I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine. I
got along just fine with it even before GPS. I was confident of my
navigation to get in close where I was unlikely to encounter traffic,
etc., etc.

My plans for last spring's science cruise were to take me up into the
Bay of Fundy where radar was clearly required so I installed a Garmin
set up that has worked great except for one time. In August the radome
wouldn't show up on the network. No idea why and the problem never re-
occured. I was far up in Penobscot Bay when this happened and the
first thought that popped into my head was, "How am I going to get
home?" As soon as I realized what I was thinking, I had a good
chuckle. I hope it gives you a chuckle as well.

The radar has become one of my favorite things on the boat. While I
could always get from A to B reasonably safely without it, my route
was dictated by traffic avoidance . I'm now have much more route
flexibility as well as being safer. And, wow, I never realized how
many boats there are out there in the fog Besides, just working
with it is a lot of fun.

I went from Portland to Roque Island singlehanded seeing nothing
except for a couple hours of scale up around Matinicus. Last trip I
did another completely blind solo non-stop from Eastport to the Cows
Yard. First thing I saw was the cliffs at the Head Harbor Island
entrance. Worth every penny to be able to do that stuff.

BTW the Seaview mast mount for the Garmin 18" radomes is too long. My
jib hangs up frequently; especially downwind. I'm going to make an
adapter this winter to move it back. Look for alternatives if you are
planning a mast installation.

I think Garmin is the only way to go for small radars at this point.
If anyone is interested, I'll explain.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine. I
got along just fine with it even before GPS. I was confident of my
navigation to get in close where I was unlikely to encounter traffic,
etc., etc.

My plans for last spring's science cruise were to take me up into the
Bay of Fundy where radar was clearly required so I installed a Garmin
set up that has worked great except for one time. In August the radome
wouldn't show up on the network. No idea why and the problem never re-
occured. I was far up in Penobscot Bay when this happened and the
first thought that popped into my head was, "How am I going to get
home?" As soon as I realized what I was thinking, I had a good
chuckle. I hope it gives you a chuckle as well.

The radar has become one of my favorite things on the boat. While I
could always get from A to B reasonably safely without it, my route
was dictated by traffic avoidance . I'm now have much more route
flexibility as well as being safer. And, wow, I never realized how
many boats there are out there in the fog Besides, just working
with it is a lot of fun.

I went from Portland to Roque Island singlehanded seeing nothing
except for a couple hours of scale up around Matinicus. Last trip I
did another completely blind solo non-stop from Eastport to the Cows
Yard. First thing I saw was the cliffs at the Head Harbor Island
entrance. Worth every penny to be able to do that stuff.

BTW the Seaview mast mount for the Garmin 18" radomes is too long. My
jib hangs up frequently; especially downwind. I'm going to make an
adapter this winter to move it back. Look for alternatives if you are
planning a mast installation.

I think Garmin is the only way to go for small radars at this point.
If anyone is interested, I'll explain.


Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar... certainly don't need it on the bay. I suppose
if I were going up/down the coast, I'd consider it. But, we have far fewer
spots to stop/go to than on the east coast.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sep 27, 4:57*pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:

Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar...

I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

I looked at the small stand alone radars of size and power draw
appropriate to my boat and learned that Garmin has done a clever thing
(muc has it pains me to say since there is much I hate about Garmin in
general). Their radars do all the signal processing up in the radome
and then turn it into a signal that runs along a standard Cat 5
computer network cable like the one that probably is plugged into the
back of your computer. A clever person could certainly hack software
to make it display on a lap top. Most of their chartplotters accept
this signal. So, for less than $200 more than a stand alone unit, I
could buy a radome and a 3205 chartplotter with charts for the entire
U.S. preloaded. I essentially got a second larger and more
sophisticated chartplotter for free and a color display instead of the
BW of comparably priced stand alone radars. Instrument space is
precious on my small boat so it was also nice not to have yet another
box.

The best thing about the set up is that the radar display can be
overlaid on the chart with the GPS position. This is a huge
improvement in situational awareness. You can figure out almost
instantly whether a blip is a buoy or a vessel as opposed to going
back and forth between a dedicated radar display and a GPS or chart
transferring ranges and bearings. When you are sailing single or
shorthanded, these workload savings reduce fatigue and improve lookout
and attention to other navigational issues.

It's very difficult to run a proper radar plot in close, complex,
waters such as along the coast of Maine. Radars of this size are not
very conducive to plotting directly on the screen although some people
do it. There are enough asterisks scattered around Maine waters that
I'm reluctant to clutter up my screen with marks as well. The chart
overlay is a great plotting substitute. You can see by watching
soundings and other landmarks if a target is just wandering around
randomly and is probably a lobster boat or maintaining a straight
course and make a good estimate of speed. If it is close to
maintaining a constant bearing, it will be pretty obvious. Switching
to full screen radar mode gives your all the standard tools which I
some times use but I have to use them a lot less because I can rule
out most targets as a CPA danger just from the chart display.

There's much more of a learning curve than I expected. I spent the
first week or two thinking "Why did I spend all this money?" I
thought the overlay was pretty useless because it was so hard to find
the little red targets in the clutter. The brain trains. Now, I
little red spot pops up and my brain zeros right in on it from six
feet away at the helm. Working with it a lot in clear weather, I
developed enough trust to do my singlehanded radar running on
autopilot trusting to the advance warning. The straighter course the
autopilot can keep, (at least when I'm standing radar watch) makes the
whole picture clearer. I have the dodger in my hand and it only adds
a couple of boat lengths to the distance in which I can spring to the
controls and do a full stop or 180 turn which is much faster in my
boat. As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

--
Roger

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 27, 4:57 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:

Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar...

I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons. First,
if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the enjoyment of
sailing. Second, I rarely _stay_ in the fog if I'm sailing on the bay. I
might cross through it, but I've only sailed a couple of times when you
couldn't see well enough to even consider needing it, and I've made the
choice of not going in that particular spot. Third, it's a fairly small
area. By the time you sort out what's what, you're just about done in that
area anyway. Fourth, there's lots and lots of traffic that might or might
not show up on radar, e.g., swimmers, kayaks, sailboards, and of course
tankers, fishing boats (commercial or otherwise), towboats, pilot boats, CG,
police, sheriff, and sailboats, not mention "debris" in the water. Radar
would be a distraction.

I looked at the small stand alone radars of size and power draw
appropriate to my boat and learned that Garmin has done a clever thing
(muc has it pains me to say since there is much I hate about Garmin in
general). Their radars do all the signal processing up in the radome
and then turn it into a signal that runs along a standard Cat 5
computer network cable like the one that probably is plugged into the
back of your computer. A clever person could certainly hack software
to make it display on a lap top. Most of their chartplotters accept
this signal. So, for less than $200 more than a stand alone unit, I
could buy a radome and a 3205 chartplotter with charts for the entire
U.S. preloaded. I essentially got a second larger and more
sophisticated chartplotter for free and a color display instead of the
BW of comparably priced stand alone radars. Instrument space is
precious on my small boat so it was also nice not to have yet another
box.

I like Garmin products generally. One issue is where to have the
chartplotter. I don't want something in the companion way, since people tend
to go up and down. There is a spot on the bulkhead forward of the binnacle,
but it would be a fair distance to see things. I don't have a binnacle that
would easily accept something there.

The best thing about the set up is that the radar display can be
overlaid on the chart with the GPS position. This is a huge
improvement in situational awareness. You can figure out almost
instantly whether a blip is a buoy or a vessel as opposed to going
back and forth between a dedicated radar display and a GPS or chart
transferring ranges and bearings. When you are sailing single or
shorthanded, these workload savings reduce fatigue and improve lookout
and attention to other navigational issues.

I'd definitely want an all-in-one solution if I ever got something. If I
decide to take her offshore for any length of time (coastal cruise
offshore), then I might just make the leap.

It's very difficult to run a proper radar plot in close, complex,
waters such as along the coast of Maine. Radars of this size are not
very conducive to plotting directly on the screen although some people
do it. There are enough asterisks scattered around Maine waters that
I'm reluctant to clutter up my screen with marks as well. The chart
overlay is a great plotting substitute. You can see by watching
soundings and other landmarks if a target is just wandering around
randomly and is probably a lobster boat or maintaining a straight
course and make a good estimate of speed. If it is close to
maintaining a constant bearing, it will be pretty obvious. Switching
to full screen radar mode gives your all the standard tools which I
some times use but I have to use them a lot less because I can rule
out most targets as a CPA danger just from the chart display.

There's much more of a learning curve than I expected. I spent the
first week or two thinking "Why did I spend all this money?" I
thought the overlay was pretty useless because it was so hard to find
the little red targets in the clutter. The brain trains. Now, I
little red spot pops up and my brain zeros right in on it from six
feet away at the helm. Working with it a lot in clear weather, I
developed enough trust to do my singlehanded radar running on
autopilot trusting to the advance warning. The straighter course the
autopilot can keep, (at least when I'm standing radar watch) makes the
whole picture clearer. I have the dodger in my hand and it only adds
a couple of boat lengths to the distance in which I can spring to the
controls and do a full stop or 180 turn which is much faster in my
boat. As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

Not quite the same thing, but on a charter boat out of La Paz, Mexico, we
had a chartplotter tied to GPS. It was a pretty simple set up, but it took
some futzing to get it to show what we wanted, and eventually we realized it
was just a distraction.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:
I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons. First,
if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the enjoyment of
sailing.


This is a curious point in the rules. Since it says "if operational"
then the requirement to monitor only applies if you have it turned on.
For short trips in clear weather, I generally leave the display stashed
down below. For longer trips, I will mount it, but whether its Off, on
Standby, or Active is determined by circumstance. When I've run this by
CG "rules experts" I've always got the same answer (which is curiously
the same as the answer to other "gray area" questions I've raised):
"Your logic sounds reasonable, but remember, if there is an accident you
will have to convince the court that you did everything in your power to
prevent it."

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
useful in Massachusetts. One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:06:30 -0400, Jeff wrote:

One problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe.

Back in the 80s a friend of mine was bringing a new (to him) 40 ft
sailboat back from Canada in the fog. He was T-boned by a tug boat
operated by the Canadian coast guard even though both boats were
operating their radar and were aware of each other's presence. Go
figure.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons.
First, if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the
enjoyment of sailing.


This is a curious point in the rules. Since it says "if operational" then
the requirement to monitor only applies if you have it turned on. For
short trips in clear weather, I generally leave the display stashed down
below. For longer trips, I will mount it, but whether its Off, on
Standby, or Active is determined by circumstance. When I've run this by
CG "rules experts" I've always got the same answer (which is curiously the
same as the answer to other "gray area" questions I've raised): "Your
logic sounds reasonable, but remember, if there is an accident you will
have to convince the court that you did everything in your power to
prevent it."

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
useful in Massachusetts. One problem now is that while in the "old days"
(before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the pea soup
were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc, nowadays every
rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots because the radar
and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've had a close call, the
worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth. If you sail in fog,
radar is needed now for defense.


Yup... it's sort of a gotcha, like many things.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sep 28, 7:06*pm, Jeff wrote:

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine, and
usefuOne problem now is that while in the "old
days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in the
pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. *Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape Elizabeth.
* If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

An excellent point and a major factor in my decision to install radar
that I didn't mention. Because of this factor, I was finding the fog
routes I considered acceptably safe much more restricted when I
returned to sailing in the post GPS world.

--
Roger Long

I have long felt that the main goal/direction of the Rules was to address
the interaction between ships and how they are expected to be operated.
Because of this, when you get to applying the rules to recreational
vessels some things can and do become murky due to the differences as to
how the groups can and do operate (Radar use being one ..... SOP nowadays
that shipboard radar be on at all times underway)
Naturally these points can and will be argued until a particular case
goes to court and they decide the outcome.

otn





Jeff wrote in
:

Capt. JG wrote:
I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was
saying I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think,
"Now if I was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons.
First, if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the
enjoyment of sailing.


This is a curious point in the rules. Since it says "if operational"
then the requirement to monitor only applies if you have it turned on.
For short trips in clear weather, I generally leave the display
stashed down below. For longer trips, I will mount it, but whether
its Off, on Standby, or Active is determined by circumstance. When
I've run this by CG "rules experts" I've always got the same answer
(which is curiously the same as the answer to other "gray area"
questions I've raised): "Your logic sounds reasonable, but remember,
if there is an accident you will have to convince the court that you
did everything in your power to prevent it."

I've long been a fan of radar and feel its required to cruise Maine,
and useful in Massachusetts. One problem now is that while in the
"old days" (before low cost radar and loran/gps) the only fools out in
the pea soup were being ultra cautious, tooting horns, going slow etc,
nowadays every rich bozo thinks he can run his sportfish at 30 knots
because the radar and GPS will keep him safe. Almost every year I've
had a close call, the worst case happening a mile off of Cape
Elizabeth.
If you sail in fog, radar is needed now for defense.

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 15:31:00 -0700 (PDT), Roger Long
wrote:

As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

Yes, it's kind of addicting to be able to "see" what's around you at
all times. I cruised and raced for many years without radar, even
once passing under the bridge on Eggemoggin Reach without ever seeing
it in the fog. Then we bought our first serious powerboat 10 years
ago which had a nice Raytheon unit already installed. We quickly
learned to appreciate it at night and in inclement weather. Several
years later I had another breakthrough moment while riding on the
excursion boat from Boothbay Harbor out to Monhegan Island. That boat
had the same type of radar with one additional twist. They could
point at a target on the screen using a trackball, punch a few
buttons, and get back an on-screen data box showing the speed, course
and estimated CPA of the other vessel. Meanwhile the radar display
drew a vector line on the display showing relative direction and speed
of the target. I was immediately hooked and had to have one. Since
we were about to buy a new electronics package for our trawler I made
some inquiries about what was required. Depending on who makes your
radar it is either called an ARPA or MARPA option. It adds a few boat
bucks to the cost but is really useful and has given my wife the
confidence to stand radar watches at night by her self. Priceless!