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#1
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Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me...
On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:20:11 +0700, Bruce
wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 00:02:05 -0400, "Flying Pig" wrote: Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me... Spoiler: this will be long, due to the convoluted path it takes, along with documentation of what happened. This won't be pretty, including a couple of frank language instances - and before any raving fans get out, and sharpen, their swords, the documentation is clear, below... I read your tale of woe and frankly it is nearly unbelievable, oh yes, I believe that you went through all the trials and tribulation but perhaps it should be entitled "Innocents Abroad". Out of curiosity, why do you think you need spare injectors? Out of all the diesels I've worked on I can only remember changing one injector, and I'm not even sure that one was bad, We have two 300D Mercedes. At one point we were driving across the country and we couldn't get the car to start even with a jump. We stopped in Charleston SC, and the Mercedes place said 3 out of the 4 of them were bad. |
#2
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me...
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#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 00:28:49 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:15:27 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:06:17 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:20:11 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 00:02:05 -0400, "Flying Pig" wrote: Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me... Spoiler: this will be long, due to the convoluted path it takes, along with documentation of what happened. This won't be pretty, including a couple of frank language instances - and before any raving fans get out, and sharpen, their swords, the documentation is clear, below... I read your tale of woe and frankly it is nearly unbelievable, oh yes, I believe that you went through all the trials and tribulation but perhaps it should be entitled "Innocents Abroad". Out of curiosity, why do you think you need spare injectors? Out of all the diesels I've worked on I can only remember changing one injector, and I'm not even sure that one was bad, We have two 300D Mercedes. At one point we were driving across the country and we couldn't get the car to start even with a jump. We stopped in Charleston SC, and the Mercedes place said 3 out of the 4 of them were bad. To be frank I doubt that, or at least your description of the event. You are implying that 3 out of 4 injectors were so bad that the engine wouldn't start? And you drove it into the Mercedes place? If 3 of 4 injectors were so bad that they had to be changed the engine would have been shaking and rattling so bad that it is doubtful that you could have driven it. Are you sure that you aren't talking about the glow plugs? A far more likely source of the "engine won't start" syndrome. You are right - it was glow plugs. But we didn't drive to the Mercedes place - we had to get it towed. It was in January and really cold and nasty. Bob was really sick and couldn't sleep because of coughing. We were staying on the AFB and they said that a tow truck couldn't come on the base - that we'd have to go to the gate and meet them which was about a mile from where we were. Finally we had the idea of renting a car from Enterprise (there was one right on the base) and they came over to get him, and he then met the tow truck at the gate and followed him to the dealership. Glow plugs always have been a problem and most auto makers have several different models that can be used in the same engine. Too low a resistance means that the plugs get hot quickly but burn out faster while higher resistance means that they heat slower but last longer. The time we had trouble when we were in Memphis (it was the vacuum system or something - the car just had no power) we did drive it over. That Mercedes place wasn't as good. They took the doors apart and said they couldn't get the parts and finally Bob told them to put it together and give it back. He then went to an Autozone and got the part for about 85 cents, and took the door back apart and fixed it himself in the parking lot of the motel. Vacuum system? Doors? Was the center lock operated by a vacuum system? And where did they get it? most diesels don't have much vacuum, or actually don't have a throttle valve to restrict air flow. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me...
Bruce wrote:
Vacuum system? Doors? Was the center lock operated by a vacuum system? This discussion reminds me of the Mercedes 600 "GROSSER MERCEDES" as driven by Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear. It had hydraulically driven everything. Shock absorbers, windows, seats, trunk lid, fresh air vent. http://californiaclassix.com/archive/67_MB600.html sam |
#6
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me...
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#7
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:48:02 +0700, Bruce
wrote: On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 00:28:49 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:15:27 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:06:17 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:20:11 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 00:02:05 -0400, "Flying Pig" wrote: Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me... Spoiler: this will be long, due to the convoluted path it takes, along with documentation of what happened. This won't be pretty, including a couple of frank language instances - and before any raving fans get out, and sharpen, their swords, the documentation is clear, below... I read your tale of woe and frankly it is nearly unbelievable, oh yes, I believe that you went through all the trials and tribulation but perhaps it should be entitled "Innocents Abroad". Out of curiosity, why do you think you need spare injectors? Out of all the diesels I've worked on I can only remember changing one injector, and I'm not even sure that one was bad, We have two 300D Mercedes. At one point we were driving across the country and we couldn't get the car to start even with a jump. We stopped in Charleston SC, and the Mercedes place said 3 out of the 4 of them were bad. To be frank I doubt that, or at least your description of the event. You are implying that 3 out of 4 injectors were so bad that the engine wouldn't start? And you drove it into the Mercedes place? If 3 of 4 injectors were so bad that they had to be changed the engine would have been shaking and rattling so bad that it is doubtful that you could have driven it. Are you sure that you aren't talking about the glow plugs? A far more likely source of the "engine won't start" syndrome. You are right - it was glow plugs. But we didn't drive to the Mercedes place - we had to get it towed. It was in January and really cold and nasty. Bob was really sick and couldn't sleep because of coughing. We were staying on the AFB and they said that a tow truck couldn't come on the base - that we'd have to go to the gate and meet them which was about a mile from where we were. Finally we had the idea of renting a car from Enterprise (there was one right on the base) and they came over to get him, and he then met the tow truck at the gate and followed him to the dealership. Glow plugs always have been a problem and most auto makers have several different models that can be used in the same engine. Too low a resistance means that the plugs get hot quickly but burn out faster while higher resistance means that they heat slower but last longer. The time we had trouble when we were in Memphis (it was the vacuum system or something - the car just had no power) we did drive it over. That Mercedes place wasn't as good. They took the doors apart and said they couldn't get the parts and finally Bob told them to put it together and give it back. He then went to an Autozone and got the part for about 85 cents, and took the door back apart and fixed it himself in the parking lot of the motel. Vacuum system? Doors? Was the center lock operated by a vacuum system? And where did they get it? most diesels don't have much vacuum, or actually don't have a throttle valve to restrict air flow. Cheers, When the vacuum system on those cars was screwed up, the door locks and trunk lock didn't work - windows - nothing on the car would work. The vacuum system ran a lot of things on the car. On my car, if it sits for very long, I can only open the door with a key and none of the other doors or the trunk unlock like they are supposed to until after the engine is turned on and running. The original problem was a fuel restriction which kept the engine from developing any power. We dropped the car off and told them that. When we called the Mercedes place later, they said that the two left door locks were leaking (which we kind of knew) and they would have to replace them. By the next day they fixed the two window actuators which were leaking vacuum and had tested it and found more leaks and couldn't get the parts in less than 2 days, which would be Friday. Bob was annoyed because he didn't think that the vacuum system was the problem, he thought it was a fuel delivery problem. The next day the advisor called about 10. Bob asked if they had changed the fuel filter, and they had not. So he told them to do that. When we got to the dealership, he took it on a test drive, and we decided just to take it as it was - they had changed one fuel filter, but said they didn't have the other one - citing the fact that the car was 20 years old. The car door locks no longer worked, and it was shifting hard, and the engine wouldn't turn off. After we put gas in the rental and turned in it, Bob drove back to the Lodge - the acceleration is fine now. He bought the filter that the advisor said they didn't have at AutoZone for $3.00 After he ate lunch, and read his repair manual, he went out and looked at the car and figured out that the connector between the car door lock buttons and the actuator that they had fixed was missing. So he connected the two with a wire tie and voila, the engine now shuts off without having to turn it off from under the hood. |
#8
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:44:31 -0800, You wrote:
In article , wrote: You are right - it was glow plugs. But we didn't drive to the Mercedes place - we had to get it towed. It was in January and really cold and nasty. Bob was really sick and couldn't sleep because of coughing. We were staying on the AFB and they said that a tow truck couldn't come on the base - that we'd have to go to the gate and meet them which was about a mile from where we were. Finally we had the idea of renting a car from Enterprise (there was one right on the base) and they came over to get him, and he then met the tow truck at the gate and followed him to the dealership. The time we had trouble when we were in Memphis (it was the vacuum system or something - the car just had no power) we did drive it over. That Mercedes place wasn't as good. They took the doors apart and said they couldn't get the parts and finally Bob told them to put it together and give it back. He then went to an Autozone and got the part for about 85 cents, and took the door back apart and fixed it himself in the parking lot of the motel. Had you been a little bit more Diesel Savy, you would have known that all myou really needed to do was go grab Momma's Hair Dryer, and blow HOT Air down the Engine Intake Manifold, and that engine would have started on the first Compression Cycle of each Cyl. No need for any of the rest of the Story except you could have driven anywhere you wanted, as long as you didn;t let the engine cool off.... Ten Thousand Truckers can't be wrong.... and you thought that they kept those things in the Cab to blow Dry their Hair, Right? Sounds really logical..... until you begin to wonder why all those dumb-asses that manufacture the engines take the trouble to install glow-plugs, doesn't it? Another question that rears its ugly head is "where do you plug in your hair-dryer?" Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#9
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:54:10 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:48:02 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 00:28:49 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 08:15:27 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:06:17 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:20:11 +0700, Bruce wrote: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 00:02:05 -0400, "Flying Pig" wrote: Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me... Spoiler: this will be long, due to the convoluted path it takes, along with documentation of what happened. This won't be pretty, including a couple of frank language instances - and before any raving fans get out, and sharpen, their swords, the documentation is clear, below... I read your tale of woe and frankly it is nearly unbelievable, oh yes, I believe that you went through all the trials and tribulation but perhaps it should be entitled "Innocents Abroad". Out of curiosity, why do you think you need spare injectors? Out of all the diesels I've worked on I can only remember changing one injector, and I'm not even sure that one was bad, We have two 300D Mercedes. At one point we were driving across the country and we couldn't get the car to start even with a jump. We stopped in Charleston SC, and the Mercedes place said 3 out of the 4 of them were bad. To be frank I doubt that, or at least your description of the event. You are implying that 3 out of 4 injectors were so bad that the engine wouldn't start? And you drove it into the Mercedes place? If 3 of 4 injectors were so bad that they had to be changed the engine would have been shaking and rattling so bad that it is doubtful that you could have driven it. Are you sure that you aren't talking about the glow plugs? A far more likely source of the "engine won't start" syndrome. You are right - it was glow plugs. But we didn't drive to the Mercedes place - we had to get it towed. It was in January and really cold and nasty. Bob was really sick and couldn't sleep because of coughing. We were staying on the AFB and they said that a tow truck couldn't come on the base - that we'd have to go to the gate and meet them which was about a mile from where we were. Finally we had the idea of renting a car from Enterprise (there was one right on the base) and they came over to get him, and he then met the tow truck at the gate and followed him to the dealership. Glow plugs always have been a problem and most auto makers have several different models that can be used in the same engine. Too low a resistance means that the plugs get hot quickly but burn out faster while higher resistance means that they heat slower but last longer. The time we had trouble when we were in Memphis (it was the vacuum system or something - the car just had no power) we did drive it over. That Mercedes place wasn't as good. They took the doors apart and said they couldn't get the parts and finally Bob told them to put it together and give it back. He then went to an Autozone and got the part for about 85 cents, and took the door back apart and fixed it himself in the parking lot of the motel. Vacuum system? Doors? Was the center lock operated by a vacuum system? And where did they get it? most diesels don't have much vacuum, or actually don't have a throttle valve to restrict air flow. Cheers, When the vacuum system on those cars was screwed up, the door locks and trunk lock didn't work - windows - nothing on the car would work. The vacuum system ran a lot of things on the car. On my car, if it sits for very long, I can only open the door with a key and none of the other doors or the trunk unlock like they are supposed to until after the engine is turned on and running. Out of curiosity what kind of car do you have? The original problem was a fuel restriction which kept the engine from developing any power. We dropped the car off and told them that. A very common reason for a diesel to not develop full power. When we called the Mercedes place later, they said that the two left door locks were leaking (which we kind of knew) and they would have to replace them. By the next day they fixed the two window actuators which were leaking vacuum and had tested it and found more leaks and couldn't get the parts in less than 2 days, which would be Friday. Bob was annoyed because he didn't think that the vacuum system was the problem, he thought it was a fuel delivery problem. The next day the advisor called about 10. Bob asked if they had changed the fuel filter, and they had not. So he told them to do that. To be honest I have never worked on a Mercedes car, but does it have a "throttle valve"? The truck engines certainly don't. If a diesel doesn't have a throttle valve, or other restriction in the intake manifold the pressure in the manifold is only slightly below atmospheric unlike a gasoline engine. In fact diesel powered vehicles that use a vacuum booster on the brakes have a vacuum pump, usually on the rear of the alternator, to power the brakes When we got to the dealership, he took it on a test drive, and we decided just to take it as it was - they had changed one fuel filter, but said they didn't have the other one - citing the fact that the car was 20 years old. The car door locks no longer worked, and it was shifting hard, and the engine wouldn't turn off. After we put gas in the rental and turned in it, Bob drove back to the Lodge - the acceleration is fine now. He bought the filter that the advisor said they didn't have at AutoZone for $3.00 I can understand a dealer not having a filter for a 20 year old engine, as the dealer is normally committed to using only factory recommended parts while the "parts dealer" is obviously not restricted to any such agreement. After he ate lunch, and read his repair manual, he went out and looked at the car and figured out that the connector between the car door lock buttons and the actuator that they had fixed was missing. So he connected the two with a wire tie and voila, the engine now shuts off without having to turn it off from under the hood. You seem to be talking abut four separate problems. Engine starting, engine power, door locks and engine stopping. None of which has anything to do with the other, except that the shutdown system might have been actuated by vacuum. The engine starting problem apparently caused by the faulty glow plugs. The engine low power by dirty fuel filters. Vacuum system by something but not the engine.. Note:As I said I have never worked on a Mercedes Diesel car and so googled it. According to what I read the diesel source, since the 1960's, is a mechanical vacuum pump driven from the Injection pump and therefore vacuum, or lack there of, really has no relationship to the engine, except that the engine drives the pump. Engine stopping - diesel engines are shut off by closing a fuel valve. This shutoff may well have been operated by vacuum. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#10
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Dr. Diesel, Foley Engines, and me...
On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:56:46 +0700, Bruce
wrote: On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:54:10 -0400, wrote: The time we had trouble when we were in Memphis (it was the vacuum system or something - the car just had no power) we did drive it over. That Mercedes place wasn't as good. They took the doors apart and said they couldn't get the parts and finally Bob told them to put it together and give it back. He then went to an Autozone and got the part for about 85 cents, and took the door back apart and fixed it himself in the parking lot of the motel. Vacuum system? Doors? Was the center lock operated by a vacuum system? And where did they get it? most diesels don't have much vacuum, or actually don't have a throttle valve to restrict air flow. Cheers, When the vacuum system on those cars was screwed up, the door locks and trunk lock didn't work - windows - nothing on the car would work. The vacuum system ran a lot of things on the car. On my car, if it sits for very long, I can only open the door with a key and none of the other doors or the trunk unlock like they are supposed to until after the engine is turned on and running. Out of curiosity what kind of car do you have? Bob has a 1985 Mercedes 300D I have a 1982 Mercedes 300D At least that is the cars that we are talking about. In addition to a boat with a Perkins 4-156 engine, we also have two mid 60s Ford Escorts with diesel (Mazda) engines which were made that way by Ford, a Mercury Lynx diesel (ditto), a Ford Escort which was a diesel but which Bob converted to electric (not hybrid - all electric), two 1932 Plymouths, a pick up truck (one of the Japanese makes from the 90s), a 1964 Ford station wagon, a 1965 Galaxy convertible, a gas powered Mercury Cougar, and a couple of others. Not completely sure what is left as he's sold one or more Ford pickups, all the 1960s Ford Mustangs and a rowboat and trailer fairly recently. And I gave away a Plymouth Valiant and a 1962 Lincoln Town Car about 10 years ago. The original problem was a fuel restriction which kept the engine from developing any power. We dropped the car off and told them that. A very common reason for a diesel to not develop full power. When we called the Mercedes place later, they said that the two left door locks were leaking (which we kind of knew) and they would have to replace them. By the next day they fixed the two window actuators which were leaking vacuum and had tested it and found more leaks and couldn't get the parts in less than 2 days, which would be Friday. Bob was annoyed because he didn't think that the vacuum system was the problem, he thought it was a fuel delivery problem. The next day the advisor called about 10. Bob asked if they had changed the fuel filter, and they had not. So he told them to do that. To be honest I have never worked on a Mercedes car, but does it have a "throttle valve"? The truck engines certainly don't. If a diesel doesn't have a throttle valve, or other restriction in the intake manifold the pressure in the manifold is only slightly below atmospheric unlike a gasoline engine. In fact diesel powered vehicles that use a vacuum booster on the brakes have a vacuum pump, usually on the rear of the alternator, to power the brakes When we got to the dealership, he took it on a test drive, and we decided just to take it as it was - they had changed one fuel filter, but said they didn't have the other one - citing the fact that the car was 20 years old. The car door locks no longer worked, and it was shifting hard, and the engine wouldn't turn off. After we put gas in the rental and turned in it, Bob drove back to the Lodge - the acceleration is fine now. He bought the filter that the advisor said they didn't have at AutoZone for $3.00 I can understand a dealer not having a filter for a 20 year old engine, as the dealer is normally committed to using only factory recommended parts while the "parts dealer" is obviously not restricted to any such agreement. After he ate lunch, and read his repair manual, he went out and looked at the car and figured out that the connector between the car door lock buttons and the actuator that they had fixed was missing. So he connected the two with a wire tie and voila, the engine now shuts off without having to turn it off from under the hood. You seem to be talking abut four separate problems. Engine starting, engine power, door locks and engine stopping. None of which has anything to do with the other, except that the shutdown system might have been actuated by vacuum. The engine starting problem apparently caused by the faulty glow plugs. The engine low power by dirty fuel filters. Vacuum system by something but not the engine.. Note:As I said I have never worked on a Mercedes Diesel car and so googled it. According to what I read the diesel source, since the 1960's, is a mechanical vacuum pump driven from the Injection pump and therefore vacuum, or lack there of, really has no relationship to the engine, except that the engine drives the pump. Engine stopping - diesel engines are shut off by closing a fuel valve. This shutoff may well have been operated by vacuum. Yes - there were separate problems. We have driven the wheels off of these cars. I once logged over 100 work miles a day for a month, not counting driving to the office or the fact that it was July and so had a holiday in there. And we have taken them south in the winter to tour around where it is warmer. Mostly we just put up with the problems. My car the ventilation system won't work after the engine starts unless I fiddle with the key, the pax window doesn't work, the rear defroster wires have been polished off, it leaks in a hard rain, and the cruise control doesn't work. We had two separate problems with Bob's car that we couldn't overlook and it was in two separate places. Once in Charleston when it was the glow plugs and once in Memphis when it was the fuel filters. We wouldn't have gone to a repair place otherwise. Oh - we did have brake problems in Titusville and the Mercedes place couldn't take us until Friday (this was Sunday), so we rented a car and in the meantime Bob figured out what the problem was and fixed it. So now when we want to go out of the county, we rent a car for that. It's cheaper and less hassle in the long run. |
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