I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine. I
got along just fine with it even before GPS. I was confident of my
navigation to get in close where I was unlikely to encounter traffic,
etc., etc.

My plans for last spring's science cruise were to take me up into the
Bay of Fundy where radar was clearly required so I installed a Garmin
set up that has worked great except for one time. In August the radome
wouldn't show up on the network. No idea why and the problem never re-
occured. I was far up in Penobscot Bay when this happened and the
first thought that popped into my head was, "How am I going to get
home?" As soon as I realized what I was thinking, I had a good
chuckle. I hope it gives you a chuckle as well.

The radar has become one of my favorite things on the boat. While I
could always get from A to B reasonably safely without it, my route
was dictated by traffic avoidance . I'm now have much more route
flexibility as well as being safer. And, wow, I never realized how
many boats there are out there in the fog Besides, just working
with it is a lot of fun.

I went from Portland to Roque Island singlehanded seeing nothing
except for a couple hours of scale up around Matinicus. Last trip I
did another completely blind solo non-stop from Eastport to the Cows
Yard. First thing I saw was the cliffs at the Head Harbor Island
entrance. Worth every penny to be able to do that stuff.

BTW the Seaview mast mount for the Garmin 18" radomes is too long. My
jib hangs up frequently; especially downwind. I'm going to make an
adapter this winter to move it back. Look for alternatives if you are
planning a mast installation.

I think Garmin is the only way to go for small radars at this point.
If anyone is interested, I'll explain.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine. I
got along just fine with it even before GPS. I was confident of my
navigation to get in close where I was unlikely to encounter traffic,
etc., etc.

My plans for last spring's science cruise were to take me up into the
Bay of Fundy where radar was clearly required so I installed a Garmin
set up that has worked great except for one time. In August the radome
wouldn't show up on the network. No idea why and the problem never re-
occured. I was far up in Penobscot Bay when this happened and the
first thought that popped into my head was, "How am I going to get
home?" As soon as I realized what I was thinking, I had a good
chuckle. I hope it gives you a chuckle as well.

The radar has become one of my favorite things on the boat. While I
could always get from A to B reasonably safely without it, my route
was dictated by traffic avoidance . I'm now have much more route
flexibility as well as being safer. And, wow, I never realized how
many boats there are out there in the fog Besides, just working
with it is a lot of fun.

I went from Portland to Roque Island singlehanded seeing nothing
except for a couple hours of scale up around Matinicus. Last trip I
did another completely blind solo non-stop from Eastport to the Cows
Yard. First thing I saw was the cliffs at the Head Harbor Island
entrance. Worth every penny to be able to do that stuff.

BTW the Seaview mast mount for the Garmin 18" radomes is too long. My
jib hangs up frequently; especially downwind. I'm going to make an
adapter this winter to move it back. Look for alternatives if you are
planning a mast installation.

I think Garmin is the only way to go for small radars at this point.
If anyone is interested, I'll explain.


Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar... certainly don't need it on the bay. I suppose
if I were going up/down the coast, I'd consider it. But, we have far fewer
spots to stop/go to than on the east coast.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sep 27, 4:57*pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:

Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar...

I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

I looked at the small stand alone radars of size and power draw
appropriate to my boat and learned that Garmin has done a clever thing
(muc has it pains me to say since there is much I hate about Garmin in
general). Their radars do all the signal processing up in the radome
and then turn it into a signal that runs along a standard Cat 5
computer network cable like the one that probably is plugged into the
back of your computer. A clever person could certainly hack software
to make it display on a lap top. Most of their chartplotters accept
this signal. So, for less than $200 more than a stand alone unit, I
could buy a radome and a 3205 chartplotter with charts for the entire
U.S. preloaded. I essentially got a second larger and more
sophisticated chartplotter for free and a color display instead of the
BW of comparably priced stand alone radars. Instrument space is
precious on my small boat so it was also nice not to have yet another
box.

The best thing about the set up is that the radar display can be
overlaid on the chart with the GPS position. This is a huge
improvement in situational awareness. You can figure out almost
instantly whether a blip is a buoy or a vessel as opposed to going
back and forth between a dedicated radar display and a GPS or chart
transferring ranges and bearings. When you are sailing single or
shorthanded, these workload savings reduce fatigue and improve lookout
and attention to other navigational issues.

It's very difficult to run a proper radar plot in close, complex,
waters such as along the coast of Maine. Radars of this size are not
very conducive to plotting directly on the screen although some people
do it. There are enough asterisks scattered around Maine waters that
I'm reluctant to clutter up my screen with marks as well. The chart
overlay is a great plotting substitute. You can see by watching
soundings and other landmarks if a target is just wandering around
randomly and is probably a lobster boat or maintaining a straight
course and make a good estimate of speed. If it is close to
maintaining a constant bearing, it will be pretty obvious. Switching
to full screen radar mode gives your all the standard tools which I
some times use but I have to use them a lot less because I can rule
out most targets as a CPA danger just from the chart display.

There's much more of a learning curve than I expected. I spent the
first week or two thinking "Why did I spend all this money?" I
thought the overlay was pretty useless because it was so hard to find
the little red targets in the clutter. The brain trains. Now, I
little red spot pops up and my brain zeros right in on it from six
feet away at the helm. Working with it a lot in clear weather, I
developed enough trust to do my singlehanded radar running on
autopilot trusting to the advance warning. The straighter course the
autopilot can keep, (at least when I'm standing radar watch) makes the
whole picture clearer. I have the dodger in my hand and it only adds
a couple of boat lengths to the distance in which I can spring to the
controls and do a full stop or 180 turn which is much faster in my
boat. As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

--
Roger

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:41:09 -0700 (PDT), Roger Long
wrote:

I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine.

Yes. You thought I was quite foolish to have RADAR on my boat, and
couldn't understand why I thought it was good to have. G

In late June we sailed from Point Judith Pond to Wickford, RI without
being able to see more than 100 feet, and often less. Without RADAR,
we would have been stuck in Point Judith for several days. During the
entire 10 days of that trip, there was heavy fog, or fog/rain much of
the time. It did clear up while we were visiting Wickford and riding
our bikes around.

This is normal conditions for the first couple months of the season in
the Eastern LIS and Naragansett Bay areas. "Fair weather only"
sailors have a much shorter season than we do. We are often heading
out, as everyone else seems to be headed in.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
On Sep 27, 4:57 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:

Sure... explain away!

I'm not a huge fan of radar...

I thought SF Bay was quite foggy. Am I wrong? Back when I was saying
I could do fine without radar in Maine I would also think, "Now if I
was someplace like SF Bay..."

You're right, but it's really not necessary for a couple of reasons. First,
if you have it, you have to monitor, which takes away from the enjoyment of
sailing. Second, I rarely _stay_ in the fog if I'm sailing on the bay. I
might cross through it, but I've only sailed a couple of times when you
couldn't see well enough to even consider needing it, and I've made the
choice of not going in that particular spot. Third, it's a fairly small
area. By the time you sort out what's what, you're just about done in that
area anyway. Fourth, there's lots and lots of traffic that might or might
not show up on radar, e.g., swimmers, kayaks, sailboards, and of course
tankers, fishing boats (commercial or otherwise), towboats, pilot boats, CG,
police, sheriff, and sailboats, not mention "debris" in the water. Radar
would be a distraction.

I looked at the small stand alone radars of size and power draw
appropriate to my boat and learned that Garmin has done a clever thing
(muc has it pains me to say since there is much I hate about Garmin in
general). Their radars do all the signal processing up in the radome
and then turn it into a signal that runs along a standard Cat 5
computer network cable like the one that probably is plugged into the
back of your computer. A clever person could certainly hack software
to make it display on a lap top. Most of their chartplotters accept
this signal. So, for less than $200 more than a stand alone unit, I
could buy a radome and a 3205 chartplotter with charts for the entire
U.S. preloaded. I essentially got a second larger and more
sophisticated chartplotter for free and a color display instead of the
BW of comparably priced stand alone radars. Instrument space is
precious on my small boat so it was also nice not to have yet another
box.

I like Garmin products generally. One issue is where to have the
chartplotter. I don't want something in the companion way, since people tend
to go up and down. There is a spot on the bulkhead forward of the binnacle,
but it would be a fair distance to see things. I don't have a binnacle that
would easily accept something there.

The best thing about the set up is that the radar display can be
overlaid on the chart with the GPS position. This is a huge
improvement in situational awareness. You can figure out almost
instantly whether a blip is a buoy or a vessel as opposed to going
back and forth between a dedicated radar display and a GPS or chart
transferring ranges and bearings. When you are sailing single or
shorthanded, these workload savings reduce fatigue and improve lookout
and attention to other navigational issues.

I'd definitely want an all-in-one solution if I ever got something. If I
decide to take her offshore for any length of time (coastal cruise
offshore), then I might just make the leap.

It's very difficult to run a proper radar plot in close, complex,
waters such as along the coast of Maine. Radars of this size are not
very conducive to plotting directly on the screen although some people
do it. There are enough asterisks scattered around Maine waters that
I'm reluctant to clutter up my screen with marks as well. The chart
overlay is a great plotting substitute. You can see by watching
soundings and other landmarks if a target is just wandering around
randomly and is probably a lobster boat or maintaining a straight
course and make a good estimate of speed. If it is close to
maintaining a constant bearing, it will be pretty obvious. Switching
to full screen radar mode gives your all the standard tools which I
some times use but I have to use them a lot less because I can rule
out most targets as a CPA danger just from the chart display.

There's much more of a learning curve than I expected. I spent the
first week or two thinking "Why did I spend all this money?" I
thought the overlay was pretty useless because it was so hard to find
the little red targets in the clutter. The brain trains. Now, I
little red spot pops up and my brain zeros right in on it from six
feet away at the helm. Working with it a lot in clear weather, I
developed enough trust to do my singlehanded radar running on
autopilot trusting to the advance warning. The straighter course the
autopilot can keep, (at least when I'm standing radar watch) makes the
whole picture clearer. I have the dodger in my hand and it only adds
a couple of boat lengths to the distance in which I can spring to the
controls and do a full stop or 180 turn which is much faster in my
boat. As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

Not quite the same thing, but on a charter boat out of La Paz, Mexico, we
had a chartplotter tied to GPS. It was a pretty simple set up, but it took
some futzing to get it to show what we wanted, and eventually we realized it
was just a distraction.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 15:31:00 -0700 (PDT), Roger Long
wrote:

As I said, I wouldn't sail without it now.

Yes, it's kind of addicting to be able to "see" what's around you at
all times. I cruised and raced for many years without radar, even
once passing under the bridge on Eggemoggin Reach without ever seeing
it in the fog. Then we bought our first serious powerboat 10 years
ago which had a nice Raytheon unit already installed. We quickly
learned to appreciate it at night and in inclement weather. Several
years later I had another breakthrough moment while riding on the
excursion boat from Boothbay Harbor out to Monhegan Island. That boat
had the same type of radar with one additional twist. They could
point at a target on the screen using a trackball, punch a few
buttons, and get back an on-screen data box showing the speed, course
and estimated CPA of the other vessel. Meanwhile the radar display
drew a vector line on the display showing relative direction and speed
of the target. I was immediately hooked and had to have one. Since
we were about to buy a new electronics package for our trawler I made
some inquiries about what was required. Depending on who makes your
radar it is either called an ARPA or MARPA option. It adds a few boat
bucks to the cost but is really useful and has given my wife the
confidence to stand radar watches at night by her self. Priceless!

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:41:09 -0700 (PDT), Roger Long
wrote:

I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine.

Yes. You thought I was quite foolish to have RADAR on my boat, and
couldn't understand why I thought it was good to have. G

In late June we sailed from Point Judith Pond to Wickford, RI without
being able to see more than 100 feet, and often less. Without RADAR,
we would have been stuck in Point Judith for several days. During the
entire 10 days of that trip, there was heavy fog, or fog/rain much of
the time. It did clear up while we were visiting Wickford and riding
our bikes around.

This is normal conditions for the first couple months of the season in
the Eastern LIS and Naragansett Bay areas. "Fair weather only"
sailors have a much shorter season than we do. We are often heading
out, as everyone else seems to be headed in.

Last summer from July to end of August I was cruising the coast of Nova
Scotia.

I was glad to have an all integrated system mounted in the cockpit.

My radar attitude as changed. I found that using the radar side by side with
the plotter and watching the depth was very helpful. Having the direction
of the tide and current showing on your plotter helps.

At time when its high tide you may not see rocks (ex Brazil Rock) on your
radar screen but you will on your plotter and by validating your position
with the depth give you a warmer feeling. I have found it very practical to
plot my routes on the plotter first.

Normally radar works well in all but very bad weather conditions.
Conversely in heavy seas and heavy fog I have experienced sea clutters. The
book shows you how to control sea clutters.

While in reality I was only able to degrease and minimize the clutters.
After checking with commercial fishermen and Coast Guard vessels I learned
that this is true.

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

Other vessels can easily interpret a small blip as part of sea clutters.
While in reality it's a small sailboat with an inadequate radar reflector.

Denis M wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:41:09 -0700 (PDT), Roger Long
wrote:

I think, if you poke around in the archives of this group, you'll find
a post from me about a year ago pontificating about how I couldn't
justify the cost, weight, and power draw of radar cruising in Maine.
Yes. You thought I was quite foolish to have RADAR on my boat, and
couldn't understand why I thought it was good to have. G

In late June we sailed from Point Judith Pond to Wickford, RI without
being able to see more than 100 feet, and often less. Without RADAR,
we would have been stuck in Point Judith for several days. During the
entire 10 days of that trip, there was heavy fog, or fog/rain much of
the time. It did clear up while we were visiting Wickford and riding
our bikes around.

This is normal conditions for the first couple months of the season in
the Eastern LIS and Naragansett Bay areas. "Fair weather only"
sailors have a much shorter season than we do. We are often heading
out, as everyone else seems to be headed in.

Last summer from July to end of August I was cruising the coast of Nova
Scotia.

I was glad to have an all integrated system mounted in the cockpit.

My radar attitude as changed. I found that using the radar side by side with
the plotter and watching the depth was very helpful. Having the direction
of the tide and current showing on your plotter helps.

At time when its high tide you may not see rocks (ex Brazil Rock) on your
radar screen but you will on your plotter and by validating your position
with the depth give you a warmer feeling. I have found it very practical to
plot my routes on the plotter first.

Normally radar works well in all but very bad weather conditions.
Conversely in heavy seas and heavy fog I have experienced sea clutters. The
book shows you how to control sea clutters.

While in reality I was only able to degrease and minimize the clutters.
After checking with commercial fishermen and Coast Guard vessels I learned
that this is true.

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

Other vessels can easily interpret a small blip as part of sea clutters.
While in reality it's a small sailboat with an inadequate radar reflector.





It is a well known fact to eastern Mexico cruisers that the
electronic charts are not to be trusted and MUST be backed up with
radar. These charts were made from 1800s surveys. I understand
Worldcharts are up to date having been made from a recent survey.
As to radar reflectors. Here is a site on making your own. Haven't
been tested, but should work better than any off the shelf cheapos.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/...adar/index.htm
I made mine from 10" al flashing material. Mounted it on the mizzen
spreader.
Gordon

In article ,
"Denis M" wrote:

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

An active one will work wonders.
And (active) AIS is an even better option, provided you are aware that
only vessels over 500 tons are mandatorily fitted with one. This will
even give you the equivalent of MARPA.

HTH

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:39:08 +0200, Marc Heusser
d wrote:

In article ,
"Denis M" wrote:

After this summer cruise I concluded that I needed to replace my radar
reflector.

An active one will work wonders.
And (active) AIS is an even better option, provided you are aware that
only vessels over 500 tons are mandatorily fitted with one. This will
even give you the equivalent of MARPA.

HTH

Marc

Those big boats can (and do) filter out all signals from AIS-B
transponders to reduce clutter on their display. You may see them, but
they still don't see you.