene. This then softens the gel coat somewhat and, combined with a bit of gas or fluid pressure, results in the blister. Are blisters harmful? Yes, but. This is a question of how much harm. Blisters form at the interface between the gel coat and what is called the skinout mat, which is a layer of chopped, short-strand fiberglass that is used to prevent the coarser weave pattern of heavier fiberglass cloth from telegraphing through to the finish surface. You've probably seen boats with a checkerboard pattern showing on the surface, and this is the reason why. Now, fiberglass fabric, being made of bundles of very fine glass fibers, is very porous also, most especially the outer layer of mat. Once the gel coat absorbs water, the fibers in the mat that are unsaturated with resin then spread the water around via the capillary effect. Blistering involves only the gel coat and surface mat in 99% of the cases. This is due to the fact that the structural fabrics, such as roving, get saturated better. Its also because the water is less likely to penetrate beyond the mat and, even if it does, woven fabrics do not have the weak gel coat factor and are much too strong to allow whatever pressure may develop within a void to cause a separation. The incidence of blisters occurring within structural laminates is extremely small. Boat hull blisters If the resin used to make the hull is of a lower quality that will react with water, a process known as hydrolysis, which means nothing more than becoming saturated with water and dissolving, then the hull is poised to develop blisters. Many other factors also come into play here, such as how well the mat layer is bonded to the gel coat. Since the vast majority of blisters occur between the mat and gel coat (depicted in illustration above), this bond has to be fairly weak for the blistering process to occur. If the bond is strong, then blisters will not occur, even though there is a lot of water absorption. This is a very general, even generic, description of the blistering process. There are frequently numerous other factors involved which I will not address here. Aside from the damage it causes to the surface, most of the damage done by the blister is to the gel coat and the skin out mat, which is not a structural part of the hull laminate. Remember, the mat is only there to prevent the fabric pattern from showing through to the surface. The obvious question is now, "But isn't the water dissolving the rest of the plastic resin in the laminate?" The answer to that is "No, its not." At least not to any considerable degree. *** You may have noticed that I have not used the word "osmosis" that we hear so much these days. Technically, water passing through the porous gel coat is not osmosis; its just water passing through a porous material. However, the blistering process may involve osmosis, a process which concentrates solvents within the space formed by the blister void. This concentration of solvents does indeed dissolve the plastic, but fortunately the amount of fluid involved is so small that it does not seriously threaten the laminate. Of course, the larger the blister, the more concentrated solvent is present, the more damage it will cause. Therefore the amount of damage, and therefore structural weakening caused by blistering, is directly proportional to size and number of blisters. This explains why only boats with very large blisters can end up with serious structural weakness problems. But, the very next paragraph after the asterisks mentions osmosis. Put it this way. You've heard of reverse osmosis, right? That is where you force salt water through a membrane where it would not normally go by using lots of pressure. The salt is too big to pass through the membrane and only fresh water passes because water molecules are quite tiny. Osmosis without the 'reverse' operates the other way. Water migrates through membrane because on one side there is a denser substance (laminate chemicals that attract water) and continues to do so until an equilibrium is reached between the densities inside and out. This migration at the molecular level is what pushes up the blisters. Once the water gets inside the laminate it will NOT migrate back out when the boat remains in the water. It will diffuse and evaporate out when the boat is stored on the hard in a low-humidity environment. Cold = low humidity so cold storage is a faster way to dry out the laminate that is pressurized by osmotic action. Spraying the hull with water will do nothing to release the trapped osmotic fluids that push out the blisters. Only in areas where the laminate is compromised will the osmotic fluid ooze out to be washed off. In areas where the laminate is intact there is also osmotic fluid under pressure which does not ooze out. So, Skippy is fixing about half the problem given the assumption that bout half his hull laminate is structurally compromised as in cracks, fractures, holes, splits, etc. Wilbur Hubbard |
#9
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 09:46:32 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "CaveLamb" wrote in message om... http://www.yachtsurvey.com/BuyingBlisterBoat.htm Wilbur, Read down to ***! Let's face it, an awful lot of boats have blisters, so that finding one that doesn't (or won't get them) can be a difficult proposition. The short answer is that if at all possible, you should try to avoid that, if for no other reason than the potential expense you may face in the future. That expense may not result from the absolute necessity to repair the blisters, but the position you may find yourself in when it comes time to sell the boat. Particularly with newer model boats, say 1 - 3 years old, it is not unusual for buyers demand a reduction in price, or that the blisters be repaired. For older boats, its usually much less of a problem, for the fact is that moderate blistering on an older boat rarely impedes the sale. Unfortunately, another fact of boating life is that there is a great deal of misinformation on this much talked-about subject. One common misconception is that blisters seriously weaken and/or damage boat hulls. In 30 years of surveying and examining around 4000 hulls, I have seen less than 10 cases where blisters have resulted in serious structural degradation of a hull where it was weakened to a point where some type of failure was immanent. What is a blister? First, let's understand that all fiberglass hulls absorb water to some degree because both the gel coat finish on the exterior, and the fiberglass reinforced plastic is porous. Since water is a solvent, it will react with the plastic resulting in the water and solvents in the plastic mixing to create a weak solvent solution, usually with styrene. This then softens the gel coat somewhat and, combined with a bit of gas or fluid pressure, results in the blister. Are blisters harmful? Yes, but. This is a question of how much harm. Blisters form at the interface between the gel coat and what is called the skinout mat, which is a layer of chopped, short-strand fiberglass that is used to prevent the coarser weave pattern of heavier fiberglass cloth from telegraphing through to the finish surface. You've probably seen boats with a checkerboard pattern showing on the surface, and this is the reason why. Now, fiberglass fabric, being made of bundles of very fine glass fibers, is very porous also, most especially the outer layer of mat. Once the gel coat absorbs water, the fibers in the mat that are unsaturated with resin then spread the water around via the capillary effect. Blistering involves only the gel coat and surface mat in 99% of the cases. This is due to the fact that the structural fabrics, such as roving, get saturated better. Its also because the water is less likely to penetrate beyond the mat and, even if it does, woven fabrics do not have the weak gel coat factor and are much too strong to allow whatever pressure may develop within a void to cause a separation. The incidence of blisters occurring within structural laminates is extremely small. Boat hull blisters If the resin used to make the hull is of a lower quality that will react with water, a process known as hydrolysis, which means nothing more than becoming saturated with water and dissolving, then the hull is poised to develop blisters. Many other factors also come into play here, such as how well the mat layer is bonded to the gel coat. Since the vast majority of blisters occur between the mat and gel coat (depicted in illustration above), this bond has to be fairly weak for the blistering process to occur. If the bond is strong, then blisters will not occur, even though there is a lot of water absorption. This is a very general, even generic, description of the blistering process. There are frequently numerous other factors involved which I will not address here. Aside from the damage it causes to the surface, most of the damage done by the blister is to the gel coat and the skin out mat, which is not a structural part of the hull laminate. Remember, the mat is only there to prevent the fabric pattern from showing through to the surface. The obvious question is now, "But isn't the water dissolving the rest of the plastic resin in the laminate?" The answer to that is "No, its not." At least not to any considerable degree. *** You may have noticed that I have not used the word "osmosis" that we hear so much these days. Technically, water passing through the porous gel coat is not osmosis; its just water passing through a porous material. However, the blistering process may involve osmosis, a process which concentrates solvents within the space formed by the blister void. This concentration of solvents does indeed dissolve the plastic, but fortunately the amount of fluid involved is so small that it does not seriously threaten the laminate. Of course, the larger the blister, the more concentrated solvent is present, the more damage it will cause. Therefore the amount of damage, and therefore structural weakening caused by blistering, is directly proportional to size and number of blisters. This explains why only boats with very large blisters can end up with serious structural weakness problems. But, the very next paragraph after the asterisks mentions osmosis. Put it this way. You've heard of reverse osmosis, right? That is where you force salt water through a membrane where it would not normally go by using lots of pressure. The salt is too big to pass through the membrane and only fresh water passes because water molecules are quite tiny. Osmosis without the 'reverse' operates the other way. Water migrates through membrane because on one side there is a denser substance (laminate chemicals that attract water) and continues to do so until an equilibrium is reached between the densities inside and out. This migration at the molecular level is what pushes up the blisters. Once the water gets inside the laminate it will NOT migrate back out when the boat remains in the water. It will diffuse and evaporate out when the boat is stored on the hard in a low-humidity environment. Cold = low humidity so cold storage is a faster way to dry out the laminate that is pressurized by osmotic action. You really don't get it, do you. Water doesn't migrate through any membrane into a polyester laminate, the laminate absorbs water, just as a sponge does. The water reacts with resident chemicals in the laminate to form new substances which have a larger molecular size and thus do not flow through the laminate as easily as water. When you take a boat out of the water whatever water has been absorbed by the hull will slowly dry out and blisters, which contain a mixture of water and osmosis liquid will usually become less visible. However, "drying the boat" removes only water content and will never remove all of the "osmosis liquid", and thus cannot remove the root of the problem. The only method, to date, for getting rid of the osmosis liquid is to let the boat set and some of the osmosis liquid may slowly defuse outwards where it can be washed off. Or alternatively, to strip the outer layers of the hull until you remove the portion of the laminate containing the majority of the osmosis, which is very costly as it involves both removing laminate and replacing the removed laminate with new, if the hull is to be returned to its original strength. And finally, if you place an object containing water in an arctic climate the water will freeze and in the case of a boat might well explode the hull. Living trees in the arctic occasionally exploded due to freezing of the sap. Spraying the hull with water will do nothing to release the trapped osmotic fluids that push out the blisters. Only in areas where the laminate is compromised will the osmotic fluid ooze out to be washed off. In areas where the laminate is intact there is also osmotic fluid under pressure which does not ooze out. So, Skippy is fixing about half the problem given the assumption that bout half his hull laminate is structurally compromised as in cracks, fractures, holes, splits, etc. Wilbur Hubbard Sorry Willie-boy but you are wrong again, the osmosis liquid is not wholly contained in discrete bubbles it is pretty well defused in the hull material and the waiting and washing is intended to remove this liquid from the surface of the hull so that the barrier coat will adhere to the hull. While one might applaud your valiant, but futile, attempts to prove that you understand osmosis you are hampered by your inability to realize that your preconceived notions are not facts and not correct and you are thus unable to realize that you "don't know what you are talking about". Since you can never realize that you are wrong you are unable to ever learn. In short Willie, your antiquated notion that osmosis can be cured by drying is about as logical as the argument that the earth is flat else we'd all fall off, and arguing your preconceived "fact" just demonstrates your stupidity. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#10
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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You're all wet, or the how to dry out your wet hull tango
On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:33:15 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/BuyingBlisterBoat.htm Wilbur, Read down to ***! Let's face it, an awful lot of boats have blisters, so that finding one that doesn't (or won't get them) can be a difficult proposition. The short answer is that if at all possible, you should try to avoid that, if for no other reason than the potential expense you may face in the future. That expense may not result from the absolute necessity to repair the blisters, but the position you may find yourself in when it comes time to sell the boat. Particularly with newer model boats, say 1 - 3 years old, it is not unusual for buyers demand a reduction in price, or that the blisters be repaired. For older boats, its usually much less of a problem, for the fact is that moderate blistering on an older boat rarely impedes the sale. Unfortunately, another fact of boating life is that there is a great deal of misinformation on this much talked-about subject. One common misconception is that blisters seriously weaken and/or damage boat hulls. In 30 years of surveying and examining around 4000 hulls, I have seen less than 10 cases where blisters have resulted in serious structural degradation of a hull where it was weakened to a point where some type of failure was immanent. What is a blister? First, let's understand that all fiberglass hulls absorb water to some degree because both the gel coat finish on the exterior, and the fiberglass reinforced plastic is porous. Since water is a solvent, it will react with the plastic resulting in the water and solvents in the plastic mixing to create a weak solvent solution, usually with styrene. This then softens the gel coat somewhat and, combined with a bit of gas or fluid pressure, results in the blister. Are blisters harmful? Yes, but. This is a question of how much harm. Blisters form at the interface between the gel coat and what is called the skinout mat, which is a layer of chopped, short-strand fiberglass that is used to prevent the coarser weave pattern of heavier fiberglass cloth from telegraphing through to the finish surface. You've probably seen boats with a checkerboard pattern showing on the surface, and this is the reason why. Now, fiberglass fabric, being made of bundles of very fine glass fibers, is very porous also, most especially the outer layer of mat. Once the gel coat absorbs water, the fibers in the mat that are unsaturated with resin then spread the water around via the capillary effect. Blistering involves only the gel coat and surface mat in 99% of the cases. This is due to the fact that the structural fabrics, such as roving, get saturated better. Its also because the water is less likely to penetrate beyond the mat and, even if it does, woven fabrics do not have the weak gel coat factor and are much too strong to allow whatever pressure may develop within a void to cause a separation. The incidence of blisters occurring within structural laminates is extremely small. Boat hull blisters If the resin used to make the hull is of a lower quality that will react with water, a process known as hydrolysis, which means nothing more than becoming saturated with water and dissolving, then the hull is poised to develop blisters. Many other factors also come into play here, such as how well the mat layer is bonded to the gel coat. Since the vast majority of blisters occur between the mat and gel coat (depicted in illustration above), this bond has to be fairly weak for the blistering process to occur. If the bond is strong, then blisters will not occur, even though there is a lot of water absorption. This is a very general, even generic, description of the blistering process. There are frequently numerous other factors involved which I will not address here. Aside from the damage it causes to the surface, most of the damage done by the blister is to the gel coat and the skin out mat, which is not a structural part of the hull laminate. Remember, the mat is only there to prevent the fabric pattern from showing through to the surface. The obvious question is now, "But isn't the water dissolving the rest of the plastic resin in the laminate?" The answer to that is "No, its not." At least not to any considerable degree. *** You may have noticed that I have not used the word "osmosis" that we hear so much these days. Technically, water passing through the porous gel coat is not osmosis; its just water passing through a porous material. However, the blistering process may involve osmosis, a process which concentrates solvents within the space formed by the blister void. This concentration of solvents does indeed dissolve the plastic, but fortunately the amount of fluid involved is so small that it does not seriously threaten the laminate. Of course, the larger the blister, the more concentrated solvent is present, the more damage it will cause. Therefore the amount of damage, and therefore structural weakening caused by blistering, is directly proportional to size and number of blisters. This explains why only boats with very large blisters can end up with serious structural weakness problems. Or, as somebody once said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
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