On Apr 7, 6:03*am, wrote:
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:43:09 -0500, Geoff Schultz



wrote:
jeff wrote :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
Jeff wrote :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
...
Regarding the commercial postings: *It always amazes me how there
are members of this group and others who think there are some
official rules which dictate what can be posted here. *I've
certainly never see any such thing, and I used to run an ISP.
There may be suggestions, but no rules.
Of course there are rules. *They where set forth when the group was
created:

rec.boats.cruising * * *Cruising in boats.

CHARTER

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will be open
to discussions on all topics related to cruising in boats such as:
* * * * - cruising equipment
* * * * - cruising reports
* * * * - destinations: Including where to moor/anchor, restaurants
* * * * to
visit, sights to see and where/how to provision
* * * * - discussion of long-distance passagemaking and related
* * * * issues - discussion on navigation
* * * * - requests for crews and for boats to crew on
* * * * - upcoming events, cruises, etc
* * * * - etc.

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will not be
open to for-sale postings. *Appropriate advertisements should be
directed to rec.boats.marketplace.

It is hoped that a FAQ will be developed.

This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and
software posted to news groups. *I agree that I don't want to see
these news groups filled up with commercial posting. *

There are some that feel that if a rule isn't enforced, it doesn't
really exist. *I'm sure the Berny Madoff felt that way.

When was the last time that anyone posted these "rules" to this news
group? *And when was this posted and to where? *

Its been a few years. *But the issue of commercial posts is discussed
several time a year, with very few people indeed saying they think it
would be good if everyone who has a product or boat to sell posted
here.

It's my guess that this
was before anyone could create any group that they want and there was
going to be some form of control over groups. *Clearly that went out
of the window many, many years ago. *These are nice suggestions, not
rules.

No, they are the rules. *Your only point is that they are
unenforcible.

And there are also rules against posting using fake
addresses/psuedonyms, etc. *Clearly no one follows them in here. *

Is this a confession? *Actually, most of the posters have used only
one handle, and many have identified themselves. *The fact that
several choose not to does not mean we have all left the pale of
civilized behavior. *Actually, I'm inclined to believe the story that
Neil died and Wilbur is his "legacy" because until a few years ago
Neil did not engage much in sock puppets.

You can't select to follow
some rules and not others.

Isn't that exactly what you are suggesting? *That everyone should
simply pick the rules they want to follow? *Or are you suggesting that
we make a point of breaking all rules? *ASA is an example of that
path.

Guess what, this is the Internet! *RBC isn't far ahead of ASA. *There are
no hard and fast rules. *There are only suggestions. *Tell me how you, or
anyone will keep commercial postings away. *If you look at the count of
posters here, you'll see a steady decline over the years. *News groups
are well out of the main stream and headed down hill. *Within a few years
it will just be a memory which is hung onto by a few diehards. *

Personally I would much rather ban Neal/Wilbur/et-al and all of his sock
puppets than the occasional commercial posting. *Wilbur and his sock-
puppets have done more to discourage posting to these newsgroups than any
commercial posting. *There's reasons why they don't post to forums. *
They'd be shut down/banned/whatever within days. *These unmoderated,
subscription-free posts are their only source of bile-based puke that
they have.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Not many web forums will tolerate commercial postings. As far as
enforcement on a usenet group, Ben has been asked to refrain from
doing it, and told why. That is usually enough "enforcement" for
anyone who is trying to make friends and build a business. If not,
there is, in fact, recourse.

Well, I did look for the forum rules before posting and did not find
them. I understand the rules now and I make it a point not to spam
boards with useless sales info. However, I do see a mutually
beneficial relationship that has developed on other boards between
vendor and casual poster. By drawing the line between useful industry
knowledge that all everybody can use and cluttering up the group with
relentless spam, I receive exposure and the reinforcement of our
abilities and you receive my experiences and said useful knowledge.
What do people think about that?

"Ben Atkins" wrote in message
...

Well, I did look for the forum rules before posting and did not find
them. I understand the rules now and I make it a point not to spam
boards with useless sales info. However, I do see a mutually
beneficial relationship that has developed on other boards between
vendor and casual poster. By drawing the line between useful industry
knowledge that all everybody can use and cluttering up the group with
relentless spam, I receive exposure and the reinforcement of our
abilities and you receive my experiences and said useful knowledge.
What do people think about that?

I see little wrong with it, myself. However, if I might suggest a different
tack: Taking part in discussions and adding your URL to your sig is a widely
accepted method of promoting yourself without appearing blatantly
commercial.

KLC Lewis
www.cafepress.com/tmen
www.KLCLewisStudios.com

"Ben Atkins" wrote in message
...
snip for clarity
Well, I did look for the forum rules before posting and did not find
them. I understand the rules now and I make it a point not to spam
boards with useless sales info. However, I do see a mutually
beneficial relationship that has developed on other boards between
vendor and casual poster. By drawing the line between useful industry
knowledge that all everybody can use and cluttering up the group with
relentless spam, I receive exposure and the reinforcement of our
abilities and you receive my experiences and said useful knowledge.
What do people think about that?


I think on some level it's a matter of the style of the posting. In your
original post, it seemed to be more of an info-mercial rather than a call
for comments. For example, you said you have a great reputation, then the
next poster pointed out a problem. Instead, you could have posted something
like... we do thus-and-such, has anyone experienced good, bad, or
indifferent with our product? Then, assuming Jeff posted the same thing, you
could followed up publically about how you have or will remedy the
situation. The discussion would then be focused on your products and/or
willingness to accept criticism, try to deal with the problem, etc., vs.
lack of nettiquette.

There's a lot to be said about a vender/potential customer relationship
developing on Usenet. I've seen this happen many times on other sailing
forums, but you can't just take some marketing language and cut and paste.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Apr 7, 8:54*am, Ben Atkins wrote:
On Apr 7, 6:03*am, wrote:





On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:43:09 -0500, Geoff Schultz

wrote:
jeff wrote :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
Jeff wrote :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
...
Regarding the commercial postings: *It always amazes me how there
are members of this group and others who think there are some
official rules which dictate what can be posted here. *I've
certainly never see any such thing, and I used to run an ISP.
There may be suggestions, but no rules.
Of course there are rules. *They where set forth when the group was
created:

rec.boats.cruising * * *Cruising in boats.

CHARTER

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will be open
to discussions on all topics related to cruising in boats such as:
* * * * - cruising equipment
* * * * - cruising reports
* * * * - destinations: Including where to moor/anchor, restaurants
* * * * to
visit, sights to see and where/how to provision
* * * * - discussion of long-distance passagemaking and related
* * * * issues - discussion on navigation
* * * * - requests for crews and for boats to crew on
* * * * - upcoming events, cruises, etc
* * * * - etc.

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will not be
open to for-sale postings. *Appropriate advertisements should be
directed to rec.boats.marketplace.

It is hoped that a FAQ will be developed.

This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and
software posted to news groups. *I agree that I don't want to see
these news groups filled up with commercial posting. *

There are some that feel that if a rule isn't enforced, it doesn't
really exist. *I'm sure the Berny Madoff felt that way.

When was the last time that anyone posted these "rules" to this news
group? *And when was this posted and to where? *

Its been a few years. *But the issue of commercial posts is discussed
several time a year, with very few people indeed saying they think it
would be good if everyone who has a product or boat to sell posted
here.

It's my guess that this
was before anyone could create any group that they want and there was
going to be some form of control over groups. *Clearly that went out
of the window many, many years ago. *These are nice suggestions, not
rules.

No, they are the rules. *Your only point is that they are
unenforcible.

And there are also rules against posting using fake
addresses/psuedonyms, etc. *Clearly no one follows them in here. *

Is this a confession? *Actually, most of the posters have used only
one handle, and many have identified themselves. *The fact that
several choose not to does not mean we have all left the pale of
civilized behavior. *Actually, I'm inclined to believe the story that
Neil died and Wilbur is his "legacy" because until a few years ago
Neil did not engage much in sock puppets.

You can't select to follow
some rules and not others.

Isn't that exactly what you are suggesting? *That everyone should
simply pick the rules they want to follow? *Or are you suggesting that
we make a point of breaking all rules? *ASA is an example of that
path.

Guess what, this is the Internet! *RBC isn't far ahead of ASA. *There are
no hard and fast rules. *There are only suggestions. *Tell me how you, or
anyone will keep commercial postings away. *If you look at the count of
posters here, you'll see a steady decline over the years. *News groups
are well out of the main stream and headed down hill. *Within a few years
it will just be a memory which is hung onto by a few diehards. *

Personally I would much rather ban Neal/Wilbur/et-al and all of his sock
puppets than the occasional commercial posting. *Wilbur and his sock-
puppets have done more to discourage posting to these newsgroups than any
commercial posting. *There's reasons why they don't post to forums. *
They'd be shut down/banned/whatever within days. *These unmoderated,
subscription-free posts are their only source of bile-based puke that
they have.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Not many web forums will tolerate commercial postings. As far as
enforcement on a usenet group, Ben has been asked to refrain from
doing it, and told why. That is usually enough "enforcement" for
anyone who is trying to make friends and build a business. If not,
there is, in fact, recourse.

Well, I did look for the forum rules before posting and did not find
them. I understand the rules now and I make it a point not to spam
boards with useless sales info. However, I do see a mutually
beneficial relationship that has developed on other boards between
vendor and casual poster. By drawing the line between useful industry
knowledge that all everybody can use and cluttering up the group with
relentless spam, I receive exposure and the reinforcement of our
abilities and you receive my experiences and said useful knowledge.
What do people think about that?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Greetings Ben,

Thanks for posting your link to boat related products. It's refreshing
someone willing to go on a public forum and talk about his products.

It's amazing how many ignore purse,and tennis shoes spam, but jump on
anyone with a boat related product.

If I need a set of yacht davits yours look pretty good.

Regards,

Joe
El Lago Coffee Co.
www.ellagocoffee.com

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Joe
wrote:



Greetings Ben,

Thanks for posting your link to boat related products. It's refreshing
someone willing to go on a public forum and talk about his products.

It's amazing how many ignore purse,and tennis shoes spam, but jump on
anyone with a boat related product.


You noticed that too?
We both must like coffee keeping our eyes open.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Joe
wrote:



Greetings Ben,

Thanks for posting your link to boat related products. It's refreshing
someone willing to go on a public forum and talk about his products.

It's amazing how many ignore purse,and tennis shoes spam, but jump on
anyone with a boat related product.


You noticed that too?
We both must like coffee keeping our eyes open.

--Vic

For my own part, I assume that those spamming purses, tennis shoes and
Genuine Rolex Copies, etc., won't be back to read any replies or
complaints -- so why bother?

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:47:59 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Joe
wrote:



Greetings Ben,

Thanks for posting your link to boat related products. It's refreshing
someone willing to go on a public forum and talk about his products.

It's amazing how many ignore purse,and tennis shoes spam, but jump on
anyone with a boat related product.


You noticed that too?
We both must like coffee keeping our eyes open.

--Vic

For my own part, I assume that those spamming purses, tennis shoes and
Genuine Rolex Copies, etc., won't be back to read any replies or
complaints -- so why bother?

That's true. I was really addressing Joe's first sentence.
Manufacturers can give good insights into their products.
Seen it on web forums.
Nobody has to take what they say as gospel.
They do open themselves to abuse here, and have to be careful how they
react - in the interest of the company they represent.
The larger point to me is if they show up they should be engaged as
you would engage them face-to-face.
No sense chasing them out when they can contribute knowledge.
Somebody mentioned Peggy Hall as an example.
I tend to take that tack.
This place is often a swamp, and if the water is cleared a bit I won't
complain that the clearing tool has a label on it.

--Vic

--Vic

On Apr 7, 5:27*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:47:59 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:







"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Joe
wrote:

Greetings Ben,

Thanks for posting your link to boat related products. It's refreshing
someone willing to go on a public forum and talk about his products.

It's amazing how many ignore purse,and tennis shoes spam, but jump on
anyone with a boat related product.

You noticed that too?
We both must like coffee keeping our eyes open.

--Vic

For my own part, I assume that those spamming purses, tennis shoes and
Genuine Rolex Copies, etc., won't be back to read any replies or
complaints -- so why bother?

That's true. *I was really addressing Joe's first sentence.
Manufacturers can give good insights into their products.
Seen it on web forums.
Nobody has to take what they say as gospel.
They do open themselves to abuse here, and have to be careful how they
react - in the interest of the company they represent.
The larger point to me is if they show up they should be engaged as
you would engage them face-to-face.
No sense chasing them out when they can contribute knowledge.
Somebody mentioned Peggy Hall as an example.
I tend to take that tack.
This place is often a swamp, and if the water is cleared a bit I won't
complain that the clearing tool has a label on it.

--Vic

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said Vic,

Ben's been in the biz all his life, and could bring a wealth of
Nautical knowledge to this place.

I have a few questions I'd like to ask concerning ports I bet he
could answer.

Like... why are only one or two outfits making nice bronze ports? With
the sky high prices these people charge there seems to be room for
more vendors. I bet Ben has a dozen old molds his dad used in WWII
just laying around un-used.

Joe

On Apr 7, 7:18*pm, Joe wrote:
On Apr 7, 5:27*pm, Vic Smith wrote:



On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:47:59 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Joe
wrote:

Greetings Ben,

Thanks for posting your link to boat related products. It's refreshing
someone willing to go on a public forum and talk about his products.

It's amazing how many ignore purse,and tennis shoes spam, but jump on
anyone with a boat related product.

You noticed that too?
We both must like coffee keeping our eyes open.

--Vic

For my own part, I assume that those spamming purses, tennis shoes and
Genuine Rolex Copies, etc., won't be back to read any replies or
complaints -- so why bother?

That's true. *I was really addressing Joe's first sentence.
Manufacturers can give good insights into their products.
Seen it on web forums.
Nobody has to take what they say as gospel.
They do open themselves to abuse here, and have to be careful how they
react - in the interest of the company they represent.
The larger point to me is if they show up they should be engaged as
you would engage them face-to-face.
No sense chasing them out when they can contribute knowledge.
Somebody mentioned Peggy Hall as an example.
I tend to take that tack.
This place is often a swamp, and if the water is cleared a bit I won't
complain that the clearing tool has a label on it.

--Vic

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said Vic,

*Ben's been in the biz all his life, and could bring a wealth of
Nautical knowledge to this place.

*I have a few questions I'd like to ask concerning ports I bet he
could answer.

Like... why are only one or two outfits making nice bronze ports? With
the sky high prices these people charge there seems to be room for
more vendors. I bet Ben has a dozen old molds his dad used in WWII
just laying around un-used.

Joe

Thank you Joe and Vic. I hope people can see the difference between
faceless spamming and an honest effort to engage with the consumer.

Joe, all those patterns are used today. Everything we cast is
Almag-35, an aluminum-magnesium alloy. We used to cast in bronze but
it became more expensive with more stringent environmental
regulations. From our perspective, the market for cast bronze ports is
very small, as we usually deal with individual clients instead of boat
builders these days. In my opinion, cast Almag is actually a superior
material to use for the majority of situations.

Ben Atkins
Atkins & Hoyle Ltd.
www.atkinshoyle.com

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
That's true. I was really addressing Joe's first sentence.
Manufacturers can give good insights into their products.
Seen it on web forums.
Nobody has to take what they say as gospel.
They do open themselves to abuse here, and have to be careful how they
react - in the interest of the company they represent.
The larger point to me is if they show up they should be engaged as
you would engage them face-to-face.
No sense chasing them out when they can contribute knowledge.
Somebody mentioned Peggy Hall as an example.
I tend to take that tack.
This place is often a swamp, and if the water is cleared a bit I won't
complain that the clearing tool has a label on it.

--Vic

--Vic

I couldn't agree more.