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Default On water in the Bahamas

On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 14:28:29 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 11:15:30 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:

and those same guys go around telling people they are not safe and
stupid to cruise with out a tx ham radio. Have your fun soldering
Heath Kits together but be realistic when it comes to reliable and
safe at-sea communication.


Almost all of the pleasure boats that I know who engage in
offshore/international cruising have a marine SSB radio aboard, and
they are not necessarily ham radio operators although some are. Many
also have a sat phone of some sort and an EPIRB. We don't have a sat
phone but do have the SSB and EPIRB. If we were crossing oceans I'd
probably get the sat phone also, for redundancy if nothing else.


A good friend did a cost analysis on long distance communication for
his new Cat. He calculated that, not including installation, the SSB
was more expensive then the Sat-phone, as well as being more
complicated to install on a new boat. So he installed the Sat-phone.

However, I don't believe that he is using Iradium, rather he is using
a system that uses a fixed satellite with a foot print covering the
Asian region and I know that he has coverage at least from Hong Kong
to Thailand and the Malaysian peninsular. This system may be cheaper
then Iradium which is a world wide system.

I priced a similar system in Singapore a year or so ago and from
memory you could get on the air for less then US$1,000, closer to
700-800 U.S. dollars. The "gimmick" is that the top-up cards are
limited in how long a particular top-up is valid. If you don't use the
minutes by a certain date they automatically expire. So you always
need an extra top-up "card" on hand. This also applies to the pre-paid
hand-phone systems so the idea is commonly used in communication
systems here.

He uses some sort of e-mail service and can send e-mail from his
laptop on the boat to an Internet e-mail server somewhere, so his
communication is equal to any Internet system anywhere. And of course,
he can make voice calls.

What I see here is that the older boats all have a pactor system and
newer boats have Satellite phones.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
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Default On water in the Bahamas

A good friend did a cost analysis on long distance communication for
his new Cat. He calculated that, not including installation, the SSB
was more expensive then the Sat-phone, as well as being more
complicated to install on a new boat. So he installed the Sat-phone.

What I see here is that the older boats all have a pactor system and
newer boats have Satellite phones.


Cheers,

Bruce


Yes, Bruce I wonder how much it would cost in LABOR to install
everything a SSB radio requires. but im sure many here are knowledgble
on that. SSB served the world well for years. But there are things out
there now that can take its place and do it cheeper, faster, better

But some people the club atmospher of being a HAM radio operator.
Besides you dont even have to take morse code any more to be a HAM
which Im sure drives many of the old timmers crazy!
Personnally I sont use radio for pleasure or chit chat. I use irridium
for business and emergency. If I want to talk to some one Ill jsut
come here to my favorite discussion bard REC BOATS CRUISING The
best darn little place to talk to friends i know and love

XOXOXOXOoxoo
Bob
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Default On water in the Bahamas

On Jun 8, 2:15 pm, Bob wrote:
Personally, less complicated is better that is unless you are
the second typ of person who supports use of ssb tx


Are you kidding? HF is much simpler than sat phones.


No not at all.......... you see I do not look inside the case. I look
to reliability, expense, and ease of use. So when I say iridium is
more simple campoared to SSB I am not refering to the inside circuits
I refer to reliablity, ease of use, overall coast including
installation and maintainence hours.


I think you may be confused. In my experience, equipment reliability
is very similar as long as the sat phone is permanently installed; if
a handheld phone is used it is subject to all the damage due to drops
and to water as any other bit of handheld gear. For ease of use the
sat phone is certainly ahead, particularly on voice calls with the
added benefit of a familiar user interface (just dial the number).
Cost goes up on the sat phone with time as the minutes are still
pretty expensive. Installation is similar in complexity. Maintenance
is close to zero for both.

One of the hidden "gotchas" of sat phones is that for any reasonable
chance of a connection you need the car kit and external antenna. At
that point you have all the same kind of installation woes of an SSB,
although the power wiring is a good bit easier. The installation is
much more finicky for the RF side of a sat phone.

For me it comes down to the ability to get a message through. I don't
want to spend more time than necessary hunched over the nav station.
In my personal experience, based on use of both marine SSB and ham
radio and of sat phones at sea on passage, sometimes with both on
board, the message gets through more reliably with the radios than
with a sat phone. On a delivery of a Swan 47 we gave up on the sat
phone and used the SSB for everything. On Valentines Day the watch
schedule was a mess as we all tried to make calls home. It took hours.
I should have thought to look for a phone patch.

There are certainly cruisers who are quite content with sat phones.
Evans Starzinger and Beth Leonard come to mind. Very few have any
experience with SSB - they made their choices and it turned out okay
for them. Good for them. From what I understand of their sat phone
installation, including the software and the special shoreside
services for compression and discontiuous data transmission (to
accommodate dropped calls), the sat phone rig is the most complex
system there is on Hawk. Their are others who have struggled mightily
to get sat phone installations to work properly. The same--good and
bad--can be said about the experience of cruisers with SSB. Some of us
have used both sorts of technology side-by-side; I for one would much
rather have an SSB than a sat phone.

and youre not a Sailing/Vessel you are a Sailing/Yacht (S/Y)


Yacht seems rather pretentious. She is quite a nice boat though.

A good friend did a cost analysis on long distance communication for
his new Cat. He calculated that, not including installation, the SSB
was more expensive then the Sat-phone, as well as being more
complicated to install on a new boat. So he installed the Sat-phone.


Interesting. Do you know what he included in running costs? Was it
amortization of the up-front equipment costs over a small number of
years? There is some quite good equipment available that isn't so
dear, but if you just tick the box for an Icom 802 things can get
pricey, especially for the international GMDSS version. The running
costs though are quite minor. Winlink is free assuming a ham license
and the commercial e-mail services are all around 250 USD / year.

If you have to talk directly to someone who doesn't have a radio it is
a bit more work. You can still find hams who run phone patches (free).
On the commercial side ShipCom has reduced their rates to 1 USD /
minute for calls to the US. Rates for other countries vary by country.
It's definitely more work than dialing a sat phone but cheaper.

I priced a similar system in Singapore a year or so ago and from
memory you could get on the air for less then US$1,000, closer to
700-800 U.S. dollars.


And then you go back later for a car-kit and an antenna after you
become sufficiently frustrated with poor connections and dropped
calls. If you are really unlucky, you dropped your sat phone over the
side just after your laptop got doused by water since you were in the
cockpit trying to get a connection after giving up below.

73 es sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
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Default On water in the Bahamas

rOn Wed, 9 Jun 2010 04:10:50 -0700 (PDT), Auspicious
wrote:

On Jun 8, 2:15 pm, Bob wrote:
Personally, less complicated is better that is unless you are
the second typ of person who supports use of ssb tx



A good friend did a cost analysis on long distance communication for
his new Cat. He calculated that, not including installation, the SSB
was more expensive then the Sat-phone, as well as being more
complicated to install on a new boat. So he installed the Sat-phone.


Interesting. Do you know what he included in running costs? Was it
amortization of the up-front equipment costs over a small number of
years? There is some quite good equipment available that isn't so
dear, but if you just tick the box for an Icom 802 things can get
pricey, especially for the international GMDSS version. The running
costs though are quite minor. Winlink is free assuming a ham license
and the commercial e-mail services are all around 250 USD / year.


Yes, he was referring to initial costs only - assuming that he had
nothing but VHF installed. His estimates were, as I thought I
indicated, for initial cost only.

If you have to talk directly to someone who doesn't have a radio it is
a bit more work. You can still find hams who run phone patches (free).
On the commercial side ShipCom has reduced their rates to 1 USD /
minute for calls to the US. Rates for other countries vary by country.
It's definitely more work than dialing a sat phone but cheaper.

I priced a similar system in Singapore a year or so ago and from
memory you could get on the air for less then US$1,000, closer to
700-800 U.S. dollars.


And then you go back later for a car-kit and an antenna after you
become sufficiently frustrated with poor connections and dropped
calls. If you are really unlucky, you dropped your sat phone over the
side just after your laptop got doused by water since you were in the
cockpit trying to get a connection after giving up below.

No, I'm fairly knowledgeable about radio systems and certainly
knowledgeable enough to know when I don't know something and seek
advise. The cost, if I recollect, was for a remote antenna, the phone
itself and an interface box to allow connection to a computer.

I honestly do not recollect the cost of calls other then that it was
cheaper then Iradium and the area was limited to S.E. Asia due to the
stationary satellite used. The "top-up" cards were $100 each and
limited in life time but I do not remember anything else except that
calls to various countries were made at varying costs.

I might add that the friend works as a off shore drilling
superintendent and mentioned that on the Rigs they don't use SSB phone
patches for phone calls any more. They all use satellite phones. I
believe that is where he got the idea to investigate them for use on
his boat.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
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Default Ham email and blogs (was) On water in the Bahamas

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 22:20:12 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Skip, off Shroud Cay


If you have not yet done so, take your dinghy through the northern
most creek on Shroud Cay to the east side, find the trail, and climb
the hill. It's a great dinghy ride and a great view - best done at
high tide.


No kidding. At low tide, it's a very long walk to get there :{))

Had a lovely dinghy ride up the mangroves yesterday early evening, but
grounded this morning before gettng in the entry...

N0IA is one of my frequent tries; I have no current need for him, but
I'll
remember about the long connect times.

My pactor is set for III but it bounces around depending on tx/rx
strength...

L8R

Skip

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its hand. You seek problems because you need their gifts."

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Default On water in the Bahamas

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:24:52 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:

THe only reason ssb on boats is stil here
is becuase there is a group of sprots/amature enthusisast who enjoy
jaw jacking and then tell everyone who owns a boat they have to have
one to be safe. Its like a cult similar to Amway or Scientology. Its a
club gone birkshire.....


Nonsense. I rarely talk on ours, everything is digital EMAIL, GRIB
files, position reporting or weather FAX. Wouldn't leave home
without it. SSB has come a long way in the last 10 years or so.
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On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 19:24:20 -0700 (PDT), Skip Gundlach
wrote:

My pactor is set for III but it bounces around depending on tx/rx
strength...


Assuming that your hardware is configured properly, Pactor 3 mode is
selected in the "frequency" pull-down of the Airmail Terminal window.
For example: 3580.0(P3)

If the frequency selection is not followed by (P3), you will not
connect in Pactor 3 mode.

Do you have the latest firmware loaded in your Pactor controller? I
upgraded mine last year and found that it improved my connection
speeds. You can download the latest version he

http://docksideradio.com/Firmware_update.htm

It is also important to have the Pactor audio output level set
correctly - too high and it causes distortion, too low and you are not
transmitting at full power.

Here is the process description from the Airmail help function:

Setting Audio Levels:

It is important that the audio output level from the Pactor mdem (TNC)
is set appropriately. Unless direct FSK keying is used, the modem
generates the audio signal that gets transmitted by the radio in SSB
mode. If the audio level is too low then the output power will be
reduced and communications will suffer. If the audio level is too high
then the transmitted signal will be full power but may be distorted,
perhaps severely, causing interference over a broad range of
frequencies. Besides being prohibited by regulation, such
"splattering" is also quite un-neighborly. The good news is that
setting the transmit audio level is relatively easy.

First, locate the adjustment. The PTC-II-family modems have
software-settable audio output levels which can be set from AirMail
using either the Options Window or the special audio-level toolbox
from the Terminal Window (Set Audio Level from the Control Window).
The KAM-98 and KAM-XL modems have software-settable audio levels,
adjusted via the modem's CAL command (use AIrmail's Tools/Dumb
Terminal window). The KAM+ controller uses an internal trimpot, R28,
and a jumper (J9) to select a high or low range. The PK-232 and MFJ
controllers use externally-accessible trimpots.

Also keep in mind that for many transceivers, the front-panel Mic gain
control is also active for the rear-panel audio input connection (even
though the Mic my be disabled), so be sure the Mic control is set to
the usual position before adjusting the controller.
To set the audio level you need to be transmitting. The objective is
to transmit full power, or close to it, without over-driving the
transmitter and requiring the ALC (Automatic Level Control) to crank
the power back, this is what causes distortion. Most ham transceivers
have built-in power-output meters as well as an indication of ALC
level.

First, find an unused frequency and start transmitting using Unproto
mode (Xmit Unproto from Terminal Window's Control menu). Starting from
a minimum audio level, increase the audio level and watch the
transceiver's output power meter - the power should smoothly increase
to the maximum level, or close to it, with no increase on the ALC
indicator. As you increase the audio level further, the output power
will no longer increase and the ALC will begin to increase instead.
Back off the adjustment until the ALC is near the bottom, well into
the "green" range, and the power-output about 60% of maximum. Click
the disconnect button to stop transmitting. Repeat this check on all
of the bands used as there may be differences. (If the differences are
large it may be an indication of RF feedback - see RF Isolation).

For a PTC-II controller there is a second audio level adjustment for
the Pactor-2 phase-shift (PSK) modulation. The PSK setting is
typically about 30% higher than the FSK level. Selecting PSK Unproto
will transmit a PSK signal and the PSK level can be adjusted as above.
Note that the average output power will be lower, this is because PSK
is a complex waveform and while the peak power is the same, the
average power density is about half of the peak.
Marine transceivers typically do not have an ALC meter, but the method
is the same. Increase the audio level until the output power level is
close to maximum and stops increasing, and then back off slightly. If
there is no output power indication, a DC ammeter provides an
excellent indication of output power. A transmitter putting out 100
watts will draw about 20 amps from 12-volt supply, and a marine
transceiver will draw up to 30 amps when putting out 150 watts. So
increase the audio level until the indicated current stops increasing,
and then back off to around 80 watts- 15-20 amps. .

Reducing the audio level, and operating with less output power, is
much better than too high a level and a distorted signal. The effect
of reduced output power is much less than one might expect. Your
signal will be reduced by one S-unit by dropping the power to half; in
other words to S-6 instead of S-7. A strong signal will still be a
strong signal, and a marginal signal will be only a little weaker.
Choosing the right time and frequency for good propagation, and
minimizing any on-board electrical interference will have a much
better payoff than trying to squeeze the last watt out of the
transmitter.

AirMail Help ©1997-2006 Jim Corenman
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Hi, Wayne, and list,

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
Assuming that your hardware is configured properly, Pactor 3 mode is
selected in the "frequency" pull-down of the Airmail Terminal window.
For example: 3580.0(P3)

If the frequency selection is not followed by (P3), you will not
connect in Pactor 3 mode.



Excellent pointer. I'd not been aware of that utility. I just did a scan
and saw the ones which have that (p3) after them as they went by. I'll try
to limit my tries in the future to those.

Currently, of course, as you're seeing this, we are blessed with a
connection off the northwest corner of Allens Cay, so telnet is nearly
instantaneous, but I'm not blessed with such largess (that's a lady large,
of course) in the middle of a passage :{))

Do you have the latest firmware loaded in your Pactor controller? I
upgraded mine last year and found that it improved my connection
speeds. You can download the latest version he

http://docksideradio.com/Firmware_update.htm


Just did that, too - mine was 3.9.x of the 3.3 build, now it reads 4.0


It is also important to have the Pactor audio output level set
correctly - too high and it causes distortion, too low and you are not
transmitting at full power.


I've done that, before. My marker was that the tx bar on my 802 never got
to the end, but about 2/3 of the way...

L8R

Skip, off to dive some more, then other activities Wilbur thinks are TMI
:{))

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in
its hand. You seek problems because you need their gifts."

(Richard Bach, in Illusions - The Reluctant Messiah)



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