On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:54:24 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, Y'all,

I'm concatenating some responses here; actually, I've been thinking about
getting back to y'all on this particular point due to musings on the
circumstance.

So, my thoughts/comments are in-line...

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .

Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions.

1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery?
Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated.

I actually do have that, as well as a separate windlass battery. These are
separate from the house battery, on a combiner (separate charging path, with
those two having the combiner). I replaced the entire battery system
(house, windlass, starter) when I got the new inverter/charger.

2. Given the talk about starting redundancy, you have the Honda
generator at hand, so you're a step up there.

Heh. The Russian thread made me want to note that while I wasn't being OCD,
I *did* have the one-cylinder starting machine :{)) I don't believe that
compressed air would work for Perky, as he's not set up for it, and I can't
imagine a flywheel start, as there's no place to get in front of the engine
(let alone that it's not set up for that, either).

The house batteries sucked up the juice though, and delayed the
starting. Hooking the gen to an isolated but depleted starting
battery would have probably given a quicker start.

We had ample juice, with our 880AH bank at about 80-90% (don't recall
precisely at the moment). It was the voltage which was the issue.
Literally in a minute or so from starting the Honda, as the voltage leaped,
it cranked much faster, and started immediately.

When I replaced this starter (and bought the spare solenoid cuz it was
affordable vs another entire starter), my old one was making the same
symptoms. Slow start, relatively slow (by comparison to the new) rotations.

and

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .
Yes, a lot of boats have isolated starting batteries. It's good
insurance, also a switchable voltage meter is a good idea for keeping
an eye on things, and a switch for paralleling the batteries in an
emergency start situation.

I have that, too, with the typical 1-2-all-off switch (new when I did my
'04-'07 refit), and our meter draws from that. So, I don't have separate
feeds to the start and house banks, but the above switch functions that way.

My meter is a TriMetric multi-tool thing which allows me to see many
different pieces of information about the history, state and health of the
battery. However, you set it up to match the size and age of the battery
involved, and since in my case that's the house, I'm not sure it's fully
meaningful, other than volts, WRT the smaller batteries. The T-Ms are
expensive enough that I'm not going to install one for the start/windlass
system.

Further, while my electrician help at the time (svhotwire.com's John
Gambill) assured me that this setup was appropriate, I'm wondering if I
shouldn't install an isolator (I think is the term) which would make the
charging circuit to the start/windlass batteries behave by itself.

I'm not adequate in charging system design to know if that's right, or even
needed against what I have now. More research is needed (sorry, Bob!)
before I'm comfortable making a switch (pardon the expression) or addendum.

I'm still concerned that there is some other issue with Skip's engine
however. Usually if a small diesel will crank, it will also start
right away. That's assuming that compression is good and that the
injection system is not leaking air someplace. Until confident that
all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a
short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK.

Heh. With our aversion to running the engine, and expecting that there are
a finite number of start cycles in solenoids and starters, we might not do
that. Fortunately, I do have a spare solenoid, but not a spare starter...

I presume that's the actual issue - how fast is it turning over? You'll
recall the Dr. Diesel debacle (FWIW, I encountered yet another similarly
"satisfied" customer here in Marsh Harbour this year - except that his was
an engine, so the screwing got extremely more expensive, but with all the
same bells and whistles as mine - same bait-and-switch, same eventual much
higher cost, same "he's got my parts so I'm stuck" and all the rest...), so
you know that I have fresh injectors. Indeed, my fuel usage rate has
dropped nicely since those were installed.

So, I'm wondering about whether I need another starter when I return to the
states in April for a wedding, and whether I should get one for spares.
They're monstrous things, unlike a similarly horsed Yanmar, which entire
starter isn't much bigger than my solenoid, so not only cost is of concern
here...

and

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
om...

Agreed.

I'm thinking grounds.
But then that's a safe bet most of the time...


--

Richard Lamb



That's certainly worth pursuit/examination. Not a big deal, as there aren't
very many places I'd have to fiddle with to establish that. I'm reminded of
my troubleshooting my masthead, foredeck light fixture a couple of years
ago. Turned out it wasn't bulbs, and though I had voltage there, I had no
power; it was a loose ground in the electrical cabinet. Turn the screw, and
it all worked again :{))

Back to Vic:

But aside from isolating the starting battery, have you thought about
an "instant start" device hookup between the Honda and the engine
starter?
I have a fairly cheap - maybe 50 bucks - Sears battery charger with 3
and 10 amp modes and an "instant start" mode.
Used the "quick start" a couple times on my "spare" car when the
battery went virtually dead due to a parasitic draw, when the
situation dictated. (Frigid weather, and car too far from the house
to leave the charger and extension cords out for a slow charge.)

Don't know the electrical details of the "instant start" except you're
converting 120V to 12V with lots of amps.
I ASSume it would have started my car with the battery disconnected
without frying the starter, but never tried that.
With the Honda gen at hand it might be an option for quick
starter redundancy, and worthy of entry on the project list.
After doing the electrical specs, the wiring/switching would be a
"plumbing" type design issue, ala Roger's fuel polishing system.

I'm not sure of the amps needed to make our starter spin happily. I know
that our new (2007) starter spun enormously faster than the one it replaced.
This one's starting (pardon the expression!) to sound a bit like that, other
than in an already-hot start.

Something else that comes to mind regarding critical systems is a "low
battery" alarm.
Since you were almost wrecked because of a low battery, maybe you
already have this on you list.

Not a low battery at all, see above... However, we do have several low
battery alarms aboard, not the least of which is the TriMetric, which shows
us actual AH down, as well as % of charge, plus days since equalization,
days since charged, hi and low points in voltage history and a bunch of
other stuff.

BTW, for some relief from the nitpicking and outright condemnation you
sometimes draw here, I enjoy your posts and respect your abilities.
Since you put the Pig on a reef, you've come a long way baby.
And as Frankie sang, you did it your way.

Heh. Thanks. I think we may have flattened the learning curve just a bit
:{)) And, it's been "my way" my entire life - if I didn't want to do it,
mostly I just didn't :{))

It also probably contributes to my somewhat-evenhanded responses to some of
the kicks and digs I get. Like, (this one's for you, Bob, since I know you
advocate it) "**** you, too" if it's nasty, or self-examination and
agreement with some of the more benevolent commentary on our misadventures.

Like the old saying, "you've not been around if you've not been aground,"
I'm just much more willing to admit them :{))

Thanks, y'all, for the ideas and commentary. I HAVE been proven educable
:{))

L8R

Skip, working on the October Ooohs! coming post to follow later (not today!)


Skip,

Do one thing.

1. Tell us what batteries are connected to the motor when you tried to
start it.

2. Take a multi-meter and check the voltage at the battery terminals
when NOT cranking the motor. Take the voltage at the starter
terminals. Is it the same?

3. What is this voltage.

4. Measure voltage at battery terminals and then while measuring try
to start motor - what voltage did the batteries drop to?

5. Do the same thing at the starter terminals. Is battery voltage the
same as at batteries when starting?

A. If the battery voltage and the voltage at the starter terminals
isn't essentially the same then you have a bad connection.

B. If battery voltage drops significantly then you do not have
sufficient battery capacity - either because the batteries aren't
sufficiently charged or because of condition of batteries.

By the way, I hate to tell you but your fancy battery meter isn't as
accurate as a simple volt meter and costs considerably more. It is not
accurate either :-) It isn't very accurate either - because of the
Peukert Effect (you can google that) the meter can never do better
then approximate the battery charge.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)