On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:07:00 -0400, wrote:

Most of
Wayne's arguments center around his personal need to isolate himself
from his surroundings.

That is an assumption that does not wash. One of our favorite
cruising activities is to go out in the dinghy, explore the boondocks,
go into town, meet the locals, try their food, see the sights, etc.
For most people, including us, that's what cruising is all about.

*All* of my arguments center around what I consider to be necessary
for reasonable comfort and safety on an extended cruise - one where
supplies are not located on every corner, and a high degree of
reliability and self sufficiency are very desirable. Of course
everyone has different ideas about what that means, and there are
always budget constraints for everyone - that's why I don't have a
fully crewed mega yacht capable of crossing oceans in style. :-)

This all started of course when I expressed the opinion that ouboard
propulsion is not a very good option for long range cruising. No
offense intended toward anyone, I just happen to think it's true for a
number of good reasons and some personal experiences.

Some interesting discussion points were brought out in any case. It
might be interesting to start another thread on what people consider
to be essential or highly desirable on cruising boats, perhaps broken
out by three or more size ranges: Under 30 feet; 30 to 40; 40 and up,
for example. I'd suggest that we should consider what it would take
for your wife to agree to a 3 month cruise on the boat. :-) For you
guys who aren't married, you'll just have to use your imagination.

Some possible discussion items:

- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.

- Water tankage and/or water maker?.

- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.

- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc

- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
blender?, toaster?, freezer?

- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?

- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?

- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
type/size/switching?

- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.

and so on....

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:11:05 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:07:00 -0400, wrote:

Most of
Wayne's arguments center around his personal need to isolate himself
from his surroundings.

That is an assumption that does not wash. One of our favorite
cruising activities is to go out in the dinghy, explore the boondocks,
go into town, meet the locals, try their food, see the sights, etc.
For most people, including us, that's what cruising is all about.

*All* of my arguments center around what I consider to be necessary
for reasonable comfort and safety on an extended cruise - one where
supplies are not located on every corner, and a high degree of
reliability and self sufficiency are very desirable. Of course
everyone has different ideas about what that means, and there are
always budget constraints for everyone - that's why I don't have a
fully crewed mega yacht capable of crossing oceans in style. :-)

This all started of course when I expressed the opinion that ouboard
propulsion is not a very good option for long range cruising. No
offense intended toward anyone, I just happen to think it's true for a
number of good reasons and some personal experiences.

Some interesting discussion points were brought out in any case. It
might be interesting to start another thread on what people consider
to be essential or highly desirable on cruising boats, perhaps broken
out by three or more size ranges: Under 30 feet; 30 to 40; 40 and up,
for example. I'd suggest that we should consider what it would take
for your wife to agree to a 3 month cruise on the boat. :-)

My wife has already set the ground rules for that day, which will
come. She wants an Island Packet 370. She prefers it to the bigger
models.

Until we are BOTH ready to actually stop working, we have no need of
that boat, and she loves our present boat for what we do now.

For you
guys who aren't married, you'll just have to use your imagination.

Some possible discussion items:

- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.


Portabote, oars, sails and 3.5 outboard. Folds up and gets lashed to
the lifelines lke a surfboard. When we get a bigger boat, I'll
probably get the next size up Portaboat from what we have now. I have
had enough RIBs to know I never want another one.

- Water tankage and/or water maker?.


Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?

- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.

- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc

- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
blender?, toaster?, freezer?

- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?

- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?

- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
type/size/switching?

- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.

and so on....



Actually, I look forward to reading whatever this generates. Thanks
for keeping the conversation going, Wayne.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:29 -0400, wrote:

Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?

No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
impossible to obtain at any price. Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
without worrying about draining the tank.

You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:05:08 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:47:51 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:29 -0400, wrote:

Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?

No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
impossible to obtain at any price.

You cruise in the Sahara desert? LOL

The key words are *good potable*.

Have you ever been to Mexico or Central America ? Have you ever had
Montezuma's Revenge (dysentery) ? Remember, we are by definition,
talking about being away from supplies for two to four weeks, maybe
more. We find that our usage is between 5 and 10 gallons per day, per
person using normal amounts. Two people over 30 days would use 300
to 600 gallons at that rate, way more than most boats can carry.

Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
without worrying about draining the tank.

You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.

There are other ways to supplement fresh water without adding the
expense and problems of a high maintenence watermaker. I'm not
surprised by the number of cruisers who think they can't live without
a watermaker and hot showers.

You and your wife can cruise without showers if you want but not with
us.

:-)

Wayne.B wrote:

You and your wife can cruise without showers if you want but not with
us.

:-)



How much water does it take to shower you, Wayne?

We are doing ot on 1.5 Gallons for the both of us
and having fun doing it (!).

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:56:49 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:

You and your wife can cruise without showers if you want but not with
us.

:-)



How much water does it take to shower you, Wayne?


Don't know but more than it used to.

We are doing ot on 1.5 Gallons for the both of us
and having fun doing it (!).

Yes, I can remember the old sun shower on a halyard days. I thought
they held more like 2 gallons though. We used to cheat and heat ours
up with water from the tea kettle, faster that way. Those days are
over, now it's a 20 gallon electric heater. You need that with a
washer/dryer on board and 2 heads. :-)

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:05:08 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:47:51 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:29 -0400, wrote:

Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?

No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
impossible to obtain at any price.

You cruise in the Sahara desert? LOL

Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
without worrying about draining the tank.

You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.

There are other ways to supplement fresh water without adding the
expense and problems of a high maintenence watermaker. I'm not
surprised by the number of cruisers who think they can't live without
a watermaker and hot showers.

For fully half the year in the monsoon areas there is little or no
rain. You replenish water supplies by either going ashore and toting
it back to the boat or a watermaker :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 07:45:39 +0700, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:05:08 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:47:51 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:29 -0400, wrote:

Watermaker? Your list is already getting funny. Do you also grow all
your own food?

No, but there are many places in the world where good potable water is
impossible to obtain at any price.

You cruise in the Sahara desert? LOL

Most marinas in the Bahamas, a
very real cruising destination for us North American types, are
already charging 50 cents a gallon for dock water, and the price keeps
going up. For people making long passages, water capacity is always
an issue, and it's really nice to get one or two good showers a day
without worrying about draining the tank.

You'd probably be surprised at the number of long range cruisers who
are already equipped with water makers for exactly these reasons.

There are other ways to supplement fresh water without adding the
expense and problems of a high maintenence watermaker. I'm not
surprised by the number of cruisers who think they can't live without
a watermaker and hot showers.

For fully half the year in the monsoon areas there is little or no
rain. You replenish water supplies by either going ashore and toting
it back to the boat or a watermaker :-)


A cruiser with half a brain would take the hint and go elsewhere. I
realize you don't have that option and must do without water for 6
months at a time. Surely you don't walk down the dock and go ASHORE to
get water! What watermaker do you have on board? How often does it
require maintenance? How much water does it provide daily? What powers
it?

Oh... you don't need rain to collect water. Probably not enough to
take long showers, but enough to support life.

On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 06:34:15 -0400, wrote:

What watermaker do you have on board? How often does it
require maintenance? How much water does it provide daily? What powers
it?


I know you didn't ask me the question, but I think it's one that needs
answering.

I've had a PUR 40E 1.5 GPH in the past and now have a PUR 80E 3.4 GPH.
The 40E ran about 4 to 5 hours every day for most of 2-1/2 years. The
current 80E has just been run for several week-long periods. It takes
about 1-1/2 hours to 2-1/2 hours of daily running, the latter on
"wsshing and shower days". Note that half to one gallon is used to
flush after running.

There's a "silty water" setup, not the mega-buck "kit", which is just
an extra filter housing. We've made water in clean and dirty, and very
dirty water. Filter elements are not a big expense, they are simply
washed out when necessary and will last over a year.

Maintenance: Very little. Put some silicone grease on the pump shaft
when it starts squeaking, clean the pre-filters as above when needed -
month or more in clean water, weekly in silty water. Make half to one
gallon in a jug, as above, and run it though to flush when shutting
down. Run it every day, or at least every three days max, otherwise
pickle it. Pickling is easy, dump 2 caps of biocide into 2 qts of
water and run it through, then forget about it until you use it again.
To start up after pickling, run it for 20 minutes, test, and fill the
tanks.

We use one tank one day, the other the next. The day before tank is
topped off. This way if something happens to the watermaker, we've
still got one full tank of good water.

Power is 12V. Call it 16 Amp Hours per daily run, or about 2.4 Amp
Hours per gallon of water, put back by the solar.

The only downside to a watermaker is they're very overpriced.

Rick

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:11:05 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 09:07:00 -0400, wrote:

Most of
Wayne's arguments center around his personal need to isolate himself
from his surroundings.

That is an assumption that does not wash. One of our favorite
cruising activities is to go out in the dinghy, explore the boondocks,
go into town, meet the locals, try their food, see the sights, etc.
For most people, including us, that's what cruising is all about.

*All* of my arguments center around what I consider to be necessary
for reasonable comfort and safety on an extended cruise - one where
supplies are not located on every corner, and a high degree of
reliability and self sufficiency are very desirable. Of course
everyone has different ideas about what that means, and there are
always budget constraints for everyone - that's why I don't have a
fully crewed mega yacht capable of crossing oceans in style. :-)

This all started of course when I expressed the opinion that ouboard
propulsion is not a very good option for long range cruising. No
offense intended toward anyone, I just happen to think it's true for a
number of good reasons and some personal experiences.

Some interesting discussion points were brought out in any case. It
might be interesting to start another thread on what people consider
to be essential or highly desirable on cruising boats, perhaps broken
out by three or more size ranges: Under 30 feet; 30 to 40; 40 and up,
for example. I'd suggest that we should consider what it would take
for your wife to agree to a 3 month cruise on the boat. :-) For you
guys who aren't married, you'll just have to use your imagination.

Some possible discussion items:

- Type of dinghy, dinghy power, dinghy storage.

- Water tankage and/or water maker?.

- Pressure water?, hot water?, shower?, number and type of heads.

- Number and type of anchors, length/type of rode, windlass?, etc

- Galley equipment, stove type, refrigeration type, microwave?,
blender?, toaster?, freezer?

- Safety equipment, liferaft?, EPIRB?, SSB radio?, Sat Phone?

- Aux power, none?, outboard?, inboard gas?, inboard diesel?,
tankage/range?, fuel filtration and polishing?, oil change system?

- Electrical system, none?, basic 12 volt?, house bank/size?,
recharging capability?, inverter/type/size/switching?, generator
type/size/switching?

- Self steering?, autopilot?, wind vane?

- Electronics, GPS plotter/features, radar/features, depth sounder,
AIS?, DSC VHF?, handhelds?, entertainment systems?, etc.

and so on....

I suggest a criteria for the type of cruising. Maybe, day sailing up
the coast where one stops every evening and spares and supplies are
available. Travel to foreign or remote areas where you are pretty much
on your own for several weeks at a time.

I find storage as being the most important factor in determining boat
size. If "provisions" consists of a loaf of bread and a bottle of
jelly for tomorrow's breakfast and peanut butter and saltine crackers
for lunch because we will stop at "hole in the wall" where they have
that darling little restaurant for supper, it is one thing. If you
aren't going to see land for three weeks it is quite another.

Boat size, depending on use but for a couple my opinion is 35 ft.
minimum and 40 ft. makes a more pleasant living space.

Fridge - Damned nice if you are cruising in tropical areas. On the
other hand I would be reluctant to depend on it for long trips as a
failure could be life threatening.

Water maker - Allows you to sail a lighter boat but failure could be
life threatening. Probably a good idea for long distance but should be
combined with a sensible fresh water management system. In any event
you want fairly large water tanks to allow a water management system
to function.

Water system - for long distance cruising a manual pump system. If you
can build a automatic pressure system for marina use and a manual pump
for off shore you have the best of two worlds.

Stove - LPG. You can get it anywhere, a couple of 9 Kg. tanks lasts
for months. It is easy to light and it cooks good.
Microwave, etc. For marina use only.

Autopilot/wind vane steering - YES! A must have item. the vane
steering works only under sail and the Autopilot works both under
power and sail. I see more and more people using autopilots but I'd
prefer both as many autopilots use too much power for reliable use in
long sailing passages.

Battery bank - House and start batteries that are separate. Size
depends on use.

Auxiliary power - Diesel inboard! Shaft drive with no sail drive or
Vee or Zee drives.
I suggest a Baja Filter. I don't have one but I normally refuel from
jerry cans and let them settle before transferring to the tanks.

Fuel Polishing - I consider a system to "polish" the fuel probably
unreliable however a system to cycle the fuel through a water catcher
is not a bad idea. I have gotten water from both shore tanks and fuel
barges.

Fuel tankage - A minimum of several days steaming. If you undertake a
circumnavigation it is likely you will, sooner or later, encounter
extended periods with either adverse wind or no wind.

Communication - VHF for inshore and a Amateur Band SSB with a modem to
be able to use SailMail during cruises. More and more Cell Phone is
used to communicate with marina's so a multi band phone with a system
for the areas you are visiting is nice.
EPIRB is probably a must although in much of Asia it is going to be
several days before anyone goes looking for you.

Dinghy - Probably the most useful dinghy is an inflatable however if
cruising in tropical climates it should be Hypalon as other material
fails quickly in tropical sun light. A dinghy cover is also a good
idea. With the usual inflatable a 5 HP engine is useful.

Finally; lets change the subject name if this thread is going to
continue.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)