"Bob" wrote in message
...

And 'breathe' safely, too.

Wilbur Hubbard

Thank you WIlbur. I hope you have a safe and happy New Year!

PS I enjoyed the pics of your mustard boat. Nice boat

Bbo



Ah, a man of discriminating tastes. Very good show. Thanks much and a happy
new year to you as well.


Wilbur Hubbard

On Dec 31 2010, 11:37*pm, Gordon wrote:
As far as your "organic" veggies.... Can you go into some details of
the difference between nitrogen absorbed from fertilizer made from
methane gas and that absorbed from horse ****?

* * * Simple!!!! Look at the price. No fertilizer, no weeding, no
spraying, DOUBLE the price!
* Gordon


Dear Gordon and Bruce:

Dosing dirt with 20-20-20 fertilizer or for you lawn guys 20-0-0
presents its own problems.... as in turning your soil into concrete
after a few years. Dirt needs organic materials as well, as in mulch,
but thats not my main gripe. What does get me ****ed is all the
pesticides, herbicides, fungi/mold, soil conditioners, etc and other
wacky chemicals used to get a crop to market. I believe is harmful to
us over time.

I was sitting on a bench in eastern Washington watching a VB game. The
VB dad next to me was a fruit farmer. Tuff life. One thing that caught
my ear was the cost of spraying his orchard 7-10 times annually. One
of the sprays was something called "stop drop" Its a chemical designed
to keep the apples from falling off the tree too early and to regulate
when the fruit all drop time simultaneously. Im a conservative person.
And its just common sense not to eat something thats had a bunch of
chemicals dosed on it. IDK maybe ur one of those liberal whacko types
who believes you should be able to do what every you want with no
regard to the consequences. You know like a spoiled child.

You can make your own choices but your comments show your ignorance of
the topic. I buy organic Fuji apples all the time for $1.29 / lb hell
even our PNW grocery store Fred Meyer (piggle wiggle for you
coonasses) has an Organic section and sells great juicy organic cali
oranges for $0.88/lb That seems pretty cheep for an orange that
doesn’t have a bunch of nerve agents in its juice.

Get with the times boys We dont send trucks spraying DDT down the
streets to kill bugs anymore. Why should we eat food that has
chemicals designed to kill animals and plants.

For Bruce…… yes, drinking coffee from a cup with lead in the glaze may
not kill you today My concern is 50 years of exposure or having the
most susceptible, our children getting their nervous system re-wired
because of metals in their diet. Do we still have lead potable water
supply pipes? Why is that Bruce?

I got things to do today and would be wiling to supply lots of actual
facts instead of simply spouting my personal opinion here. Bruce -
Gordon you seem like a reasonable people. Doesn’t it make since to
research the food you put in your mouth with the same zeal you
research a new radio for your boat or consider which bottom paint is
best????

For all the time you guys bicker about boat equipment Id think you’d
also be a critical consumer of what you stick in your pie hole. Humm
but maybe there isn’t much room considering you probably also have a
guy's cock in it too.

Bob

Bob wrote:
I buy organic Fuji apples all the time for $1.29 / lb hell
even our PNW grocery store Fred Meyer (piggle wiggle for you
coonasses) has an Organic section and sells great juicy organic cali
oranges for $0.88/lb That seems pretty cheep for an orange that
doesn?t have a bunch of nerve agents in its juice.

There was a semi-recent news story (several months ago, I can't
quickly find a link for you) about a woman who, concerned about
feeding her baby all those "nerve agents" you mentioned, was careful
to only buy certified organic apple juice. Unfortunately (you knew
there was a "but", right?), one batch hadn't been pasteurized properly,
and the kid died from botulism (or something like that -- I can't
quite recall).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for organic, but the world's not a
perfect place, and there's no perfect way to live in it. In this
case, some of those smaller organic farmers just didn't have the
resources to invest in all the best equipment that the larger
non-organic conglomerates can buy -- kind of analogous to the whole
cheap air compressor thing that started this thread.

yes, drinking coffee from a cup with lead in the glaze may
not kill you today My concern is 50 years of exposure or having the
most susceptible, our children getting their nervous system re-wired
because of metals in their diet. Do we still have lead potable water
supply pipes?

Interesting data point about that: in classical Rome, most people
lived maybe 30 or so years, but those that didn't die that (to us)
young usually dropped dead around 50 or so. Everybody just figured
that was old age. But we know better. So what killed them all off?
A lifetime drinking out of lead goblets. But that was so ubiquitous
in their society that nobody ever figured it out at the time.
Makes you wonder what we might be doing now that's killing us off
earlier than necessary, but that's so commonplace that nobody
notices the correlation.
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: where j=john and f=forkosh )

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 03:07:26 +0000 (UTC), JohnF
wrote:

Bob wrote:
I buy organic Fuji apples all the time for $1.29 / lb hell
even our PNW grocery store Fred Meyer (piggle wiggle for you
coonasses) has an Organic section and sells great juicy organic cali
oranges for $0.88/lb That seems pretty cheep for an orange that
doesn?t have a bunch of nerve agents in its juice.

There was a semi-recent news story (several months ago, I can't
quickly find a link for you) about a woman who, concerned about
feeding her baby all those "nerve agents" you mentioned, was careful
to only buy certified organic apple juice. Unfortunately (you knew
there was a "but", right?), one batch hadn't been pasteurized properly,
and the kid died from botulism (or something like that -- I can't
quite recall).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for organic, but the world's not a
perfect place, and there's no perfect way to live in it. In this
case, some of those smaller organic farmers just didn't have the
resources to invest in all the best equipment that the larger
non-organic conglomerates can buy -- kind of analogous to the whole
cheap air compressor thing that started this thread.

yes, drinking coffee from a cup with lead in the glaze may
not kill you today My concern is 50 years of exposure or having the
most susceptible, our children getting their nervous system re-wired
because of metals in their diet. Do we still have lead potable water
supply pipes?

Interesting data point about that: in classical Rome, most people
lived maybe 30 or so years, but those that didn't die that (to us)
young usually dropped dead around 50 or so. Everybody just figured
that was old age. But we know better. So what killed them all off?
A lifetime drinking out of lead goblets. But that was so ubiquitous
in their society that nobody ever figured it out at the time.
Makes you wonder what we might be doing now that's killing us off
earlier than necessary, but that's so commonplace that nobody
notices the correlation.

Jumping right in... there are sooo many things in the environment that
we barely know about. It might be too complicated to figure out which
ones are doing damage... not to mention all the toxic things we do
know about. I guess all you can do is try to limit your exposure to
the things you do know about. What's the other choice... live under a
rock and quake in fear?

Jumping right in... there are sooo many things in the environment that
we barely know about.

So true!


It might be too complicated to figure out which
ones are doing damage...

COmplicated yes, butthat is why EPA DEQ USDA FDA were originally
created. Unfortunatly when a republican admisitration get in power
the first thing they do is cut the budget to thoes who are mandated to
protect us.

I guess all you can do is try to limit your exposure to
the things you do know about.

Spoken like a true conservative! Absolutly true ! !

What's the other choice... live under a
rock and quake in fear?-

I belive many here would simply follow what the agri-chem lobbiest
want everyone to belive; our food is safe. Now is when the REpublicans
will chime in and accuse me as being a total wacko, all our food is
safe because some company made it, and im anti american because I want
an orange that doesnt contain a measuarble amounts of nerve agents.

Oh, ya what is one of the other typical chant "... you ld have to eat
a 50 tons of oranges to get any ill effect from the herbicide/
pesticide present in a sunkist brand orange..."

My reply is I read the specs on most things I use..... especially if I
am putting inside me.

bob

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 17:04:46 -0800 (PST), Bob
wrote:

Jumping right in... there are sooo many things in the environment that
we barely know about.

So true!


It might be too complicated to figure out which
ones are doing damage...

COmplicated yes, butthat is why EPA DEQ USDA FDA were originally
created. Unfortunatly when a republican admisitration get in power
the first thing they do is cut the budget to thoes who are mandated to
protect us.

Seems like we've got all these agencies doing things? But, none of
them seem to do anything useful about this kind of pollution. I don't
trust them much. Maybe it should be more of a personal decision. I
mean you have to know that eating trash food isn't good for you,
right? So, if you choose to do that....

I guess all you can do is try to limit your exposure to
the things you do know about.

Spoken like a true conservative! Absolutly true ! !

Well, yeah. I just don't think we need to regulate everything. There's
got to be some personal responsibility.

What's the other choice... live under a
rock and quake in fear?-

I belive many here would simply follow what the agri-chem lobbiest
want everyone to belive; our food is safe. Now is when the REpublicans
will chime in and accuse me as being a total wacko, all our food is
safe because some company made it, and im anti american because I want
an orange that doesnt contain a measuarble amounts of nerve agents.

I don't think you can blame Republicans for all of it. I don't think
much has changed as far as whether or not antibiotics go into our meat
or milk. What Democrat decided to crack down on that?

Oh, ya what is one of the other typical chant "... you ld have to eat
a 50 tons of oranges to get any ill effect from the herbicide/
pesticide present in a sunkist brand orange..."

My reply is I read the specs on most things I use..... especially if I
am putting inside me.

bob


Seems like that it's probably true about the 50 tons or whatever, but
again, why not just buy from a place you trust. We do have a choice.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 03:07:26 +0000 (UTC), JohnF
wrote:

Bob wrote:
I buy organic Fuji apples all the time for $1.29 / lb hell
even our PNW grocery store Fred Meyer (piggle wiggle for you
coonasses) has an Organic section and sells great juicy organic cali
oranges for $0.88/lb That seems pretty cheep for an orange that
doesn?t have a bunch of nerve agents in its juice.

There was a semi-recent news story (several months ago, I can't
quickly find a link for you) about a woman who, concerned about
feeding her baby all those "nerve agents" you mentioned, was careful
to only buy certified organic apple juice. Unfortunately (you knew
there was a "but", right?), one batch hadn't been pasteurized properly,
and the kid died from botulism (or something like that -- I can't
quite recall).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for organic, but the world's not a
perfect place, and there's no perfect way to live in it. In this
case, some of those smaller organic farmers just didn't have the
resources to invest in all the best equipment that the larger
non-organic conglomerates can buy -- kind of analogous to the whole
cheap air compressor thing that started this thread.

yes, drinking coffee from a cup with lead in the glaze may
not kill you today My concern is 50 years of exposure or having the
most susceptible, our children getting their nervous system re-wired
because of metals in their diet. Do we still have lead potable water
supply pipes?

Interesting data point about that: in classical Rome, most people
lived maybe 30 or so years, but those that didn't die that (to us)
young usually dropped dead around 50 or so. Everybody just figured
that was old age. But we know better. So what killed them all off?
A lifetime drinking out of lead goblets. But that was so ubiquitous
in their society that nobody ever figured it out at the time.
Makes you wonder what we might be doing now that's killing us off
earlier than necessary, but that's so commonplace that nobody
notices the correlation.


Yes, I've read that... When I was in school I worked a couple of
summers for the Vermont State forest Service and one year our crew was
sent to make repairs on the Calvin Coolidge Homestead, where President
Coolidge was born and raised. Our main job was to re-shingle the barn
roof with cedar shakes and we camped out in the remains of the house
which was in very poor condition. I'm not sure when the house was
built but certainly in the late 1700's or early in the 1800' and of
course the house had very little in the way of plumbing - running
water in the kitchen was very much a luxury in those days and Calvin's
place had that. From a spring up a bit from the house someone had
built a stonewall dam to collect the runoff from a spring and piped
that to the kitchen..... With a lead pipe.

So from the time he was born until he left for collage any water
Calvin used came from a lead pipe.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Sat, 1 Jan 2011 12:50:03 -0800 (PST), Bob
wrote:

On Dec 31 2010, 11:37*pm, Gordon wrote:
As far as your "organic" veggies.... Can you go into some details of
the difference between nitrogen absorbed from fertilizer made from
methane gas and that absorbed from horse ****?

* * * Simple!!!! Look at the price. No fertilizer, no weeding, no
spraying, DOUBLE the price!
* Gordon


Dear Gordon and Bruce:

Dosing dirt with 20-20-20 fertilizer or for you lawn guys 20-0-0
presents its own problems.... as in turning your soil into concrete
after a few years. Dirt needs organic materials as well, as in mulch,
but thats not my main gripe. What does get me ****ed is all the
pesticides, herbicides, fungi/mold, soil conditioners, etc and other
wacky chemicals used to get a crop to market. I believe is harmful to
us over time.

First of all that really isn't true, at least not when you use the
word "mulch" which certainly seems to imply an organic substance
consisting of rotted vegetable matter - leaves, etc. I have been on
farms where nothing has been put on the soil except for animal manure
for the past hundred years and it was still happily growing a crop.

As far as "soil conditioners" that too was being done, in some cases,
certainly as far back as I can remember. You sent a sample to the
State Agriculture people and they would send back an analysis of what
you needed to plow into the ground for the next year, depending of
course if your land was especially acidic, base, or what. The main use
for this service, as I remember, was the potato farmers as potatoes
need (I believe) base soils and they plowed in ashes, I think.

The point isn't that you can't grow produce without chemicals, rather
that you can't get the same production per hectare/acre, in other
words you can't make as much money and lets face it every wants more
money.

But my point really wasn't whether you used fertilizer or not it was
whether there was any difference between fertilizing with horse manure
or with liquid nitrogen? After all the element in horse manure that
the plants use is nitrogen.

Apparently human manure is one of the best sources of nitrogen and is
used pretty much all over the Orient. In fact, in China, I recently
read that while in times past producers obtained human manure free in
return for the service of pumping out the toilet tanks in the houses
however recently the requirement had increased greatly and now it is
no longer free but is now collected by entrepreneurs and sold to the
farmers which has resulted in hard times for the farmers as cost of
production has risen while sales profits have remained the same.

As I said, human manure is very widely used, in fact so widely used in
Taiwan that it is responsible for Taiwan having the highest rate of
hepatitis in the world, at least it did some years ago.

So I asked again, is it better to fertilize with natural products or
with manufactured liquid nitrogen? The manufactured nitrogen being
largely germ free.

sniped
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Jessica B wrote:
JohnF wrote:

Bob wrote:
I buy organic Fuji apples all the time for $1.29 / lb hell
even our PNW grocery store Fred Meyer (piggle wiggle for you
coonasses) has an Organic section and sells great juicy organic cali
oranges for $0.88/lb That seems pretty cheep for an orange that
doesn?t have a bunch of nerve agents in its juice.

There was a semi-recent news story (several months ago, I can't
quickly find a link for you) about a woman who, concerned about
feeding her baby all those "nerve agents" you mentioned, was careful
to only buy certified organic apple juice. Unfortunately (you knew
there was a "but", right?), one batch hadn't been pasteurized properly,
and the kid died from botulism (or something like that -- I can't
quite recall).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for organic, but the world's not a
perfect place, and there's no perfect way to live in it. In this
case, some of those smaller organic farmers just didn't have the
resources to invest in all the best equipment that the larger
non-organic conglomerates can buy -- kind of analogous to the whole
cheap air compressor thing that started this thread.

yes, drinking coffee from a cup with lead in the glaze may
not kill you today My concern is 50 years of exposure or having the
most susceptible, our children getting their nervous system re-wired
because of metals in their diet. Do we still have lead potable water
supply pipes?

Interesting data point about that: in classical Rome, most people
lived maybe 30 or so years, but those that didn't die that (to us)
young usually dropped dead around 50 or so. Everybody just figured
that was old age. But we know better. So what killed them all off?
A lifetime drinking out of lead goblets. But that was so ubiquitous
in their society that nobody ever figured it out at the time.
Makes you wonder what we might be doing now that's killing us off
earlier than necessary, but that's so commonplace that nobody
notices the correlation.

Jumping right in... there are sooo many things in the environment that
we barely know about. It might be too complicated to figure out which
ones are doing damage... not to mention all the toxic things we do
know about. I guess all you can do is try to limit your exposure to
the things you do know about.

I suppose, but probably within moderation. Another fact, that I
recall from somewhere but am failing to google quickly, is that the
toxins in our current environment (in particular, the non-water-soluble
ones that accumulate in our bodies rather than being excreted)
would kill us all after about 200 years. But since we don't live that
long anyway, not a problem. However, should medical science extend our
lifespan to, say, 250 years, then the fda would have to rethink its
standards something fierce. So, in other words, you're being slowly
poisoned, pretty much no matter what you do. But lots of other stuff
is killing you, too. So the practical approach is to put them all in
order, and then just worry about the things you'll likely die from
first. Overweight and smoking pretty much top the list, with toxins
usually way down the list for most people (though ahead of asteroid
impacts and alien abductions, etc).
Likewise with those inexpensive air compressors, I'd think.
If the cheap plastic hosing, gaskets, etc, are outgassing, say,
lots of hydrogen cyanide, you probably ought to worry about it
immediately, if not sooner. But if it's more benign toxins, and you
only dive occasionally for bottom cleaning, prop unfouling, zincs,
whatever, then the tank, even with those toxins, might be safer
than snorkeling. Tough calculation.

What's the other choice... live under a rock and quake in fear?
Make sure to check the chemical composition of the rock, first.
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: where j=john and f=forkosh )

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 20:37:53 +0000 (UTC), JohnF
wrote:

Jessica B wrote:
JohnF wrote:

Bob wrote:
I buy organic Fuji apples all the time for $1.29 / lb hell
even our PNW grocery store Fred Meyer (piggle wiggle for you
coonasses) has an Organic section and sells great juicy organic cali
oranges for $0.88/lb That seems pretty cheep for an orange that
doesn?t have a bunch of nerve agents in its juice.

There was a semi-recent news story (several months ago, I can't
quickly find a link for you) about a woman who, concerned about
feeding her baby all those "nerve agents" you mentioned, was careful
to only buy certified organic apple juice. Unfortunately (you knew
there was a "but", right?), one batch hadn't been pasteurized properly,
and the kid died from botulism (or something like that -- I can't
quite recall).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for organic, but the world's not a
perfect place, and there's no perfect way to live in it. In this
case, some of those smaller organic farmers just didn't have the
resources to invest in all the best equipment that the larger
non-organic conglomerates can buy -- kind of analogous to the whole
cheap air compressor thing that started this thread.

yes, drinking coffee from a cup with lead in the glaze may
not kill you today My concern is 50 years of exposure or having the
most susceptible, our children getting their nervous system re-wired
because of metals in their diet. Do we still have lead potable water
supply pipes?

Interesting data point about that: in classical Rome, most people
lived maybe 30 or so years, but those that didn't die that (to us)
young usually dropped dead around 50 or so. Everybody just figured
that was old age. But we know better. So what killed them all off?
A lifetime drinking out of lead goblets. But that was so ubiquitous
in their society that nobody ever figured it out at the time.
Makes you wonder what we might be doing now that's killing us off
earlier than necessary, but that's so commonplace that nobody
notices the correlation.

Jumping right in... there are sooo many things in the environment that
we barely know about. It might be too complicated to figure out which
ones are doing damage... not to mention all the toxic things we do
know about. I guess all you can do is try to limit your exposure to
the things you do know about.

I suppose, but probably within moderation. Another fact, that I
recall from somewhere but am failing to google quickly, is that the
toxins in our current environment (in particular, the non-water-soluble
ones that accumulate in our bodies rather than being excreted)
would kill us all after about 200 years. But since we don't live that
long anyway, not a problem. However, should medical science extend our
lifespan to, say, 250 years, then the fda would have to rethink its
standards something fierce. So, in other words, you're being slowly
poisoned, pretty much no matter what you do. But lots of other stuff
is killing you, too. So the practical approach is to put them all in
order, and then just worry about the things you'll likely die from
first. Overweight and smoking pretty much top the list, with toxins
usually way down the list for most people (though ahead of asteroid
impacts and alien abductions, etc).
Likewise with those inexpensive air compressors, I'd think.
If the cheap plastic hosing, gaskets, etc, are outgassing, say,
lots of hydrogen cyanide, you probably ought to worry about it
immediately, if not sooner. But if it's more benign toxins, and you
only dive occasionally for bottom cleaning, prop unfouling, zincs,
whatever, then the tank, even with those toxins, might be safer
than snorkeling. Tough calculation.

What's the other choice... live under a rock and quake in fear?
Make sure to check the chemical composition of the rock, first.

I think the most likely cause of my demise will be from someone else's
car in the LA basin. Fricken lunatics. I almost got crunched this
morning.