how necessary is a windlass
 

"Jessica B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 05:57:04 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
snippage

A beautiful try Willie-boy; unfortunately you missed it. You 'mericans
are not the final arbitrator of the English language. See the extract
from the dictionary below:

phoney ~ noun very rare
1. a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does
not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives

phoney ~ adj very rare
1. fraudulent; having a misleading appearance

As I said, if you keep your mouth shut nobody will ever notice how
ignorant you are.



That seems pretty desperate. You should admit when you're wrong about
something especially if it's a small thing.



BINGO! Very rare? Bruce must confuse steaks with phony. lol

how necessary is a windlass
 

"Jessica B" wrote in message
...
snip

JMB just e-mailed me. She sounds like an organized person and a go-getter.
I
CC'd you my reply to her. Things are looking good. She's got some firm
dates
in mind so check your inbox. Sounds like she's planning to rent a car at
the
airport so you two should coordinate your flights if you can so you can
ride
together. It sure would save me time going back and forth twice to the
airport. In exchange I've offered to get you guys a room while you're here
so you can have all the luxuries you're used to and a safe place for your
luggage. Sounds like a deal to me. ;-)

You're an EXCELLENT person!

Thanks, I guess it takes one to know one. LOL! You're a real sweetheart,
Jessica B! You deserve excellence.

I promise to be better about email and such. I've just been swamped
with job and personal stuff.

I understand (now). Good to have you back. ;-)


snip

how necessary is a windlass
 

"Jessica B" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 19:23:55 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Jessica B" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:25:41 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
snippage


I've seen way more sailors who use their engine as a crutch in lieu of
learning how to handle their boat under sail. I've even had some of the
Rubes in this very group try to say it's irresponsible to anchor under
sail
if there are other boats anchored. They say such nonsense because they
never
learned how to anchor under sail and if they tried they would most
likely
ram somebody. If they weren't so inept or inexperienced they would
discover
that a sailboat has better steering functionality under a balanced
sailplan
than under engine power alone.


I'd imagine that if the sailor is experienced in anchoring when
sailing that it wouldn't matter if there were rocks or other boats
around. I don't think I could do it, but ....

You could do it, Jessica, once you familiarized yourself with the
characteristics and handling of your sailboat, the ground tackle, bottom
conditions and wind/current. Like anything else it just takes some
experience and some understanding of how things work. With your analytical
mind, you'd be anchoring under sail with the best of them in no time. It's
more about finesse than muscle. Even a big strong man simply cannot muscle
a
four-ton sailboat into place. On the contrary, one must know what the boat
is going to do and let the boat do it in the direction and velocity one
desires. A sailboat is like a woman. You gotta let her do what she wants
but
you have to know what she wants to do and then everything goes as
expected.


I hope we're going to get a lesson! I'm up for it if you have a pair
of gloves I can use.

I do. They might be a little large but they'll work. You'll like my ground
tackle. The anchors aren't too big and they aren't all rusty and the length
of chain is nice polished stainless steel. I get those gloves with the
little rubber dots on the palm side for better grip as the stainless steel
tends to be slippery when wet. I'll be sure to have an extra pair or two at
the ready for you ladies.


I've gotta get to the gym. Then, I'll email you more, but let me know
you got the last one!!

Work on the abs and biceps. You probably already have the legs being a track
star. An anchor full of mud weighs about a hundred pounds. LOL! Just
kidding.


Wilbur Hubbard

how necessary is a windlass
 

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
...
Mark Borgerson wrote:
In article ,
says...
Jessica B wrote:
At first someone claimed that the waterline difference would be tiny.
I found to be what seems a recent photo where that's not the case, and
now you're claiming it's a relic? I don't get that. Either it can be a
factor or it can't be.

If I may again...

Compare a Catalina 27 and My Catalina 26.

My waterline is 3 inches longer.

That's because the 27 has significant overhangs on both ends.
Overhangs are the part of the hull above the waterline forward or aft of
the waterline/hull point.
If there is a lot of hull forward of where the water meets the hull then
you have a long bow overhang. Same for the stern.

Heeled 30 degrees (quite a bit actually) the 27's waterline length just
about
matches my 26's.

Any less heel and the 27 is shorter than the 26. Waterline length that
is...

So, what does it mean as far as speed goes?

Three inches is 1/4 of a foot.
So..

1.33 * sqrt (.25) = ?
1.33 * .5 = .665 knots difference In theory, at least.

Which can be easily hidden by sail trim, rudder position, sea state, etc


Yes, I get that current is only a real help in a few instances. What
about the gulf stream example? I don't think that changes direction
does it?
Current is not tide.
Tides change direction. Currents usually do not.

That's both right and wrong in so many ways....

Tides go up and down.

Currents caused by tidal differences do change direction---one or more
times per day, depending on whether you have diurnal or
semi-dirunal tides.

Currents in the open ocean--like the Gulf Stream or the Japan Current,
do not change directions---at least during the time span of a normal
cruise. Mark Borgerson




Much better explination of tidal currents, Mark.
Thanks



Mark sure is more correct than Bruce. LOL! But, then again, perhaps that's
not saying much.

Wilbur Hubbard

how necessary is a windlass
 

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
...
Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 05:04:01 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:16:58 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Three inches is 1/4 of a foot.
So..

1.33 * sqrt (.25) = ?
1.33 * .5 = .665 knots difference In theory, at least.
27^.5=5.2 27.25^.5=5.22. Three hundredths of a knot difference.

Casady


Hmmm. HP calculator?

--Vic


Sorry guys :)
Just late and not paying attention to the numbers.

Half a knot for 3 inches does seem a little funny, doesn't it...



Since the fudge factor is multiplied by the square root of the LWL, the LWL
must be significantly longer than a few inches for the theoretical speed to
go up much. But, every little bit counts. Even a clean bottom makes a huge
difference and many sailors go around with a fouled bottom not realizing how
badly it slows them down. Same goes for those dumb, big, three-bladed fixed
props. What a DRAG!


Wilbur Hubbard

how necessary is a windlass
 

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 07:52:19 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 05:04:01 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:16:58 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Three inches is 1/4 of a foot.
So..

1.33 * sqrt (.25) = ?
1.33 * .5 = .665 knots difference In theory, at least.

27^.5=5.2 27.25^.5=5.22. Three hundredths of a knot difference.

Casady


Hmmm. HP calculator?

I refer to my HP 48 as " TheCalculatorThatTakesNoPrisoners "

Casady

how necessary is a windlass
 

In article s.com,
llid says...

"Jessica B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 05:39:14 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:35:30 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Jessica B wrote:

Hmmm... well, I looked up theoretical boat speed... 1.34 x the root of
LWL. But, I read that when the boat leans (heels) then the LWL would
get longer, so the theoretical speed would go up right? Also, what
about the water moving. If it's going in the same direction, then that
would decrease the time you spend traveling.



But how MUCH longer does the waterline get?
Seldom more than a few inches at most.

As for the other, it's called current.
And if you are going against it, slower than the current is running,
you go backwards...
What fun, huh?


The long overhangs was a relic of one of the old racing rules that
penalized long waterlines. So, the crafty people built a boat with a
very short waterline and sailed it heeled and had a effective
waterline much longer then what was measured for handy cap rating.

Current is only a real help in the few instances where it always runs
the same way. The more usual conditions have it going one way for a
half a day and the other way for the other half. Net help = Zero.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

At first someone claimed that the waterline difference would be tiny.
I found to be what seems a recent photo where that's not the case, and
now you're claiming it's a relic? I don't get that. Either it can be a
factor or it can't be.

Yes, I get that current is only a real help in a few instances. What
about the gulf stream example? I don't think that changes direction
does it?



The Gulf Stream proper always sets the same direction. The only thing that
can and does change is the loop currents which are eddies off the sides that
gyre around and can even set in the opposite direction of that in the axis
of the Stream.

Bruce is often confused. He's even confused about the tides in my part of
the world and probably in his part of the world as well. There are two high
tides and two low tides a day here. That means in areas where there is a
tidal flow the current switches approximately every six hours - not twice a
day as Bruce said.

Furthermore, his conclusion about net help = zero is also flawed for a
couple of reason. 1) off soundings (in deep water) there are no tidal
currents as they are a shallow water phenomena. 2) an experienced sailor
departs and arrives 'on the tide' which means with a favorable tidal current
(astern) so there can be significant gains especially in real parts of the
sailing world where there are diurnal tides (two highs and two lows a day).
Bruce is talking about semi-diurnal tides. He thinks pretty much like your
typical lubber, I'm afraid.

I'm afraid you've got dirurnal and semi-diurnal tides mixed up. It is
semi-diurnal tides that have two highs and two lows per day. Diurnal
tides have only a single high and low in a day.

"Atlantic Ocean (in Atlantic Ocean: Tides)
....of the Atlantic tide are influenced by a combination of complex
factors, which include coastline features, seafloor topography, and wind
and current patterns. By far the most prevalent tidal type is
semidiurnal, which is characterized by two high and two low tides per
tidal day (lasting about 24 hours and 50 minutes). Semidiurnal tides
occur along the entire eastern margin of the Atlantic and..."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...midiurnal-tide


"The geometric relationship of moon and Sun to locations on the Earth's
surface results in creation of three different types of tides. In parts
of the northern Gulf of Mexico and Southeast Asia, tides have one high
and one low water per tidal day (Figure 8r-4). These tides are called
diurnal tides."


Here on the West Coast we get mixed tides:

"Many parts of the world experience mixed tides where successive high-
water and low-water stands differ appreciably (Figure 8r-6). In these
tides, we have a higher high water and lower high water as well as
higher low water and lower low water. The tides around west coast of
Canada and the United States are of this type."

http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8r.html





Bruce is also misinformed about the great ocean currents (of which the Gulf
Stream is a notable example) most of which always set in the same direction
day in and day out, year in and year out. The changing tides don't affect
these currents or affect them very little; they most certainly don't affect
the direction of flow.

Your instincts are good, Jessica B. Don't let Bruce pull the wool over your
eyes.


Mark Borgerson

how necessary is a windlass
 

"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
...
In article s.com,
llid says...

"Jessica B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 05:39:14 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:35:30 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Jessica B wrote:

Hmmm... well, I looked up theoretical boat speed... 1.34 x the root
of
LWL. But, I read that when the boat leans (heels) then the LWL would
get longer, so the theoretical speed would go up right? Also, what
about the water moving. If it's going in the same direction, then
that
would decrease the time you spend traveling.



But how MUCH longer does the waterline get?
Seldom more than a few inches at most.

As for the other, it's called current.
And if you are going against it, slower than the current is running,
you go backwards...
What fun, huh?


The long overhangs was a relic of one of the old racing rules that
penalized long waterlines. So, the crafty people built a boat with a
very short waterline and sailed it heeled and had a effective
waterline much longer then what was measured for handy cap rating.

Current is only a real help in the few instances where it always runs
the same way. The more usual conditions have it going one way for a
half a day and the other way for the other half. Net help = Zero.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

At first someone claimed that the waterline difference would be tiny.
I found to be what seems a recent photo where that's not the case, and
now you're claiming it's a relic? I don't get that. Either it can be a
factor or it can't be.

Yes, I get that current is only a real help in a few instances. What
about the gulf stream example? I don't think that changes direction
does it?



The Gulf Stream proper always sets the same direction. The only thing
that
can and does change is the loop currents which are eddies off the sides
that
gyre around and can even set in the opposite direction of that in the
axis
of the Stream.

Bruce is often confused. He's even confused about the tides in my part of
the world and probably in his part of the world as well. There are two
high
tides and two low tides a day here. That means in areas where there is a
tidal flow the current switches approximately every six hours - not twice
a
day as Bruce said.

Furthermore, his conclusion about net help = zero is also flawed for a
couple of reason. 1) off soundings (in deep water) there are no tidal
currents as they are a shallow water phenomena. 2) an experienced sailor
departs and arrives 'on the tide' which means with a favorable tidal
current
(astern) so there can be significant gains especially in real parts of
the
sailing world where there are diurnal tides (two highs and two lows a
day).
Bruce is talking about semi-diurnal tides. He thinks pretty much like
your
typical lubber, I'm afraid.

I'm afraid you've got dirurnal and semi-diurnal tides mixed up. It is
semi-diurnal tides that have two highs and two lows per day. Diurnal
tides have only a single high and low in a day.

"Atlantic Ocean (in Atlantic Ocean: Tides)
...of the Atlantic tide are influenced by a combination of complex
factors, which include coastline features, seafloor topography, and wind
and current patterns. By far the most prevalent tidal type is
semidiurnal, which is characterized by two high and two low tides per
tidal day (lasting about 24 hours and 50 minutes). Semidiurnal tides
occur along the entire eastern margin of the Atlantic and..."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...midiurnal-tide


"The geometric relationship of moon and Sun to locations on the Earth's
surface results in creation of three different types of tides. In parts
of the northern Gulf of Mexico and Southeast Asia, tides have one high
and one low water per tidal day (Figure 8r-4). These tides are called
diurnal tides."


Here on the West Coast we get mixed tides:

"Many parts of the world experience mixed tides where successive high-
water and low-water stands differ appreciably (Figure 8r-6). In these
tides, we have a higher high water and lower high water as well as
higher low water and lower low water. The tides around west coast of
Canada and the United States are of this type."

http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8r.html




My bad, sorry!


Wilbur Hubbard

how necessary is a windlass
 

On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:33:53 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

CaveLamb wrote:
Jessica B wrote:

Sorry, but I just don't understand the logic.
Sorry, I was trying to explain why it is illogical to attempt to
outrun weather patterns in a vehicle that thunders through the waves
at 5 miles an hour - A kid on a Huffy can outrun you. Sheehs, a fast
walker can "outrun" you.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

I didn't say out run anything. I thought we were talking about the
difference between 5mph and 7mph over a distance. That's a significant
time difference over a longish distance.

Not really. It's not a different of days, at least.

200 nm at 5 knots = 100 hours
200 nm at 7 knots = 71 hours

And if running from a storm you are running into a lee shore and
shallow water - just before the storm hits?

Pass...



Sorry Jessica
That was supposed to be 500 miles

I'm not sure what you mean by 500 miles, but the difference in days
between 100 and 71 hours is more than a day. That could make a
difference if there's a predicted storm that coming wouldn't it?

I'm sure I would pass on going, but it seems like it would still make
a significant difference for some people.

how necessary is a windlass
 

On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:08:47 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Jessica B" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 05:57:04 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:
snippage

A beautiful try Willie-boy; unfortunately you missed it. You 'mericans
are not the final arbitrator of the English language. See the extract
from the dictionary below:

phoney ~ noun very rare
1. a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does
not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives

phoney ~ adj very rare
1. fraudulent; having a misleading appearance

As I said, if you keep your mouth shut nobody will ever notice how
ignorant you are.



That seems pretty desperate. You should admit when you're wrong about
something especially if it's a small thing.



BINGO! Very rare? Bruce must confuse steaks with phony. lol


Ha.. I see you admitted you were wrong about the tides thing with
Mark. So, it seems you aren't desperate to be right even if you're
wrong about something. Seems pretty adult and smart to me!