On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:07:00 -0400, wrote:

Most of
Wayne's arguments center around his personal need to isolate himself
from his surroundings.

That is an assumption that does not wash. One of our favorite
cruising activities is to go out in the dinghy, explore the boondocks,
go into town, meet the locals, try their food, see the sights, etc.
For most people, including us, that's what cruising is all about.

*All* of my arguments center around what I consider to be necessary
for reasonable comfort and safety on an extended cruise - one where
supplies are not located on every corner, and a high degree of
reliability and self sufficiency are very desirable. Of course
everyone has different ideas about what that means, and there are
always budget constraints for everyone - that's why I don't have a
fully crewed mega yacht capable of crossing oceans in style. :-)

This all started of course when I expressed the opinion that ouboard
propulsion is not a very good option for long range cruising. No
offense intended toward anyone, I just happen to think it's true for a
number of good reasons and some personal experiences.

Some interesting discussion points were brought out in any case. It
might be interesting to start another thread on what people consider
to be essential or highly desirable on cruising boats, perhaps broken
out by three or more size ranges: Under 30 feet; 30 to 40; 40 and up,
for example. I'd suggest that we should consider what it would take
for your wife to agree to a 3 month cruise on the boat. :-) For you
guys who aren't married, you'll just have to use your imagination.

Some possible discussion items:

- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.

- Water tankage and/or water maker?.

- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.

- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc

- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
blender?, toaster?, freezer?

- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?

- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?

- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
type/size/switching?

- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.

and so on....

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:11:05 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:07:00 -0400, wrote:

Most of
Wayne's arguments center around his personal need to isolate himself
from his surroundings.

That is an assumption that does not wash. One of our favorite
cruising activities is to go out in the dinghy, explore the boondocks,
go into town, meet the locals, try their food, see the sights, etc.
For most people, including us, that's what cruising is all about.

*All* of my arguments center around what I consider to be necessary
for reasonable comfort and safety on an extended cruise - one where
supplies are not located on every corner, and a high degree of
reliability and self sufficiency are very desirable. Of course
everyone has different ideas about what that means, and there are
always budget constraints for everyone - that's why I don't have a
fully crewed mega yacht capable of crossing oceans in style. :-)

This all started of course when I expressed the opinion that ouboard
propulsion is not a very good option for long range cruising. No
offense intended toward anyone, I just happen to think it's true for a
number of good reasons and some personal experiences.

Some interesting discussion points were brought out in any case. It
might be interesting to start another thread on what people consider
to be essential or highly desirable on cruising boats, perhaps broken
out by three or more size ranges: Under 30 feet; 30 to 40; 40 and up,
for example. I'd suggest that we should consider what it would take
for your wife to agree to a 3 month cruise on the boat. :-)

My wife has already set the ground rules for that day, which will
come. She wants an Island Packet 370. She prefers it to the bigger
models.

Until we are BOTH ready to actually stop working, we have no need of
that boat, and she loves our present boat for what we do now.

For you
guys who aren't married, you'll just have to use your imagination.

Some possible discussion items:

- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.


Portabote, oars, sails and 3.5 outboard. Folds up and gets lashed to
the lifelines lke a surfboard. When we get a bigger boat, I'll
probably get the next size up Portaboat from what we have now. I have
had enough RIBs to know I never want another one.

- Water tankage and/or water maker?.


Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?

- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.

- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc

- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
blender?, toaster?, freezer?

- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?

- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?

- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
type/size/switching?

- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.

and so on....



Actually, I look forward to reading whatever this generates. Thanks
for keeping the conversation going, Wayne.

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:11:05 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:07:00 -0400, wrote:

Most of
Wayne's arguments center around his personal need to isolate himself
from his surroundings.

That is an assumption that does not wash. One of our favorite
cruising activities is to go out in the dinghy, explore the boondocks,
go into town, meet the locals, try their food, see the sights, etc.
For most people, including us, that's what cruising is all about.

*All* of my arguments center around what I consider to be necessary
for reasonable comfort and safety on an extended cruise - one where
supplies are not located on every corner, and a high degree of
reliability and self sufficiency are very desirable. Of course
everyone has different ideas about what that means, and there are
always budget constraints for everyone - that's why I don't have a
fully crewed mega yacht capable of crossing oceans in style. :-)

This all started of course when I expressed the opinion that ouboard
propulsion is not a very good option for long range cruising. No
offense intended toward anyone, I just happen to think it's true for a
number of good reasons and some personal experiences.

Some interesting discussion points were brought out in any case. It
might be interesting to start another thread on what people consider
to be essential or highly desirable on cruising boats, perhaps broken
out by three or more size ranges: Under 30 feet; 30 to 40; 40 and up,
for example. I'd suggest that we should consider what it would take
for your wife to agree to a 3 month cruise on the boat. :-) For you
guys who aren't married, you'll just have to use your imagination.

Some possible discussion items:

- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.

- Water tankage and/or water maker?.

- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.

- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc

- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
blender?, toaster?, freezer?

- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?

- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?

- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
type/size/switching?

- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.

and so on....

I suggest a criteria for the type of cruising. Maybe, day sailing up
the coast where one stops every evening and spares and supplies are
available. Travel to foreign or remote areas where you are pretty much
on your own for several weeks at a time.

I find storage as being the most important factor in determining boat
size. If "provisions" consists of a loaf of bread and a bottle of
jelly for tomorrow's breakfast and peanut butter and saltine crackers
for lunch because we will stop at "hole in the wall" where they have
that darling little restaurant for supper, it is one thing. If you
aren't going to see land for three weeks it is quite another.

Boat size, depending on use but for a couple my opinion is 35 ft.
minimum and 40 ft. makes a more pleasant living space.

Fridge - Damned nice if you are cruising in tropical areas. On the
other hand I would be reluctant to depend on it for long trips as a
failure could be life threatening.

Water maker - Allows you to sail a lighter boat but failure could be
life threatening. Probably a good idea for long distance but should be
combined with a sensible fresh water management system. In any event
you want fairly large water tanks to allow a water management system
to function.

Water system - for long distance cruising a manual pump system. If you
can build a automatic pressure system for marina use and a manual pump
for off shore you have the best of two worlds.

Stove - LPG. You can get it anywhere, a couple of 9 Kg. tanks lasts
for months. It is easy to light and it cooks good.
Microwave, etc. For marina use only.

Autopilot/wind vane steering - YES! A must have item. the vane
steering works only under sail and the Autopilot works both under
power and sail. I see more and more people using autopilots but I'd
prefer both as many autopilots use too much power for reliable use in
long sailing passages.

Battery bank - House and start batteries that are separate. Size
depends on use.

Auxiliary power - Diesel inboard! Shaft drive with no sail drive or
Vee or Zee drives.
I suggest a Baja Filter. I don't have one but I normally refuel from
jerry cans and let them settle before transferring to the tanks.

Fuel Polishing - I consider a system to "polish" the fuel probably
unreliable however a system to cycle the fuel through a water catcher
is not a bad idea. I have gotten water from both shore tanks and fuel
barges.

Fuel tankage - A minimum of several days steaming. If you undertake a
circumnavigation it is likely you will, sooner or later, encounter
extended periods with either adverse wind or no wind.

Communication - VHF for inshore and a Amateur Band SSB with a modem to
be able to use SailMail during cruises. More and more Cell Phone is
used to communicate with marina's so a multi band phone with a system
for the areas you are visiting is nice.
EPIRB is probably a must although in much of Asia it is going to be
several days before anyone goes looking for you.

Dinghy - Probably the most useful dinghy is an inflatable however if
cruising in tropical climates it should be Hypalon as other material
fails quickly in tropical sun light. A dinghy cover is also a good
idea. With the usual inflatable a 5 HP engine is useful.

Finally; lets change the subject name if this thread is going to
continue.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:29 -0400, wrote:

Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?

No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
impossible to obtain at any price. Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
without worrying about draining the tank.

You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:05:08 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:47:51 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:29 -0400, wrote:

Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?

No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
impossible to obtain at any price.

You cruise in the Sahara desert? LOL

The key words are *good potable*.

Have you ever been to Mexico or Central America ? Have you ever had
Montezuma's Revenge (dysentery) ? Remember, we are by definition,
talking about being away from supplies for two to four weeks, maybe
more. We find that our usage is between 5 and 10 gallons per day, per
person using normal amounts. Two people over 30 days would use 300
to 600 gallons at that rate, way more than most boats can carry.

Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
without worrying about draining the tank.

You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.

There are other ways to supplement fresh water without adding the
expense and problems of a high maintenence watermaker. I'm not
surprised by the number of cruisers who think they can't live without
a watermaker and hot showers.

You and your wife can cruise without showers if you want but not with
us.

:-)

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:11:05 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Some possible discussion items:

First, let me state that MY WAY is the RIGHT and ONLY WAY...

For me.

YOUR WAY is the RIGHT and ONLY WAY....

For you.

Of course MY WAY and YOUR WAY have to be almost endlessly modified for
an almost endless number of reasons: Money, ability, your/my boat
setup and capacities, etc., etc., etc.

For a bit over 2 years we are a live-aboard, full timer cruiser
couple. The boat is a Pearson Rhodes 41. Not a real roomy 41, she's
long and lean and FAST.

I've lived-aboard and/or extended cruised off and on for a total of
about 8 years.

Having said all that....


- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.

I much prefer a hard dinghy. We have a Sandpiper 8. Power is usually a
small trolling motor or oars. I just got a 2 HP outboard and will use
it for those longer and hurrier trips. Most of the time it's rowed,
except for those places we have to anchor more than about a tenth of a
mile out. When not used it's on davits.

I tried a Porta-Boat and found it much more trouble than it was worth.
I wound up giving it away.

I've had inflatables and my only grip is they really don't row too
well and can be pretty wet in a chop.

We're thinking of getting a WaterTender 9.4. I tried one out and it
has the stability and room of an inflatable, but rows well.

- Water tankage and/or water maker?

70 gallons in 2 tanks. That's what the boat came with and there's
really no way to add more.

PUR 80E 3.4 GPH watermaker. I wouldn't even consider not having one.
Our cruising is extended stays in out of the way places. I would not
have one if we took occasional weeks or months cruises.

- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.

Yes for pressure water, hot water and shower-for-two. We have a manual
pump in the galley but it doesn't work. One can conserve with pressure
water. If you can't bring yourself to do it, buy a "water saver" for
each faucet. It screws on in place of the aerator and has a little
rod. You leave the faucet on and when you move the rod water comes
out.

We also have a pressure raw water system plumbed to separate faucets.

One head with a Jabsco toilet going to a Lectra/San. A lot of folks,
including the Princess of Poop, Peggie Hall, bad mouths the Jabscos,
but it's been used ever day for 2 years and another like it was used
every day for 3 years. Never had a problem nor had to rebuild.

- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc

4 anchors: 45 lb Bruce, 45 lb CQR, 35 lb (I think) Danforth and same
size aluminum Danforth (I think it's 11 lb). The Bruce is the main
one. I swear that thing has a "bottom magnet". We use a dedicated GPS
as an anchor alarm and the Bruce has never dragged. Note too that the
aluminum Danforth sets faster and holds better than the "iron" one. I
don't know why and I suppose it doesn't make sense, but that's the way
it is.

Main anchor rode is 130 ft of chain plus 250 ft. 3/4" line. Secondary
is 40 ft. chain plus 250 ft of 3/4" line.

Simpson Laurence 2-speed manual windless. The gypsy will take any size
chain. In fact the main rode is 30 ft. of 5/16 chain coupled to 100 ft
of 3/8 chain. I think that's the sizes.

- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
blender?, toaster?, freezer?

4 burner w/ oven gimbled propane stove, Norcold 110/12 Volt icebox
conversion in re-insulated built in icebox. I would NOT recommend the
Norcold. It doesn't come close to the Adler/Barber I had before.

1,000 Watt compact mirowave, toaster, 110V Haier 1.3 cu. ft. freezer
with decicated inverter.

- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?

Spot, Ham/SSB radio with modem.


- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?

Perkins 4-107 inboard diesel. 40 gallon tank, again that's what the
boat came with and no place to add tankage. We usually carry 20
gallons in jerry cans on deck (I HATE that!). Range is 300 nautical
miles at 6.3 kts to 480 nautical miles at 5 kts, including the jerry
cans.

Standard Racor and inline filters. No polishing system. Oil change is
locking ball valve on oil pan with hose to drop in gallon jug.


To address the ongoing war about diesel inboard vs. outboard: I think
either are fine. An outboard will burn more fuel, but is a lot cheaper
to buy and/or replace. It would take a lot of running to make up the
difference. Some, maybe most, boats would have the problem of the prop
coming out of the water in rough conditions. A longer shaft should
take care of most of this. An old outboard dealer told me one can just
order shaft and foot extensions and put as many together as needed, so
a 4 or 5 or 6 or even 10 foot shaft is not unreasonable.

I had a Morgan 27 with an Atomic 4 inboard. The clutch developed a
problem. I had a 15 HP outboard so fabricated a mount for it. To my
surprise the outboard reached hull speed at about half throttle and
burned the same amount of fuel per hours as the Atomic 4. I eventually
repaired the clutch, but kept the outboard handy in case. I had
decided to sell the boat, but before that decision I thought seriously
about removing the Atomic 4 and going with the outboard.

I would consider a 4-cycle outboard if the Perkins died, but we have
too much overhang, plus the dinghy/davits would have to go. Here goes
another discussion maybe... If the Perkins dies, I plan on replacing
it with a DC electric motor and diesel generator. The motor would
probably mostly be run from the house bank for short periods and
calmer conditions.


- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
type/size/switching?

House bank: 4 golf cart batteris plus 1 deep cycle marine (this was my
trolling motor battery I replaced with a smaller one). 500 Amp Hour
total. I'd like to add 2 more golf cart batteries, but the problem is
room. Engine bank is 2 group 24 marine starting in parallel, with a 10
W solar trickle panel.

Recharging: 600 Watts of solar panels with a Blue Sky MPPT controller;
Air Marine 450 Watt wind generator; 100 Amp Baldor alternator on
engine; Freedom 10 50 Amp charger/ 1,000 Watt inverter.

Inverters: Vector 2,500 Watt, 750 Watt, 450 Watt. The 450 is used for
the flat screen TV and DVD recorder. The 750 is dedicated to the
freezer. The 2,500 is used for the microwave and coffee pot. Note that
the coffee pot takes 70 Amps from the battery, but only takes 5
minutes for a total of 6 Amp Hours.

Generator: 3.5 KW gasoline on cabin top. Yeah, I know. I hate the
thing and always refused to have one. But I bought it last summer so
we could run the marine A/C for my wife. And me too, I have to admit.
It was HOT and this summer seems to be the same. At least it's pretty
quiet. Halfway thinking about getting a Next Gen diesel...


- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

Raymarine S1 Wheel Pilot with an old Simrad wheel pilot for a spare.
Wouldn't be without one! I do like the idea of a wind vane, but I'd
prefer to have my dinghy on davits.


- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.

2 Garmin GPS color plotter/sounders, 1 old B&W Garmin chartplotter for
anchor drag alarm, wired to LOUD piezo buzzer, Garmin handheld GPS,
Garmin StreetPilot GPS (which works with nautical charts), Navetec GPS
sleeve for one of the Compaq IPaq pocket computers, Delorme serial
output GPS.

4 laptop computers, 3 Compaq/HP pocket computers, all with Nav
software.

DSC VHF down below, VHF at steering station, handheld VHF.

SPOT Satellite Messenger.

19" flat HD TV, antenna on mizzen, DVD recorder with digital conveter,
auto type AM/FM radio with 5 CD changer.

Would like to have AIS, at least receive only, but too durn
expen$ive!!


and so on....

OGM LED Tricolor/Anchor light and mostly LED interior lights.


No one should criticize another for his/her choices. We're all
different. I've cruised aboard different sized and equipped sailboats
over the last 47 years, and a few powerboats. My first was a 16 ft
Petral with a gasoline camp stove and D-cell running, anchor and
interior lights. The engine was an old 5 HP outboard. I was 16 at the
time and it was a most pleasurable few months. Could I do it now at
age 63? Certainly! Would I? No, I don't think so.

Rick

I'm curious about the S1. Raymarine says it is rated to 16,500 lbs but
I would guess the Rhodes 41 loaded

probably exceeds that by a bit. So how much time/miles do you have on
it and how is the performance in the slop?
Thanks
G


- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

Raymarine S1 Wheel Pilot with an old Simrad wheel pilot for a spare.
Wouldn't be without one! I do like the idea of a wind vane, but I'd
prefer to have my dinghy on davits.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:36:06 -0700, Gordon wrote:

I'm curious about the S1. Raymarine says it is rated to 16,500 lbs but
I would guess the Rhodes 41 loaded

probably exceeds that by a bit. So how much time/miles do you have on
it and how is the performance in the slop?
Thanks
G

By quite a bit, displacement is 24,000 lbs. I really don't understand
that displacement rating. I always go with if a human can steer it, an
autopilot can. I had a 4000+ on a Coranado 35 and it steered over
12,000 nautical miles with no problems, including 15 ft folowing seas.
A friend put one on his 40,000 lb trawler and it worked fine.

Only a couple thousand miles on the Rhodes, but it's done fine on all
points of sail and under power. Twice the S1 turned off with a
"locked" error. Both times under power while pushing through mud.
Under those conditions it's all I can do to budge the wheel with both
hands.

Rick

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:02:30 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

For a bit over 2 years we are a live-aboard, full timer cruiser
couple. The boat is a Pearson Rhodes 41. Not a real roomy 41, she's
long and lean and FAST.

Classic good old boat ! Looks like you've got it nicely equipped
also.

I just realized today that you are also a member of the "Liveaboard
List". I've been on there a long time but mostly lurk. We have met
some of the other denizens at various times however including the
famous "Norm and Jan" duo from Bandersnatch.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:05:08 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:47:51 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:29 -0400, wrote:

Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?

No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
impossible to obtain at any price.

You cruise in the Sahara desert? LOL

Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
without worrying about draining the tank.

You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.

There are other ways to supplement fresh water without adding the
expense and problems of a high maintenence watermaker. I'm not
surprised by the number of cruisers who think they can't live without
a watermaker and hot showers.

For fully half the year in the monsoon areas there is little or no
rain. You replenish water supplies by either going ashore and toting
it back to the boat or a watermaker :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)