"Geoffrey W. Schultz" wrote
...... Sounds like a prudent measure to me. You can just
imagine the heat that Immigrations would be under if a terrorist crossed
the boarder using a birth certificate and a license.

Only one flaw in that logic. What does it take to get a passport? Why a
birth certificate and apicture ID (license) of course.

BTW my grandmother ran a boarding house - crossing one of her boarders could
get you shot.

Perhaps instead of hassling
Canadian boaters, the U.S. should stop letting Saudi Arabians have
free rein in the U.S. ...just an observation.

No can do. The Saudi royals, the Bandars and the Bin Ladens are way too
cozy with the Bushies. The Bin Laden's bailed out Dubya's failed oil
business after all, paying a fortune for obviously worthless stock so
that he wouldn't be bankrupt. So hands off the Saudi's! OTOH what have
you Candians done for the Shrub family lately? (hint: money talks)

So what would the passport do to increase security?
I just got a US passort using my birth certificate and
driver's license.


In article
, "Geoffrey
W. Schultz" wrote:
What concerns are being voiced? You're crossing international boarders and
the US wants you to have a passport to reenter instead of some easily
forged documents. Sounds like a prudent measure to me. You can just
imagine the heat that Immigrations would be under if a terrorist crossed
the boarder using a birth certificate and a license.

-- Geoff

plonk Take that political BS back over to wrecked.botes where it doesn't
belong either. Oh yea, TOS abuse complaints to:
,


--


Keith
__
You know you've hit the dock hard if it takes all your bilge pumps running
at full power for you to step onto the dock.
wrote in message
...

No can do. The Saudi snip

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:05:07 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote (with possible editing):

I'd bet money that you were used as a training/practice exercise.

Peggie

Hi Peggie,

No, I read about it either here or maybe can.rec.boating.
Some folks who cruise the Great Lakes were complaining about it.
Since we are about to spend a bit of time on Lake Memphramagog
(between Newport, VT and Canada) I wanted to find out more about it,
so I spoke with border officers up here (border patrol, customs, and
immigration) and nobody seems to know anything about it.)

--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com




rhys wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:22:09 GMT, L. M. Rappaport
wrote:


On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:40:31 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote (with possible editing):


Keith wrote:

This is from the US Customs web site, no mention of a new passport
requirement.
http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/xp/cg...to_the_u_s.xml

That is basically all I can find too but evidently they started warning
everone sometime in June. Could be the web pages have not been updated.
I have e-mailed the Dept of State Passport office asking for an
explanation. Maybe they can shed some light on it.

In addition, I still can't get a straight answer about entering Canada
by water and then returning. There was some talk here earlier about
some form 86 or some such. Nobody at the border seems to know about
it.


I believe it's called an I-68 form.

The bureaucratic hassle and the seemingly capricious attentions of
border officials around Lake Ontario has put off a lot of Canadians
from travelling to upper New York State. I know I won't, which is a
shame (nice people on the south side!), but when you read stories like
the one below (from our YC newsletter), you have to wonder if "the war
on terror" is being conducted by deluded monkeys. Millions are being
spent on intercepting recreational boaters, but you can still drive
unchecked at many spots, and containships still dock unchecked at the
port of New York.

Here's the story. Longish but revealing. Perhaps instead of hassling
Canadian boaters, the U.S. should stop letting Saudi Arabians have
free rein in the U.S. ...just an observation.

Condition Orange by David George

I understand that the U.S. was operating under condition Orange over
Memorial Day weekend, though I thought it was Yellow, maybe even Puce,
when I put on a nice CD and dialled in the GPS waypoint to take us
Niagara on the Lake. Whatever the colour, increased concern had been
expressed throughout the week that something nasty might be, could be,
maybe, in the air. But that was a U.S. thing and I paid it no mind as
I rounded the hazard markers at the end of runway 26 and slaved the
autopilot to the GPS to take us just inside the green buoy at the
entrance to the Niagara River. The brisk North wind lacked the fetch
to kick up much in the way of waves at this point and we set about
making Somersault shipshape in anticipation of some rolling and
rougher weather further along.

There were three of us onboard: myself, my son and his son. Three
generations spanning over sixty years with the youngest not yet three.
It was a big deal for Mason, who just loves the boat and looks for any
excuse to visit it with his grandfather. And to get to steer it even
if it's tied securely to the dock. He also steers sometimes underway,
working the wheel from within Grandpa's arms or having his steering
input being overridden by the hydraulic autopilot that doesn't
understand children and is intent only on following the direction it
has been told to heed.

It looked to be a delightful cruise, mostly for the fraternity
involved. It was still quite cold on the lake, quite windy and we had
left rather later than planned for NOLSC. Mark, my son, was attending
a close friend's wedding and my wife and I would be babysitting Mason
aboard the boat while they were away. Both wives would be driving
over on Saturday and we would all go back, three by sea and two by
road, sort of Paul Revereish, early Sunday morning. That was the
general plan. The only downside was that we would miss Sailpast, an
event that we all enjoyed and, quite unlike last year, this one
promised to be sunny.

Ten nautical miles south, it was a bit rough and I provided Prescott
radio with a condition report, noting that we were out of NYC en route
to NOLSC on the first cruise of the summer. Mason was taking these
conditions in his rather short stride, sitting cheerfully at the lower
helm, incessantly chatting and looking out, occasionally playing with
the wheel. A little later we went up to the fly bridge where it was
cold but the view was great. Mark pointed out a white dot behind and
somewhat east of us that he had been looking at suggesting that it was
on an intercepting course. We had seen very few other boats so far on
the journey and I thought that this one might be out of Ashbridges
Bay, maybe even Bluffers, and heading, as we were, for Niagara.

Somewhat later we could make out that the boat following us was a
police boat, one out of Toronto; a little later still it was
alongside. We waved hello and they waved back but then slowed and
took up a position dead astern before moving to the starboard side.
They then hailed us on the radio and after moving to channel 12 began
to ask questions about our destination, homeport and the number of
people on board. The exchange went on for a few minutes and I asked
them why the intercept, as this was rather unusual in my lake crossing
experience and they explained that it was just a "routine patrol."

There was, as there had been, considerable radio chatter among the
Toronto Marine detachment, the Niagara Marine unit and the US shore
stations, but we paid it little heed until we were about five miles
north of the mouth of the Niagara River. The lake had become quite
rough by then and Somersault was wallowing in the troughs. Mark was
below, Mason was having a nap and I was busy hand steering to try and
improve on the autopilot's performance in the following seas. Ahead I
could make out a boat coming out of the river headed directly for us
and as it got closer, yes, it was the Niagara Marine unit. They
passed close alongside and then lay astern for a bit. Then I heard
them on the radio and following them through the channels could hear
them in contact with Toronto and the U.S. Marine station chatting and
enquiring where the U.S. Border Patrol unit was at that time. I
checked the GPS and chart. We were still in Canadian waters and would
remain in Canadian waters until we reached NOLSC. In any event, the
Border Patrol unit turned out to be some distance away. I could only
pay some attention to all of this because I was very busy steering
and, through inattention, had already tipped many things over down
below while distracted by the radio traffic.

About an hour later we docked on the wall at NOLSC. Mason told me
that, "Lots of things fell on the bed Papa, but I didn't fall off,"
and I apologised for the bumpiness. While we tidied up, the Niagara
Police boat came by and hovered close to port asking where we were
from (Toronto), were we here for the races (No -for a wedding. I
don't know what rating system or handicap a trawler would likely have
anyway), was this where we were staying (yes) and when were we leaving
(Sunday morning). Then they left.

Friday night, we saw occasional small boats moving on both sides of
the river. One of these launched from a trailer on the U.S. side came
over to NOLSC and went into the town. A few hours later they came
back, crossed the river and hauled out on the same trailer. I thought
that kind of traffic constituted more of a threat to Homeland Security
than my travelling from Canadian port to Canadian port in Canadian
waters.

On Saturday, the U.S. Border Patrol came over in their high-speed
Zodiac, with almost 500 HP on the transom, to fuel up. I asked them
about all this activity, their concerns about the local traffic and
the focus there seem to be on boats from Toronto. One of the officers
explained that, indeed, they were concentrating on Toronto traffic to
nearby U.S. ports and that the Canadian and U.S. marine forces were
working together on patrols. The cross-river traffic, while a
concern, was being monitored, he said, by cameras on the US side. The
main threat was seen to be from the Toronto region.

The wedding, I'm sure, was marvellous, though uneventful from a
boating viewpoint, and I got the chance to spend lots of quality time
with my grandson. By Sunday, he had slept on the boat two consecutive
nights and was quite comfortable with it. After brunch, the ladies
went back to Toronto by car and the men and boyfolk were set to go
back by boat. However, the groom, why I don't know, expressed a
desire to go for a short cruise, not in the lake but in the river,
because he gets seasick quite easily. He is a good friend of my son,
so Somersault was pressed into service for a short river cruise before
venturing out on the lake to return home. I took out the river chart
and planned to voyage up to Queenston, very near the site where Brock
protected the main portage into the western wilderness from falling in
unwelcome hands, defeated the Americans and, essentially, gave birth
to Canada as a nation. Of course, at the time I was still a cellular
form in some Newfoundlander's DNA stream and it wasn't until many,
many years later that, then a Canadian, I came to appreciate the
significance of the event.

Going up river was a slow process and was taking much longer than I
had anticipated. Mark, Mason and the Groom lounged around on the bow.
Mason fell asleep standing at the Samson post and Mark carried him
below for his midday nap.

Ahead the river narrowed, Queenston still seemed a long time away
given the current and there was a U.S. Coast Guard boat, on what
appeared to be very much the Canadian side, with its lights flashing
tied alongside a small fishing boat. It appeared to be patrolling the
upper part of the river - maybe even denying access above the turn -
though I had seen this boat go by NOLSC not all that long ago. Given
the time, the trip back to Toronto that still had to be made, the
number of encounters I had already had with marine officials and the
likelihood that I would be stopped if I tried to venture further, I
gave up and turned to run down stream.

Now we were making progress. The GPS reported better than 10 knots
over the ground - a terrific speed for us 8-knot cruisers. Mark
returned from tucking Mason in to tell me that the USCG boat was now
racing our way with lights flashing. Very soon it was close astern
and, over a bullhorn, ordering me to stop the boat and put it in
neutral. Typical Canadian, I immediately complied.

Somersault was stopped and then began to swing broadside to the wind
and current, drifting sideways down the river. That's her usual
stance when at rest and at the mercy of wind or current. The Coast
Guard then ordered over the horn that I set the rudder to head up into
the current. I yelled back that this was the way the boat drifts when
not underway and that there was nothing short of powering up again
that would change it. They then let me know that they intended to
board.

In over thirty years on Lake Ontario and in all the years that had
gone before I have never been boarded. Sure, it happens, but this
was new to me. I'm rather proud of the condition of my boat and the
big black rubrail on the USCG aluminium Zodiac was somewhat
threatening in the active river current. However, we had fenders
already temporally rigged on the starboard to drop off the groom back
at NOLSC. That was now downstream and the USCG boat was asked to come
around to that side after we lowered the fenders already there. They
did and pushed the Zodiac tightly against Somersault (breaking a
fender holder in the process) while two armed officers hopped over the
rail. The groom was finding this almost more interesting than the
wedding. He was a Canadian, like the rest of us, but on this wedding
morning after left his bride's side (still I had no idea why) with
minimal documentation, not expecting he would need a passport to go
for a short trip up the river. What he did have in the way of ID was
only a New Jersey driver's licence, because that's where he works. He
was uneasy. Having made two turns and been drifting for some time God
only knows whether we were now in Canadian or US jurisdiction, or even
if it mattered.

The Coast Guardees were firm but polite. "Where is the owner," they
asked? "You the owner? Get the registration and ownership papers.
Where's your ID? Let's all go in the cabin," they suggested as the
Zodiac and its helmsman pulled away.

I asked what the problem was, why we were being boarded and was told
that this was an inspection. I got the registration papers, there
being some confusion as to the lack of registration numbers on the
hull - this being a Canadian Registered boat. I think they use the
term "Documented," in any event they were eventually satisfied with
the officious looking document I presented and they recorded the
official number as the registration number anyway on their rather
complicated form. They fussed about my ID but did not ask for IDs of
the others. They then asked about safety gear. I was a member of the
CMRA, essentially the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary and, for several
years gave presentations as a Boating Safety Advisor and courtesy
inspections as Courtesy Small Vessel Examiner as well, I had taught
Power Squadron courses and had all the required operator permits and
more than sufficient and current safety equipment on board. As it
became increasing apparent that I had been quite involved in boating
myself, and that they were unlikely to find anything out of order, the
tension seemed to ease though they insisted on finishing the report
and giving me a copy noting, but only at the end, the Lat. and Long we
had drifted to, as shown on my GPS.

I asked why the boarding. It seemed to be rather pointed at this
vessel. Yes, they agreed, they knew of Somersault and that we had
been challenged two or three times already - they had also listened to
my conversation on Friday with Prescott and my "…filing of my sail
plan" with Prescott Radio, and had made note of it. They knew all
about when I arrived, why I was here and when I would be going back.
So why the boarding? "Just routine," was the explanation.

Bull. There is more going on here than just routine. "Yes," confirms
the Toronto Harbour Police, where a Sgt. Goodwin is heading up a Task
Force, "You are likely to see much more of this, this year and over
the years to come," was the comment when I called. Goodwin was very
helpful in explaining that new rules and regulations, the Marine
Transportation Security Regulations, would come into effect on July 1
but that, even now, there was much increased surveillance of
cross-lake pleasure boat traffic from all relevant agencies. The
International Ship and Port Facility Security (ISPS) Code targets
commercial traffic but the effects will apply, essentially, to all
vessels travelling between countries.

He explained that the USCG have the right, in US waters, to board any
vessel at will and, if a vessel enters US waters, they may even have
the obligation to do so. The other agencies usually rely on some
indication of cause before going that far, but not the USCG. The
Sergeant commented that respecting sovereignty was an issue in the
Niagara region and that the borders were to be respected and did
establish relevant jurisdiction. And he noted that there were many
more USCG and U.S. Border Patrol vessels operating on the U.S. side
these days, all with a mandate to be very vigilant. In some eyes,
Canada is seen to leak terrorists into the U.S. and, says Goodwin, the
fact that only 10% of the 18,000 boaters in the region checked in with
U.S. Customs last year leads them to conclude that there is a lot of
unreported marine traffic between the two countries.

So there has been a fundamental change in area boaters' freedom to
travel even from Canadian port to Canadian port, especially if those
ports are anywhere to the south of Toronto. Before you venture
southwards, make sure to file a float plan at the club fully
indicating your intentions. And carry vessel registration and
suitable ID documents with you. It's also a good idea to be up to
date with all safety and licence requirements. It's a different
watery world out there this year. The first of many.

The Boy Scouts said it best: Be Prepared.

I doubt that anyone in this news group can speak with definitive knowledge
as to what kind of checks are done when you apply for a passport. If there
are problems with authenticating the validity of the passport application,
then that's a separate issue which is not at the heart of the discussion
here. Don't confuse/mix the subjects.

And it still comes down to: What's the problem with requiring a passport
for international travel? I'm a cruiser who has had to get additional
pages added into my passport to handle all of the stamps from various
countries that we've visited while sailing. This is just a standard
document that's needed everywhere in the world for international travel.
To imply that the US government is doing something wrong by requiring a
passport for people entering the US from foreign countries is folley.

-- Geoff

(Scott McQ) wrote in
:

So what would the passport do to increase security?
I just got a US passort using my birth certificate and
driver's license.


In article
, "Geoffrey
W. Schultz" wrote:
What concerns are being voiced? You're crossing international
boarders and the US wants you to have a passport to reenter instead of
some easily forged documents. Sounds like a prudent measure to me.
You can just imagine the heat that Immigrations would be under if a
terrorist crossed the boarder using a birth certificate and a license.

-- Geoff

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:47:41 -0400, rhys wrote (with
possible editing):

I believe it's called an I-68 form.

Yes, that's it. Thanks.

your narrative -

I would like to apologize for my countrymen. Yes, I find it
incredibly stupid that they can spend so much time chasing pleasure
boaters all the while allowing containerships free reign. It just
doesn't make sense, and if I were a terrorist, I would certainly take
note.

That said, and living on the border, I could relate some similar
stories about a few Canadian border officials. One, in particular,
insulted my wife who happens to be extremely hard of hearing, even
with two expensive hearing aids. That caused me to lodge a formal
complaint, although nothing was done about it.

I think the problem is twofold: both countries give their border
officials quite broad powers - powers beyond what a law enforcement
official would normally have at least in this country. Some of these
officials are, uhh, less than sterling in their character and tend to
take advantage of what they see to be their elevated status.

It happens on both sides, Rhys, and, again, I'm sorry.

Best,
--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com

Thanks, Jack,

Apparently things have changed. If I read correctly, this
just allows you to skip US checkin, but it isn't required if you do.
That has changed from what I learned earlier. Surprised the local
border folk don't seem to know about it, though. Maybe it was because
I had the wrong number.

Again, thanks,
--

Larry
Email to rapp at lmr dot com

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:48:16 GMT, Jack Dale
wrote (with possible editing):

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:22:09 GMT, L. M. Rappaport
wrote:



In addition, I still can't get a straight answer about entering Canada
by water and then returning. There was some talk here earlier about
some form 86 or some such. Nobody at the border seems to know about
it.

The form is I-68. http://uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/i-68.htm

There is some information at:

http://uscis.gov/graphics/publicaffa...oatlanding.htm

Jack

_________________________________________________ _
Jack Dale
Swiftsure Sailing Academy
Director/ISPA and CYA Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
Phone: 1 (877) 470-SAIL (toll free)
_________________________________________________ _

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:48:23 GMT, L. M. Rappaport
wrote:

Yes, that's it. Thanks.

No problem.

your narrative -

I would like to apologize for my countrymen.

That's entirely unnecessary....and not only because it wasn't me it
happened to, but a pal at my club I was quoting. But thanks for the
sentiment.

The latest round of "security measures" affect ALL boaters
equally...if not necessarily coherently or effectively.

Yes, I find it
incredibly stupid that they can spend so much time chasing pleasure
boaters all the while allowing containerships free reign. It just
doesn't make sense, and if I were a terrorist, I would certainly take
note.

I hope they haven't. A few friends and I recently spent an evening
drinking beer and writing on a notepad the various ways a terrorist
with an ounce of initiative and the sort of explosives knowledge
available to a road builder could kill a lot of infidel Westerners. By
the time we determined driving an LPG tanker with 50 lbs of powered
cesium on deck into a shoreline tank farm in New Jersey would be
devastatingly, Hiroshima-scale effective, we had scared ourselves
completely sober. Which is no state for a sailor on dry land to
endure...G

That said, and living on the border, I could relate some similar
stories about a few Canadian border officials.

Like I said, Americans and Canadians suffer jointly from jumped-up
autocrats who were generally too stupid to get into the cops and now
have vast powers...

One, in particular,
insulted my wife who happens to be extremely hard of hearing, even
with two expensive hearing aids. That caused me to lodge a formal
complaint, although nothing was done about it.

I would suggest you approach a Toronto newspaper or the nearest
Canadian city on the north shore with your story. Canadians cherish
the illusion they are polite and courteous, and rude officials will
catch hell for abusing visitors...especially "disabled" ones.

So go public and watch the roasting begin. As a Canadian, I want our
maritime laws enforced, but POLITELY. Most people on the water are OK,
but you get the occasional idiot.

I think the problem is twofold: both countries give their border
officials quite broad powers - powers beyond what a law enforcement
official would normally have at least in this country. Some of these
officials are, uhh, less than sterling in their character and tend to
take advantage of what they see to be their elevated status.

Exactly. Jail guards and drill sergeants can exhibit the same
behaviour...making a tough job tougher


It happens on both sides, Rhys, and, again, I'm sorry.

It does, and I'm sorry your wife was treated poorly. Boating should be
fun, not some Gestapo roust. How this is supposed to make us "safe" is
beyond me.

R.

On July 21 2004, you wrote:
Take that political BS back over to wrecked.botes

OIC, you can talk about lost wars and such but inist on restricting the
rest.

"Some people can't handle the truth"

Oh yeah: TOS abuse complaints to: