On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:39:38 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, Gang,

Trying to insert info to either satisfy curiosiity or squelch criticsims
from the many barbs (and also to fill in blanks on the helpful ones) slung
at me along the way, here's how it all worked out:

I have an 880 AH house bank and a Group 27 marine deep-discharge starting
battery. They are connected to a Blue Sea switch. I have 4 total sources
of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter
charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda
eu2000i).

All charging sources are in good condition. As we nearly never run the
diesel, the other three are the usual charging sources.

All connections were inspected and tightened, and if it looked warranted,
removed first and burnished before replacement. Some of the connection
points were able to be tightened further than they were. At least one of
them, despite no movement possible without fear of breaking either lugs,
mounting posts or wire, proved to be useful, as the battery thingy (how's
*that* for scientific) discussed at length here in the past, designed to
pulse the battery to minimize or even cure sulfation, has not winked at me
for as long as I can remember - it does, now. So, either at the battery end
or the positive charging buss, tightening helped.

Despite that, nothing seemed to improve matters. Removing the wiring from
the switch, and then metering between the posts in all positions either had
no resistance or infinite resistance, as appropriate. However, it was noted
that the switch was miswired during installation by my electrical contractor
of the time, name left out to protect the innocent. The start lead was on
the start battery post. Thus, it was never able to be isolated from the
starter battery. It was moved to the common, allowing isolation when in
"off" or "House" mode. In "all" or "Start" mode, energy would be delivered
to the starter through the starter battery, or through the house battery if
in "House" or "all" mode.

That wasn't a full cure. The engine would start on the house bank, but only
with a shot of WD40 as encouragement. Of course, once started, it was much
more compliant with starting in subsequent attempts without that boost.
Still, it was reluctant to start on the house or start battery alone.

Off comes the starter. Turns out that the brushes COULD stand replacement.
More significantly, the ground straps to them are held in by self-tapping
screws. One of them was loose. New brushes and a replacement, longer (to
overcome the stripped tapered end of the loose one) machine screw assured a
better connection - "Dad's Chandlery" to the rescue!

While I had it out, I got the numbers off it so I can get a replacement when
I'm back in the states. I'll save the one I have as a spare, but not before
I have the commutator turned. Like every brushed motor, there was some lip
on it, but, significantly, not all the way around. The one with the loose
screw likely caused it to stop in the same place each time and, as well, not
have as much energy at that part on the commutator during startup (of the
starter), thus preventing as much wear as the rest of it...

Sure enough, the starter was a great deal happier after reinstallation.
Voltage drops during cranking (fuel off) were the same at the batteries and
the starter, so the wiring was OK. However, a mere "clunk" happened when
trying to start on just the start battery; the house bank turned it somewhat
slowly. That's what led to the exercise with the switch, shown above out of
sequence in the troubleshooting.

Well, dang. Pry open the non-serviceable cells and stick hydrometer in the
plenty-full cells. Sure enough, a bad cell. Didn't bother to do all of
them :{)) I cringe to think of what my still-under-warranty (of course, not
here) 80 buck battery will cost to replace. The guy I sold my spare
injectors to also had to replace his, so I expect I'll be in for a similar
300 or so for mine.

My electrical wizard (Andrew, if you're ever in the Abacos, is widely
recognized as the guy who, if there's a wire attached to it, can figure it
out, fix it, or make it work, if it's not destroyed) assures me that a new
battery will easily start this engine. So, back to NAPA/AID tomorrow for
another battery.

Meanwhile, I've had an annoying drip of diesel fuel at a banjo bolt in the
injector pump. Not a flow, not a squirt, but a drip, over time. Analysis
has it that is why a shot of WD40 let it start immediately - it had
depressurized, and turning it over to start took longer than it should to
bring it back to full pressure. Finding crush washers for this banjo bolt
will be interesting, but our dear friends who've just sold their boat
finally used copper washers instead of the aluminum ones when they faced
about the same problem in the Caribbean; perhaps, even though there are
currently no aluminum washers to be found, I can find some copper ones.
I've previously tightened that bolt to the degree that I feared I'd do one
of my Sampson routines and break it, as I have done on so many other bolts;
I'd be really in it if that happened, so didn't push it. I'm sure that will
help.

My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine?
40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which
uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings.


As a final test, we ran the battery down (it had shown slap full all day, as
it started full when we began, and the wind and sun kept up with the loads
we had on) by running the microwave and all the other AC devices we could
find, and all the DC loads we could turn on. When the voltage had dropped to
12, and the amphours were down over 50, we energized the alternator, pushed
back in the fuel shutoff (enabling fuel), and hit the start button.
Vrroooom! on "both" "Clunk" on the starter battery (no surprise).
RRRVrroooom! on the house bank.

Andrew first did all the things I'd already done, and was beginning to get
frustrated, despite allowing that he had a similar patience quotient to
mine. It was then that the starter came off, the connections were tightened
to the degree I was concerned for breakage and, significantly, the starter
lead moved to the common point from the start battery point on the switch.
Those were the differences from what I'd already done. 2.5 hours, including
doing the checks I'd done, and he was outta here (not counting the time he
went back ashore to pay some bills while I went to NAPA for the brushes, of
which I got two sets so can do this again if I need to). In all this, he
was cheerful, instructive (not minding my looking over his shoulder to learn
along the way) and accepting of, or needing, my help. I confess to having
dug out my remote starter switch as it got a bit tiresome to run up and down
the companionway for each start sequence, but that aside, we got along
famously.

So, absent only the final proof that the new, presumed outrageously
expensive, starter battery will, in fact, start the diesel, I'd say we'd put
that one to bed. I'll do some further testing later by intentionally
letting the battery bank get low and seeing if it will start that way,
before we head south. I've got a bunch of to-do's so I'll be occupied for a
few days, anyway. However, given the drain we put on as a test, I will be
astounded if it doesn't kick right off.

Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or
auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while,

Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the
wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that
will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer!

L8R, y'all!

Skip
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:09:57 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or
auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while,

He's in the Bahamas and everything has to be shipped in from the US.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:29:20 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:09:57 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or
auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while,

He's in the Bahamas and everything has to be shipped in from the US.

Goodness, don't they have trucks in the Bahamas :-?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

In article ,
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine?
40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which
uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings.

Which can be reused, if you just re-anneal them....

"you" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine?
40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which
uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings.

Which can be reused, if you just re-anneal them....

I'm sure I once knew,. but., being afflicted with CRS, don't recall.

How do I do that, again?

Thanks for the tip, if I get that desperate...

Meanwhile, we've been intentionally stressing the battery to pull it down
today. After our movie, we were down to 11.7 volts and about 275AH down.

Started right up. Immediate shutdown, switch to the new - disappointingly,
much smaller footprint, a lot lighter but 1000CCA vs the prior 875 start
battery we used to have but, indeed, had never used independently - and it
cranked lots faster, despite, having sat for hoonose how long, only 12.1V
showing; of course, it started right up, as well. This with all the useful
background loads, of course, so it prolly was higher if disconnected.

So, we're declaring victory and going home, so to speak. The only real
remaining tests will be to let it sit for an extended period of time and see
if it's slower to start due to the presumed depressurization of the #1
injector (that's the banjo in question). In the meantime, I'll explore
other opportunities for locally sourced proper crush washers.

L8R, y'll!

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

http://www.motorcycle.co.uk/Referenc...m-washers.aspx



PS: I just use a magic marker on aluminum,
Color it black - and burn the black off (use a propane torch!)
RL




Better to re-anneal the washer if you are going to re-use it.

Why? - When you 'work' copper or aluminium, it goes hard. Tightening an
oil-drain plug against a washer 'works' the metal. 'Annealing' means 'making it
soft so it deforms again'.

Here's how....

Grab 2 pairs of pointy-nose pliers. Wipe any oil/grit off the washer and take it
into the kitchen. Erm, you do have a gas cooker, don't you ?
(Alternatively, gas welding kit; blowtorch; or some other source of safe flame.
A cigarette lighter isn't enough heat, a hot air gun won't do it either. A gas
cooker is the thing you want. A camping stove will do.)

You need to get it hot enough, but obviously not melt it:
Copper: which you recognise because it is copper-coloured.

You need to get copper 'dull red'. Dull Red is one of those technical terms
engineers use. It just means roast it until it glows a dull red. In order, as
you heat metal, it goes:

*
slightly reddish tinge - this isn't hot enough to do anything
*
dull red
*
cherry red - properly 'red', but somewhere less than orange
*
orangey-yellow - way further than you need to go
*
white-hot - its about to melt, stop it.

Aluminium: which is not copper-coloured, it is grey.

Wipe washing up liquid on it. When you heat this, it boils, then burns to a
black deposit. That's the heat at which its done. (Alternatively, you can cover
it with soot from a sooty flame, then when this soot burns off, you are done.
But Fairy Liquid is easier.)



So, using one pair of pointy-nose pliers, hold the washer in the flame until you
get to the temperature you want. Then hold it by the other side, so you can heat
the bit that was under the pliers. Heat it as evenly as you can, and for
something as small as a washer, it can take as little as seconds, so pay attention.

Once it has been cooked all over, let it cool down naturally. You don't need to
quench it in water or anything.
Note well. You want 2 pairs of pliers. ITS GOING TO BE HOT, so you don't want to
touch it with your fingers. DO NOT let it touch exposed skin. DO NOT lay it on
the kitchen table to cool down.

And that's it, your washer is 're-annealed'. Brush off any sooty deposits, refit
it to the bike and it will form itself to a tight seal again. You can stand back
and feel all smug and pleased with yourself

Footnotes:

Did you burn yourself, you muppet? Stick the burn under the cold tap for 10
minutes. Butter is an old wives' tale and doesn't help. Leave it under the tap
as long as you can stand, at least some minutes. Broken skin, treat with
antiseptic cream and a sticking plaster.

You don't want to re-anneal washers more than a few times. The metal will take
it, but after you've softened and squished it a few times, it's probably getting
a bit thin and deformed. It may start to be loose on the drain plug, so it may
not be seating against the faces the manufacturer meant it to. If you notice
this, get new washers for the next oil change.

This annealing process works for copper and aluminium washers. In fact, the
process is the same for any non-ferrous (non-steel) metal. Copper or Aluminium
are what your oil-plug drain washers will be made of.....

......unless you have a really old bike which might have fibre washers (look like
reddy-orange fibreglass, hard felt, or tarry cloth). Just re-use until they crumble.

......or what are often known as 'Dowty Washers', metal washers with a rubber
insert. Re-use until the rubber becomes worn, damaged, or hardened with heat/age.

You do not need to anneal new washers. They come out of the manufacturing
process soft and ductile. You only need to re-anneal used washers that have been
worked.

If you are doing a copper gasket as opposed to a washer, perhaps a cylinder head
gasket, some people like to cool by quenching in water. Drop it in edge first
for quick, even quenching. Quenching isn't strictly necessary, the rate of
cooling makes no difference to the resulting softness. For something as
mission-critical as a head gasket, you only want to re-use it in an emergency,
but it would certainly help the seal if you can re-anneal.

The annealing process does not soften steel washers. If you heat and cool steel
- it gets hard and brittle.

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
"you" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine?
40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which
uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings.

Which can be reused, if you just re-anneal them....

I'm sure I once knew,. but., being afflicted with CRS, don't recall.

How do I do that, again?

Thanks for the tip, if I get that desperate...

Meanwhile, we've been intentionally stressing the battery to pull it down
today. After our movie, we were down to 11.7 volts and about 275AH down.

Started right up. Immediate shutdown, switch to the new -
disappointingly, much smaller footprint, a lot lighter but 1000CCA vs the
prior 875 start battery we used to have but, indeed, had never used
independently - and it cranked lots faster, despite, having sat for
hoonose how long, only 12.1V showing; of course, it started right up, as
well. This with all the useful background loads, of course, so it prolly
was higher if disconnected.

So, we're declaring victory and going home, so to speak. The only real
remaining tests will be to let it sit for an extended period of time and
see if it's slower to start due to the presumed depressurization of the #1
injector (that's the banjo in question). In the meantime, I'll explore
other opportunities for locally sourced proper crush washers.



Ha ha ha. I think you're barking up the wrong tree blaming the
batteries/electrical system.

Don't blame the leak at the banjo bolt either. Blame the injector itself.
It's probably gone bad and is leaking down and too much raw diesel which
normally pressurizes the fuel system is flooding the cylinder, raising the
compression making it difficult for any battery to turn the piece of that
troublesome, crap diesel engine over.

I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard

Come on, Wilbur...

Pay attention!

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news:4cca1add$0


Ha ha ha. I think you're barking up the wrong tree blaming the
batteries/electrical system.

As it starts just fine with the bank well depleted, and much faster with the
somewhat depleted new start battery (you DO know that all wet cells
self-discharge over time, right?). Batteries were arguably the problem,
along with the starter brushes; that's no longer a problem.


Don't blame the leak at the banjo bolt either. Blame the injector itself.
It's probably gone bad and is leaking down and too much raw diesel which
normally pressurizes the fuel system is flooding the cylinder, raising the
compression making it difficult for any battery to turn the piece of that
troublesome, crap diesel engine over.

Read for content, Wilbur. The banjo in question is at the injector PUMP,
not the return (the only banjo on the injector) line.

A leaking injector would not cause a drip at the banjo bolt on the pump. In
any case, at least as I understand injectors, because they require huge
pressure to discharge, and withstand huge compression pressures, it's
unlikely to leak there. MAYBE not fire cuz it's clogged - but not leak. In
any case, unless you're afflicted with CRS (not surprising at your age),
you'll recall these are new in the winter, so, unlikley to have suffered any
of those problems.

L8R

Skip


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 09:44:46 -0800, you wrote:

In article ,
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine?
40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which
uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings.

Which can be reused, if you just re-anneal them....


Providing that you didn't drop them down in the bilge when you took
them out :-)
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:09:57 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:39:38 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, Gang,

Trying to insert info to either satisfy curiosiity or squelch criticsims
from the many barbs (and also to fill in blanks on the helpful ones) slung
at me along the way, here's how it all worked out:

I have an 880 AH house bank and a Group 27 marine deep-discharge starting
battery. They are connected to a Blue Sea switch. I have 4 total sources
of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter
charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda
eu2000i).

All charging sources are in good condition. As we nearly never run the
diesel, the other three are the usual charging sources.

All connections were inspected and tightened, and if it looked warranted,
removed first and burnished before replacement. Some of the connection
points were able to be tightened further than they were. At least one of
them, despite no movement possible without fear of breaking either lugs,
mounting posts or wire, proved to be useful, as the battery thingy (how's
*that* for scientific) discussed at length here in the past, designed to
pulse the battery to minimize or even cure sulfation, has not winked at me
for as long as I can remember - it does, now. So, either at the battery end
or the positive charging buss, tightening helped.

Despite that, nothing seemed to improve matters. Removing the wiring from
the switch, and then metering between the posts in all positions either had
no resistance or infinite resistance, as appropriate. However, it was noted
that the switch was miswired during installation by my electrical contractor
of the time, name left out to protect the innocent. The start lead was on
the start battery post. Thus, it was never able to be isolated from the
starter battery. It was moved to the common, allowing isolation when in
"off" or "House" mode. In "all" or "Start" mode, energy would be delivered
to the starter through the starter battery, or through the house battery if
in "House" or "all" mode.

That wasn't a full cure. The engine would start on the house bank, but only
with a shot of WD40 as encouragement. Of course, once started, it was much
more compliant with starting in subsequent attempts without that boost.
Still, it was reluctant to start on the house or start battery alone.

Off comes the starter. Turns out that the brushes COULD stand replacement.
More significantly, the ground straps to them are held in by self-tapping
screws. One of them was loose. New brushes and a replacement, longer (to
overcome the stripped tapered end of the loose one) machine screw assured a
better connection - "Dad's Chandlery" to the rescue!

While I had it out, I got the numbers off it so I can get a replacement when
I'm back in the states. I'll save the one I have as a spare, but not before
I have the commutator turned. Like every brushed motor, there was some lip
on it, but, significantly, not all the way around. The one with the loose
screw likely caused it to stop in the same place each time and, as well, not
have as much energy at that part on the commutator during startup (of the
starter), thus preventing as much wear as the rest of it...

Sure enough, the starter was a great deal happier after reinstallation.
Voltage drops during cranking (fuel off) were the same at the batteries and
the starter, so the wiring was OK. However, a mere "clunk" happened when
trying to start on just the start battery; the house bank turned it somewhat
slowly. That's what led to the exercise with the switch, shown above out of
sequence in the troubleshooting.

Well, dang. Pry open the non-serviceable cells and stick hydrometer in the
plenty-full cells. Sure enough, a bad cell. Didn't bother to do all of
them :{)) I cringe to think of what my still-under-warranty (of course, not
here) 80 buck battery will cost to replace. The guy I sold my spare
injectors to also had to replace his, so I expect I'll be in for a similar
300 or so for mine.

My electrical wizard (Andrew, if you're ever in the Abacos, is widely
recognized as the guy who, if there's a wire attached to it, can figure it
out, fix it, or make it work, if it's not destroyed) assures me that a new
battery will easily start this engine. So, back to NAPA/AID tomorrow for
another battery.

Meanwhile, I've had an annoying drip of diesel fuel at a banjo bolt in the
injector pump. Not a flow, not a squirt, but a drip, over time. Analysis
has it that is why a shot of WD40 let it start immediately - it had
depressurized, and turning it over to start took longer than it should to
bring it back to full pressure. Finding crush washers for this banjo bolt
will be interesting, but our dear friends who've just sold their boat
finally used copper washers instead of the aluminum ones when they faced
about the same problem in the Caribbean; perhaps, even though there are
currently no aluminum washers to be found, I can find some copper ones.
I've previously tightened that bolt to the degree that I feared I'd do one
of my Sampson routines and break it, as I have done on so many other bolts;
I'd be really in it if that happened, so didn't push it. I'm sure that will
help.

My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine?
40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which
uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings.


Correction. I should have written CAV, not CV.



As a final test, we ran the battery down (it had shown slap full all day, as
it started full when we began, and the wind and sun kept up with the loads
we had on) by running the microwave and all the other AC devices we could
find, and all the DC loads we could turn on. When the voltage had dropped to
12, and the amphours were down over 50, we energized the alternator, pushed
back in the fuel shutoff (enabling fuel), and hit the start button.
Vrroooom! on "both" "Clunk" on the starter battery (no surprise).
RRRVrroooom! on the house bank.

Andrew first did all the things I'd already done, and was beginning to get
frustrated, despite allowing that he had a similar patience quotient to
mine. It was then that the starter came off, the connections were tightened
to the degree I was concerned for breakage and, significantly, the starter
lead moved to the common point from the start battery point on the switch.
Those were the differences from what I'd already done. 2.5 hours, including
doing the checks I'd done, and he was outta here (not counting the time he
went back ashore to pay some bills while I went to NAPA for the brushes, of
which I got two sets so can do this again if I need to). In all this, he
was cheerful, instructive (not minding my looking over his shoulder to learn
along the way) and accepting of, or needing, my help. I confess to having
dug out my remote starter switch as it got a bit tiresome to run up and down
the companionway for each start sequence, but that aside, we got along
famously.

So, absent only the final proof that the new, presumed outrageously
expensive, starter battery will, in fact, start the diesel, I'd say we'd put
that one to bed. I'll do some further testing later by intentionally
letting the battery bank get low and seeing if it will start that way,
before we head south. I've got a bunch of to-do's so I'll be occupied for a
few days, anyway. However, given the drain we put on as a test, I will be
astounded if it doesn't kick right off.

Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or
auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while,

Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the
wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that
will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer!

L8R, y'all!

Skip
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)