Capt. JG wrote:
I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons. First,
if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the enjoyment of
sailing.


This is a curious point in the rules. Since it says "if operational"
then the requirement to monitor only applies if you have it turned on.
For short trips in clear weather, I generally leave the display stashed
down below. For longer trips, I will mount it, but whether its Off, on
Standby, or Active is determined by circumstance. When I've run this by
CG "rules experts" I've always got the same answer (which is curiously
the same as the answer to other "gray area" questions I've raised):
"Your logic sounds reasonable, but remember, if there is an accident you
will have to convince the court that you did everything in your power to
prevent it."

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
useful in Massachusetts. One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:06:30 -0400, Jeff wrote:

One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe.

Back in the 80s a friend of mine was bringing a new (to him) 40 ft
sailboat back from Canada in the fog. He was T-boned by a tug boat
operated by the Canadian coast guard even though both boats were
operating their radar and were aware of each other's presence. Go
figure.

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:21:55 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:06:30 -0400, Jeff wrote:

One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe.

Back in the 80s a friend of mine was bringing a new (to him) 40 ft
sailboat back from Canada in the fog. He was T-boned by a tug boat
operated by the Canadian coast guard even though both boats were
operating their radar and were aware of each other's presence. Go
figure.

The passenger liner Stockholm T-boned the Andrea Doria and about 60
died. Eventually when the blame dodging was over, the Stockholm's
third mate was said to have misread his radar.

To digress a bit: more people have died diving the wreck than died
during the sinking. One guy has taken out one party a year for more
than thirty years. He has lost 3%. It is heavily draped with fishing
tackle, of course.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:06:30 -0400, Jeff wrote:

One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe.

Back in the 80s a friend of mine was bringing a new (to him) 40 ft
sailboat back from Canada in the fog. He was T-boned by a tug boat
operated by the Canadian coast guard even though both boats were
operating their radar and were aware of each other's presence. Go
figure.

This summer while in Nova Scotia I learned that one of the sailboat got
T-boned last year.

The owner was waiting for his sailboat to be fixed. He still have problem
with his insurance.

He was motoring in heavy fog and his sailboat got T-boned by a Coast Guard
fast recue boat going at low speed.

The lawyers are still debating it. It was said that the sailboat was on
autopilot.

This summer I have learned that it is best to advise the Coast Guard Traffic
of your sail plan.

Usually the ETD, position, speed, course, destination and ETA are given. In
coastal Canadian Waters the traffic is not as heavy as in the United States
and Coast Guard Traffic will acknowledge your plan and will say report when
you get there. At time, when I was late in getting to my destination

they called me and asked for my position.

This summer we sailed in heavy fog all day under radar, plotter, paper
charts and on autopilot.

Being on autopilot gave us more time to monitor the instrument, identify
possible problem and take necessary action on time to avoid problems. The
person monitoring the instrumentations and autopilot was relieve every 30
minutes while a senior person would have a global view of the situation and
advise accordingly.

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:50:37 -0300, "Denis M"
wrote:

Back in the 80s a friend of mine was bringing a new (to him) 40 ft
sailboat back from Canada in the fog. He was T-boned by a tug boat
operated by the Canadian coast guard even though both boats were
operating their radar and were aware of each other's presence. Go
figure.

This summer while in Nova Scotia I learned that one of the sailboat got
T-boned last year.

The owner was waiting for his sailboat to be fixed. He still have problem
with his insurance.

He was motoring in heavy fog and his sailboat got T-boned by a Coast Guard
fast recue boat going at low speed.

There seems to be a pattern here. :-)

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons.
First, if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the
enjoyment of sailing.


This is a curious point in the rules. Since it says "if operational" then
the requirement to monitor only applies if you have it turned on. For
short trips in clear weather, I generally leave the display stashed down
below. For longer trips, I will mount it, but whether its Off, on
Standby, or Active is determined by circumstance. When I've run this by
CG "rules experts" I've always got the same answer (which is curiously the
same as the answer to other "gray area" questions I've raised): "Your
logic sounds reasonable, but remember, if there is an accident you will
have to convince the court that you did everything in your power to
prevent it."

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
useful in Massachusetts. One problem now is that while in the "old days"
(before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the pea soup
were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc, nowadays every
rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots because the radar
and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've had a close call, the
worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth. If you sail in fog,
radar is needed now for defense.


Yup... it's sort of a gotcha, like many things.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sep 28, 7:06*pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. *Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
* If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.

--
Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 28, 7:06 pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.


Do you have an AIS receiver? That's something I've been thinking about
getting. For me, the issue is making sure we get out of the way as
necessary. I don't think transmitting would make much diff in the bay, since
the really big stuff isn't going to be changing course.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:47:22 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 28, 7:06 pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.


Do you have an AIS receiver? That's something I've been thinking about
getting. For me, the issue is making sure we get out of the way as
necessary. I don't think transmitting would make much diff in the bay,
since
the really big stuff isn't going to be changing course.

When sailing in poor visibility, the greatest danger seems to be from
small recreational power boats zipping around in thick fog as if
visibility was 10 miles. The commercial boats do a pretty good job of
announcing their postion heading and speed, as well as sounding the
appropriate signals. I do the same. Listening intently for even the
slightest noises is probably as important as RADAR, although not a
substitute. You need to be alert in every way at your disposal.
Otherwise, you should stay in port. During the week when most of the
center console captains are at their day jobs, things are a lot safer,
although you can never let your guard down. We also wear PFD's and
clip on in low visibility, no matter how calm conditions might be. Too
many stories of people being thrown overboard and killed in
collisions.



I certainly agree that all tools available should be used. I find lots of
people with their head stuck in their gadget (radar, gps, ais, whatever)
rather than actually looking around and listening.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:12:33 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:47:22 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 28, 7:06 pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine,
and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape
Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.


Do you have an AIS receiver? That's something I've been thinking about
getting. For me, the issue is making sure we get out of the way as
necessary. I don't think transmitting would make much diff in the bay,
since
the really big stuff isn't going to be changing course.

When sailing in poor visibility, the greatest danger seems to be from
small recreational power boats zipping around in thick fog as if
visibility was 10 miles. The commercial boats do a pretty good job of
announcing their postion heading and speed, as well as sounding the
appropriate signals. I do the same. Listening intently for even the
slightest noises is probably as important as RADAR, although not a
substitute. You need to be alert in every way at your disposal.
Otherwise, you should stay in port. During the week when most of the
center console captains are at their day jobs, things are a lot safer,
although you can never let your guard down. We also wear PFD's and
clip on in low visibility, no matter how calm conditions might be. Too
many stories of people being thrown overboard and killed in
collisions.



I certainly agree that all tools available should be used. I find lots of
people with their head stuck in their gadget (radar, gps, ais, whatever)
rather than actually looking around and listening.


I don't think you can blame that on the equipment.


I don't and I didn't. I do offer some blame to those marketing the
equipment, since they want people to "rely" on their stuff, when one should
be relying on oneself.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com