Ronald Raygun wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Armond Perretta wrote (on 25 April 2009):
I have been using Pettit Trinidad on my 28 foot sloop for many years
(1981 boat purchased new). When we haul, the boat is
pressure-washed, and then in the Spring the loose stuff is scraped
off and the entire bottom wet-sanded with 80 wet-dry. I use a foam
roller and about 3 quarts per coat on this full keel boat with a 22
foot waterline. At this rate every 3 years I've had enough paint on
hand to avoid buying a new gallon.
...
This year I have decided to honor the titans of Wall Street and what
remains of the financial system by "going cheap." I took a new
gallon of Trinidad, split it in half into a new empty gallon can,
added what appeared to be about one half quart of last year's paint,
and then thinned each can to bring the volume to about three quarts
in each one gallon can. This means the paint was thinned about 25 to
27 percent, which is well in excess of the manufacturer
recommendations. In fact just about any source I can find would
disagree with my approach and advise that I will end up with less
than adequate protection. The only advantage to me is, of course,
cutting my paint cost by half.
I suppose I will find out in the Fall if this plan is practical, but I
thought I'd throw it out there to see if anyone else does it this way
or has similar experience.
Last April I posted the above looking for comments and similar
experiences.
We hauled the boat yesterday and were able to determine how the highly
thinned bottom paint performed. The short answer is: "Very well."

I would have to say that this thinning method works for me, as I am now
going to get 2 paint jobs from one gallon on this 28 foot full keel
sailboat.

Stupid, stupid, stupid!

A bit harsh, though I must say his numbers don't quite seem to add up
or, as you would say on your side of the Pond, his "math" is suspect.

He needs 3 quarts per coat, and his old system therefore used 12 quarts
(3 gallons) of full strength goop every 4 years. His new system still
involves using 3 quarts per coat, but of goop thinned to 75% strength.
In other words he will now need 2.25 quarts of full strength goop per
coat, which isn't quite down to the 2 coats per gallon (which would be
2.00 quarts per coat) he claims, unless he's going to dilute it down to
67% strength (which he may well get away with, but I guess that's next
year's experiment).

3 gallons used to give him 4 years, and if he dilutes to 67%, then 2
gallons will give him 4 years. That's not "Half Price", it's 1/3 off.
And then only if the thinner costs nothing.

What you are doing is spending more on haul outs
than you save on paint. Your system requires an annual haul out and we all
know those aren't cheap. They call this being penny wise and pound foolish
across the other side of the Pond.

But he may well be hauling out annually anyway, for other reasons, even
in those years when no painting would be needed.

Well for what its worth, 5 litres of Jotun Seaguardian will do over 4
coats on a full keel 26 footer. That's two coats per year rolled on, +
extra coats near the waterline and on the rudder. Seaguardian is
supposed to be good for 30 months, but we haul annually anyway and might
as well freshen up the antifouling while we are out. The part tin will
keep a year if properly resealed with some butane gas in there to
displace the air and prevent it oxidizing. There is some thinners to
add to the bill but that's used at well under the 10% max ratio
recommended. Works pretty good as well, with no weed or barnacles
unless it's got rubbed off somewhere. Any spot that has got rubbed or
has to be taken back to the gelcoat for any reason gets underwater
primer followed by black hard scrubbable 'waterline' antifouling as a
'witness' coat and to prevent serious fouling if it happens again.
The same tiny can of scrubbable has been on the go for the last two
years and there is plenty left.

For all you mathematically challenged Leftpondians 1 litre is just under
a US quart.

This year I set aside half the big can as soon as I opened it as I had a
clean 2.5 litre tin handy. If you are keeping it, you want it well
mixed, as fresh as possible and to set it aside *before* mixing in old
paint.

I read it as every third year he avoided buying a new can so that's 2 US
gallons for 3 years and he's reduced to 1 for 2 years by diluting it.
How he got 3 quarts left after two years and reckons to save half by
thinning, I do not know, but unless he's measured what's left in the can
accurately I wouldn't believe his 3 quarts per coat.

Unless he's getting more paint on himself and the hard standing he's
slapping it on far thicker than we do as we are doing two coats. I
reckon I'd have had plenty from my half can to do a 28 footer at an even
two coats all over with a bit spare for the waterline and where the prop
wash hits the rudder.

The biggest saving would be buy a radiator roller handle and the *GOOD*
(i.e. EXPENSIVE) rollers to go on it. A fully loaded large roller is to
heavy and awkward and cheap rollers break up too much and waste paint.
The extra length of the radiator roller handle makes the job go much
quicker with less stooping.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:

"IanM" wrote in message
...
Well for what its worth, 5 litres of Jotun Seaguardian will do over 4
coats on a full keel 26 footer. That's two coats per year rolled on, +
extra coats near the waterline and on the rudder. Seaguardian is supposed
to be good for 30 months, but we haul annually anyway and might as well
freshen up the antifouling while we are out. The part tin will keep a year
if properly resealed with some butane gas in there to displace the air and
prevent it oxidizing. There is some thinners to add to the bill but
that's used at well under the 10% max ratio recommended. Works pretty
good as well, with no weed or barnacles unless it's got rubbed off
somewhere. Any spot that has got rubbed or has to be taken back to the
gelcoat for any reason gets underwater primer followed by black hard
scrubbable 'waterline' antifouling as a 'witness' coat and to prevent
serious fouling if it happens again. The same tiny can of scrubbable has
been on the go for the last two years and there is plenty left.

For all you mathematically challenged Leftpondians 1 litre is just under a
US quart.

This year I set aside half the big can as soon as I opened it as I had a
clean 2.5 litre tin handy. If you are keeping it, you want it well mixed,
as fresh as possible and to set it aside *before* mixing in old paint.

I read it as every third year he avoided buying a new can so that's 2 US
gallons for 3 years and he's reduced to 1 for 2 years by diluting it. How
he got 3 quarts left after two years and reckons to save half by
thinning, I do not know, but unless he's measured what's left in the can
accurately I wouldn't believe his 3 quarts per coat.

Unless he's getting more paint on himself and the hard standing he's
slapping it on far thicker than we do as we are doing two coats. I reckon
I'd have had plenty from my half can to do a 28 footer at an even two
coats all over with a bit spare for the waterline and where the prop wash
hits the rudder.

The biggest saving would be buy a radiator roller handle and the *GOOD*
(i.e. EXPENSIVE) rollers to go on it. A fully loaded large roller is to
heavy and awkward and cheap rollers break up too much and waste paint. The
extra length of the radiator roller handle makes the job go much quicker
with less stooping.

This makes more sense to me than those post who talk in terms of years
without haulout and paint so they put the stuff on much thicker.
Here in Norway I have to haul out every year because although Oslo fjord has
never frozen right over-at least since I have lived here-the channels
between the inner islands do freeze in a bad winter and the small creeks
where my marina is freeze every year and I do not want to see my boat iced
in with a couple of feet or more snow along the pontoons and no electricity
or water available at the berths.
So I haul every year and give my boat one coat of Hempel antifouling which I
apply with a brush and she always comes out clean except for the propeller
and shaft.
I have not found a rally good solution for these last because the speed of
rotation soon takes off the ablative coating of a standard antifouling.
However, I have found some antifouling Volvo sell (very expensive) in a
spray can for their outdrives which works pretty well because (I think) the
fouling cannot adhere to it and as soon as you run the motor it mostly
shears off.
I always use a brush. I do not go with rollers because they may be OK for
the wide open spaces but you will have to use a brush at some point for the
awkward corners. I never clean my brushes. Just squeeze off the surplus and
leave the bristles nice and straight and let them harden like that . Next
year soak them in gasoline overnight and they come soft again as antifouling
just washes off in gasoline.
I have a 38' fin keel boat with a spade rudder and the whole job takes just
four 750ml tins each year.

Edgar wrote:
This makes more sense to me than those post who talk in terms of years
without haulout and paint so they put the stuff on much thicker.
Here in Norway I have to haul out every year because although Oslo fjord has
never frozen right over-at least since I have lived here-the channels
between the inner islands do freeze in a bad winter and the small creeks
where my marina is freeze every year and I do not want to see my boat iced
in with a couple of feet or more snow along the pontoons and no electricity
or water available at the berths.
So I haul every year and give my boat one coat of Hempel antifouling which I
apply with a brush and she always comes out clean except for the propeller
and shaft.
I have not found a rally good solution for these last because the speed of
rotation soon takes off the ablative coating of a standard antifouling.
However, I have found some antifouling Volvo sell (very expensive) in a
spray can for their outdrives which works pretty well because (I think) the
fouling cannot adhere to it and as soon as you run the motor it mostly
shears off.
I always use a brush. I do not go with rollers because they may be OK for
the wide open spaces but you will have to use a brush at some point for the
awkward corners. I never clean my brushes. Just squeeze off the surplus and
leave the bristles nice and straight and let them harden like that . Next
year soak them in gasoline overnight and they come soft again as antifouling
just washes off in gasoline.
I have a 38' fin keel boat with a spade rudder and the whole job takes just
four 750ml tins each year.

Good point about the gasoline/petrol. Its a lot cheaper than thinners
for equipment cleanup - even at UK rates of duty on road fuel - and does
a good job on roller handles and brushes. I usually do the cleanup in
the old roller tray and that gets clean enough to re-use as well.

You would be surprised how much of an average hull you can sensibly do
with a roller, and cutting in round skin fittings, anodes etc. is easier
with a 1" brush than a big one. Why not wash out your brushes BEFORE
they set rock solid though?

I've been using a red lanolin based grease called 'Propshield' on the
propeller and it's better than nothing as it keeps the fouling from
sticking hard so it comes off with a pan scourer. The propeller
manufacturer recommended NOT to use paint as they reckoned it increased
the risk of electrolytic pitting.




--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:

"IanM" wrote in message
...

Good point about the gasoline/petrol. Its a lot cheaper than thinners for
equipment cleanup - even at UK rates of duty on road fuel - and does a
good job on roller handles and brushes. I usually do the cleanup in the
old roller tray and that gets clean enough to re-use as well.

You would be surprised how much of an average hull you can sensibly do
with a roller, and cutting in round skin fittings, anodes etc. is easier
with a 1" brush than a big one. Why not wash out your brushes BEFORE they
set rock solid though?

Washing them clean seems like a waste of time and gasoline/petrol seeing
that I keep those brushes just for that one job and I am going to use the
same paint on them next season


I've been using a red lanolin based grease called 'Propshield' on the
propeller and it's better than nothing as it keeps the fouling from
sticking hard so it comes off with a pan scourer. The propeller
manufacturer recommended NOT to use paint as they reckoned it increased
the risk of electrolytic pitting.

I have about 3' of exposed stainless steel shaft with an outer cutlass
bearing carried in a skeg just before the bronze Maxprop propeller.
I renew the anode on the shaft annually as it ends up pretty pitted
although there is still a lot of zinc left after one season. Never a trace
of pitting on the propeller, though.

"Edgar" wrote in message
...
I've been using a red lanolin based grease called 'Propshield' on the
propeller and it's better than nothing as it keeps the fouling from
sticking hard so it comes off with a pan scourer. The propeller
manufacturer recommended NOT to use paint as they reckoned it increased
the risk of electrolytic pitting.

I have about 3' of exposed stainless steel shaft with an outer cutlass
bearing carried in a skeg just before the bronze Maxprop propeller.
I renew the anode on the shaft annually as it ends up pretty pitted
although there is still a lot of zinc left after one season. Never a trace
of pitting on the propeller, though.


We used PropSpeed, very carefully applied, very successfully. Took nearly 2
years to wear off, and before then, any critters slid right off under power,
or were easily dislodged with a bump from a plastic brush handle...

How do your end zincs do on your MP? Mine eat away pretty quickly,
usually - and I also use two collar zincs in the shaft in front of the line
cutter and prop.

However, this last time, the collars were entirely gone, while the cone,
while very deteriorated and partly gone, this time, didn't separate at the
mounting bolts as it usually does.

MP problem has usually been that the mounting points give way before the
mass and it slings off, damaging the bolt still attached, if not changed
soon enough (ask me how I know...)

L8R

Skip and crew, near Tilloo Pond with voice-grade WiFi

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in
its hand
(Richard Bach)

"Flying Pig" wrote:

"Edgar" wrote in message
...
I've been using a red lanolin based grease called 'Propshield' on the
propeller and it's better than nothing as it keeps the fouling from
sticking hard so it comes off with a pan scourer. The propeller
manufacturer recommended NOT to use paint as they reckoned it increased
the risk of electrolytic pitting.

We used PropSpeed, very carefully applied, very successfully. Took nearly 2
years to wear off, and before then, any critters slid right off under power,
or were easily dislodged with a bump from a plastic brush handle...

Which is it - PropSpeed or Prop Shield

How do your end zincs do on your MP? Mine eat away pretty quickly,
usually - and I also use two collar zincs in the shaft in front of the line
cutter and prop.

However, this last time, the collars were entirely gone, while the cone,
while very deteriorated and partly gone, this time, didn't separate at the
mounting bolts as it usually does.

Paint the zinc where the mounting holes are so it doesn't eat away
there.

MP problem has usually been that the mounting points give way before the
mass and it slings off, damaging the bolt still attached, if not changed
soon enough (ask me how I know...)

L8R

Skip and crew, near Tilloo Pond with voice-grade WiFi

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
Which is it - PropSpeed or Prop Shield


Speed....

Two part application after 80-grit roughing. First is an etcher to provide
the base, the top being the slippery stuff. Basically yellow in
appearance...

L8R

Skip and crew

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in
its hand
(Richard Bach)

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
How do your end zincs do on your MP? Mine eat away pretty quickly,
usually - and I also use two collar zincs in the shaft in front of the
line cutter and prop.

However, this last time, the collars were entirely gone, while the cone,
while very deteriorated and partly gone, this time, didn't separate at the
mounting bolts as it usually does.

MP problem has usually been that the mounting points give way before the
mass and it slings off, damaging the bolt still attached, if not changed
soon enough (ask me how I know...)

My Maxprop has no end zincs, just a conical bronze pointy nut. Never any
pitting trouble at all on the prop.
I rarely connect to shore power and never for very long and anyway I have an
isolating transformer aboard so if the shore power has a crappy earth any
leakage to earth from outside my boat will have to find some other way back
rather than through my propeller.

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:06:04 +0100, IanM
wrote:

For all you mathematically challenged Leftpondians 1 litre is just under
a US quart.

Bull****. According to the CalculatorThatTakesNoPrisoners[HP48],
[which converts 19 volumn units], one litre equals 1.05668820943 US
quart. About 946 ml to a quart. If you say a litre is about a quart
you aren't far off.

Casady

IanM wrote:

Armond Perretta wrote (on 25 April 2009):
I use a foam
roller and about 3 quarts per coat on this full keel boat with a 22
foot waterline. At this rate every 3 years I've had enough paint on
hand to avoid buying a new gallon.

Well for what its worth, 5 litres of Jotun Seaguardian will do over 4
coats on a full keel 26 footer. That's two coats per year rolled on,

I read it as every third year he avoided buying a new can so that's 2 US
gallons for 3 years and he's reduced to 1 for 2 years by diluting it.

His narrative makes clear that he didn't actually write what he must have
meant: He did write "every 3 years", but obviously meant that after the
3rd year he had enough left not to need to buy more for the 4th year.

Year 1: He buys a gallon and uses 3/4 of it.
Year 2: He uses the rest, buys a 2nd gallon and uses 1/2 of that.
Year 3: He uses the rest, buys a 3rd gallon and uses 1/4 of it.
Year 4: He uses the 3/4 gallon left.

How he got 3 quarts left after two years and reckons to save half by
thinning, I do not know,

He has 3 quarts left after *three* years. But it's obvious that if
he uses the same volume of diluted paint per year as he previously
used of undiluted paint, then if he thins to 75% he can only save a
quarter, not half, and if he thins to 67% he would save a third,
not half. Dare he thin to 50%? It'll be so runny then that it
will probably need to be applied in several coats.

but unless he's measured what's left in the can
accurately I wouldn't believe his 3 quarts per coat.

I don't see why not. Since a quart is about a litre, as you say,
his 3 quarts per year is in the same ballpark as your 2.5 litres
per year.

Unless he's getting more paint on himself and the hard standing he's
slapping it on far thicker than we do as we are doing two coats.

Possibly, but it's neither here nor there whether he puts on one
thick coat or two thin ones, if the combined thickness is about
the same. Or he could have been using the word "coat" to mean
one year's coating even if it was in fact applied in two thin coats.

The biggest saving would be buy a radiator roller handle and the *GOOD*
(i.e. EXPENSIVE) rollers to go on it. A fully loaded large roller is to
heavy and awkward and cheap rollers break up too much and waste paint.
The extra length of the radiator roller handle makes the job go much
quicker with less stooping.

I was really pleased when I "discovered" (followed someone's advice
to use) radiator rollers (for the avoidance of doubt, we're talking
about the small ones, about 5 inches long and 1.5 inches in diameter,
the handle being about 2ft long). They're so much easier to use and
make a quicker job of it than brushes. I also tried ordinary full
size rollers and found them too heavy and went back to the small ones.
But then I tried the big rollers on a long handle, and they really make
fast work of it. They're not too heavy when you hold them with both
hands.

I use cheap rollers and don't understand what you mean about them
breaking up. Nor do I understand why using rad rollers should use
less paint overall.